Hearthpwn

I often see people complain about “mana cheat,” but what exactly is “mana cheat”?

Is “mana cheat” only for cards that say “costs less,” or does it include any card that allows you to do big things with little mana? Almost every deck we play and enjoy includes cards that let us do significant actions with minimal mana. For example, Razzle-Dazzler, Gorgonzormu, Product 9, Carefree Cookie (with the evolve mechanic), Wave of Nostalgia, Travelmaster Dungar, Chemical Spill, etc.

Additionally, nearly every deck we use includes at least one card that says “costs less.” These types of cards are often fan favorites, like Marin the Manager, Reska, the Ceaseless Expanse, Exarch Maladaar, Sea Shill, Eonar, Golganneth, Pop’gar, Table Flip, Eredar Brute, and some of the titans’ abilities (Amitus, Primus, Argus), as well as Fye and many others.

Has there ever been a card game in history that didn’t include “mana cheat” in its gameplay? Isn’t it a core part of every card game?

Do people truly dislike “mana cheat”? As I mentioned, many people love the cards I listed, like Marin the Manager, some of the titans, Reska, and the Ceaseless Expanse, Fye, etc.

Moreover, I realize that mana cheat is necessary to make some cards viable. Do you think cards like Travelmaster Dungar, Sunset Volley, Magtheridon, Tsunami, Enhanced Dreadlord, Pipsi, etc., would be viable without mana cheat?

Mana cheating is apart of most card games. Its REALLY bad in Magic the Gathering. When you can get out your spicy Etali, Primal Sickness early and start dunking on peasants its a delight. Most of us who don't like it are running slower decks with less control options. So when your opponent summons an army/powerful minion you're basically screwed while they pummel you.

The complains are paradoxal. Funny enough people don't complain much about power creeping draw effects, that IMO are the main reason why mana cheat becomes a problem. Classic druid had even better mana gain abilities than now, but when they had the draw and armor to pull of the nasty plays we saw innervate and wild growth nerfed substantially :)

At the end of the day, mana is just another number that can be tweaked for card design, but also one that can make very unfun play patterns happen, while stats are easier to counter with better hard removal.

Does it matter whether the giant got cheaper or the man got bigger? 

With mage, you dont even have to mana cheat, you just cheat out cards anyway

It's not something applied consistently. A lot of players will immediately roll their eyes and feel they've been taken advantage of the instant an opponent plays four or more cards in a turn. Any kind of swing turn or powerful play is a crime. In reality, that play is just what the opponent's deck does, and assuming that deck isn't SSSS tier, it's something other decent decks can deal with. Instead of policing mana cheat broadly, we should police specific powerful instances of it that actually constitute a problem.

There can be a problem if the game is too fast or too combo centric, or if a deck's high roll blowouts are too impossible to deal with. Mana cheating can create those situations. But removing anything classified as mana cheat would remove a lot of the push and pull, ups and downs of a good game. Some people might authentically enjoy a card game without it better, where you're playing 1-2 cards every turn and jockeying for small leads, and those are valid feelings. But gaming offers a wide variety of experiences, and this game is the way it is. And I happen to like this era.

Quote from YourPersonalGuru >>

The complains are paradoxal. Funny enough people don't complain much about power creeping draw effects, that IMO are the main reason why mana cheat becomes a problem.

 So much this. Aggro decks just don't run out of cards these days and control decks can't even hold all their card generating cards in their hand anymore. People are getting pissed off at quasar rogue and they don't realize the issue is that rogue can fill their deck with 20 cards that draw more cards all costing under 3. Arcane giant rogue in wild is broken for the same reason.

Quote from OhGodOhNo >>

Instead of policing mana cheat broadly, we should police specific powerful instances of it that actually constitute a problem.

That's right. One of my motivations for this post is to sarcastically talk about those who complain a lot about ‘mana cheat,’ even though almost all of their decks contain it. I’m sure the people who complain about mana cheat are the same ones who love Marin the Manager, Eonar, Golganneth, Reska, the Ceaseless Expanse, Fye, Table Flip, Pop’gar, Eredar Brute, and some of the Titans’ abilities (like Amitus, Primus, and Argus), Exarch Maladaar, etc.

We all love mana cheat. Mana cheat is fun, but too much of it is bad and should be fixed.

I would define mana cheat as anything which gives you more than the typical "output per cost".  What's definied as "typical" has probably changed over time, but the premis remains the same.

To elaborate using minions as an example, everyone is familiar with the concept of "vanilla stats" - a minion which costs X and does nothing else will have a/b stats - a 4 mana 4/5 the classic yeti!  The sum of the value of a/b relative to X is fixed (kinda).  Minions with a strong effect tend to have lower a/b while those with a negative effect should have a greater a/b.  The same principle was true for spells/weapons as well.  2 mana deal 3 for example.  3 mana draw 2. etc.

Using this criteria it's clear that there are now a whole lot of "mana cheat" cards in Hearthstone and it is (imo) the primary means by which decks win and/or become problematic.  Is mana cheat inherantly bad?  I don't think so.   Indeed I think the whole point of card games is to identify the combinations of cards which are greater than the sum of their parts - which is basically my original definition of mana cheat.  But when mana cheat becomes so prevelant that mana becomes largely irrelevant, you've undermined one of the key mechanics in the game (power = mana).

In it's simplest form, mana cheat is that it's often packaged and sold as a tradeoff; a benefit for a cost.  The trouble is, often the benefit is so great or the cost so small (or potentially even beneficial/negated entirely), that all you're left with is the benefit and an undercosted card.

Take elemental decks - the "limitation" is the elemental chain.  Yet these decks have overstatted minions and powerful effects for their cost - the limitation doesn't seem that relevant.  It's very rare for an elemental deck to break the chain of elementals or run out of cards.  I'm not saying that its not a limitation (clearly the decks need to be designed in a certain way), just that the limitation feels ralteively minor. The introduction of Blazing Accretion is a perfect example - a functional 3 mana, draw 3, elemental with a "downside".  It's true that this downside does mean that the card isn't run outside of elemental decks, but in elemental decks it's a powerhouse.

Other forms of mana cheat might include "for each time you did X, gain Y or reduce mana cost by Z". This type of mana cheat has a strict condition which, if it's too easy to fulfil, just becomes a net benefit (take Reska, the Pit Boss for example).  A very powerful card which basically costs 0 mana after about turn 6 or 7.  For cards like Reska, the Pit Boss and The Ceaseless Expanse you're not even actually doing anything other than playing the game.  It's tricky to balance such cards.

tldr some mana cheat makes games good, but too much makes game bad!

p.s. I think the un-nerfed Marin the Manager was a particularly egregious mana cheating card particularly due to the potential to high-roll the result.  3 mana draw three is already be decent (by classic hearthstone standards), but discounting them to 0 was slightly absurd.

p.p.s I think outside of very niche situations "not less than 1" should be a basic principle for mana discounts. You should need to spend something for the outcome...