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Seriously, this card in some form is in almost all decks.
That is not okay, that is bad card design. When nearly all archetypes and classes want to use it, it's obviously broken.
"But he has different forms which play to different strengths"... And what? Doesn't change the fact that it's one card that appears in the majority of decks. It's so predictable yet you can't do anything about it. You can't even play around it because obviously it leans into whatever archetype of the deck you're playing.
Extra 6 damage to face on turn 4 for free plus a 3/5? Sure. Heal to full HP from under 10 and destroy enemy board despite playing no other minion for 8 turns? Sure. Aggro hates it, control hates it, even midrange finds a spot for it.
Get this shit out of standard ASAP please. It's unfun to play with and unfun to play against. I see it every game, it's contributing to standard being a worse place.
If all of your matches are decided by ‘ah damn my opponent just played Ziliax I lose’ then you probably already lost.
The whole point is that it is different cards. It isn't one card, it's a set of different cards you can't include in the same deck.
High playrate doesn't make something automatically bad. It means people want to use it.
And Why do people want to use it (or any other card with a high play rate)? because it's a "fun" card?
I'm impartial in this discussion, by the way. I am just asking you.
You answered your own question.
You Hearthstone players are so weird. Your definition of a "fun card" seems to be an "extremely overpowered card that wins the game."
What exactly is "fun" about Zilliax? lol
I’m sure you also love the Titans (like Yogg) and other crazy cards because they’re "fun," even though they’re actually super boring—they’re just so overpowered that they end up in almost every deck.
There are plenty of cards out there that are cool, creative, and actually fun, but Hearthstone players call them "boring and uninteresting."
It’s funny that the devs know cards like Yogg and Marin the Manager aren’t great for the game—that they even nerfed them before the new expansion so people could enjoy the new cards (like building Starships).
Obviously, you think those two cards are "fun and cool." lol
It sounds like you don't like big expensive legendaries that come down late but have swing potential, complicated effects, potentially some RNG built in and synergies you can build your deck around to become win conditions.
But yeah those are the sort of cards I think are fun.
'Super boring,' to me, would be a small minion that's great value, or a card that draws cards and/or does chip face damage.
But that's Hearthstone players for you!
What Hearthstone cards do people who don't play Hearthstone enjoy?
"complicated effects" "synergies you can build your deck around"
What are you talking about, man?
What’s complicated about Zilliax? What synergies do Titans or Marin the Manager need? The reason Titans are in almost every deck is because they’re so broken, even without requiring any synergy.
As someone who enjoys the deck-building aspect of card games, I hate the mindset of, "Oh, I’m building a deck, so let’s start by adding these overpowered cards that have zero synergy with my deck but can still win games on their own."
"It sounds like you don’t like big, expensive legendaries that come down late."
Actually, I LOVE those cards, but I prefer the ones with deep synergy in my decks—the ones you build a deck around. By the way, I rarely play aggro or combo decks unless it’s something unique that I came up with. I knew people would assume that I want fast games when reading my comment.
Since it's not really the same card I don't see the issue.
Ziliax is problematic in this Brawl due to small card pool and difficulties it causes to some classes in finding a way to get rid of it (especially Unkilliax in Mech Warrior), but it's not a big problem in Standard. It's a very good card, no doubt about it, but it's not that oppresive.
And it doesn't leave with next rotation.
best card in awhile imo
This comment sums up all of my frustration with this game! THANK YOU! SOMEONE WHO GETS IT! I hate titans, colossals, Marin, new yogg, reno, and hero cards. The fun part of HS and other card games is deck-building and deck variety (which isn't usually a thing..) 'Soloes the game with no synergy' cards are objectively bad for the game. I don't want to build the same generic control/reno deck that you face every other game. I've tried it before. Current reno warrior mirrors are one of the worst experiences ive had in HS in 10 years. They take 20-30 mins and each card plays itself and theres 20 mana swings every turn and nothing you do matters because at the end of the day, the match is decided by which player drew their omega super busted legendary card first or who got better random spells/cards from yogg or Marin.
I would be very happy if instead of powerful 'no synergy required' cards, they just come out with a new tribe every set. Generalist high individual cards make deck-building not fun. One of the reasons why I HATE reno with a passion
If you complain about Reno warrior mirror, just don't play Reno warrior...
I love the overall design of Ziliax but the execution was/is lacking. I just think should have left the stats the same as the OG Ziliax and balanced the mana cost to the modules chosen without stat increase. 4/s 5 and 6/5s are just too strong when mixed with those modules when you have the means to bring them back, copy, step, etc.
Yes. I play for fun. I've been building and iterating a quest elemental shaman in wild for years now. Renathal was nerfed because it was fun, and people liked the slower meta, so everyone played it. It had a high playrate, but the win rate wasn't actually even that good. People just liked the feeling, which is why it kept a reasonably high playrate even after getting nerfed. I certainly still played it, and still put it in almost every wild deck I play.
So much this. Sure, cards need to be good for players to consider using them, but the "neutral legendaries that are just so high above the power curve" have never been so rampant. There were some old neutrals that were outliers like OG Zilliax, and very notably Astalor, but when Astalor was around that was the ONLY broken everywhere-neutral. Now in any non-combo, non-aggro deck (and some are in aggro decks), you just have to assume that you're gonna have to play against:
And joining them in the next expansion:
They aren't there because they have any synergies or interesting mechanics, they're just there because they're better than class cards and if you don't run them, you're gimping yourself. That sucks.
What are you talking about? Astalor was the ONLY broken legendary when he came out? The same expansion had anubrekhan and Thaddeus. The set before had sire denathrius, the jailer and Kaelthas. All of those legendaries were over the top because brann was in core. I don’t care for some of the cards you listed and agree that neutral power level is higher than class cards… but come on, last year’s standard was full of busted combos.
Fck this game up more. I want it to go out with a bang. Take some of the prior years desensitization, and print rng explosion after rng explosion. Eventually we will have games that end on turn 1 in standard. Remember switcheroo? Good times
As a Reno enjoyer, I don't quite get the issue with overall good neutral legendaries. Literally the only neutral legendary that seemed to be completely busted in any deck was Denathrius, since it was literally a 0 effort OTK, you play it, your opponent dies immediately. You would only really have troubles with Astalor against highly synergized decks like Anub'Rekhan Druid (thank God that's gone), Reno priest with Voidtouched Attendant or a Shudderwock deck(which is based, unbiased btw). In all other decks, it was a very big pressure of never having an empty board otherwise you get rekt.
Having to face the same cards in multiple archetypes is fine I think, you expect it, you can play around it. I actually think highly synergized decks (in Wild) infuriate me way more. You see a Priest and they turn into Shadow mode, you know you will die turn 3 if you have bad draw. Now that is something I absolutely hate because you can do nothing about it.
Currently in the Tavern Brawl, I agree that Unkilliax is absolutely horrendously annoying. But this is what I mean, it is a very highly synergized deck to summon Unkilliax 4 times on average(not counting reborn). It's not that these other decks rely on Zilliax, they just want to topdeck it on turn 9, or when the board is full is all. It's an extra push when they get lucky. You don't think it's fun on your own end when you're at 1 hp and your enemy is out of steam but you topdeck it to survive it just barely to win the game? It sucks for the opponent but you managed to win because you had a value card like that. You rather would just lose because you hate to have general value and everyone plays it instead? That wouldn't make sense.
- Shudderstone
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The thing is, the majority of people who play card games don’t care much about the deck-building aspect. They usually think “deck building” just means including high win-rate cards in the deck. That’s why I don’t blame the developers—they’re simply giving people what they want.
I know it sounds silly to say, but I hate how Reno decks have no synergy. If I’m watching a streamer on Twitch who starts playing one, I just leave the stream. I want to watch an actual deck, not just a bunch of high win-rate cards (legendaries).
It’s funny because when people read my comments, they assume I’m a player who wants fast games, even though I love slow decks. But I like slow, synergistic decks that try to kill the opponent. For example, Cubelock was a slow/control deck, but it had tons of synergy and aimed to kill the opponent—not just survive indefinitely until it drew the one or two cards that win the game. Even its hero card, Gul’dan, was a central piece of the deck, unlike other hero cards.
In my opinion, the best-designed highlander card is “Krul the Unshackled” because you need to build your deck around it. You have to sacrifice many slots in your deck for demons and ways to draw them. The reason why Reno decks in the Wild format nowadays play tons of disruption/tech cards and other weird, greedy stuff is that they only care about 3 or 4 cards (like Raza, Uther the Ebon Blade, Aviana, etc.), and the rest of the deck is just survivability, disruptions, and so on.
For example, if you want to build Libram Paladin in Wild, it’s hard to include a lot of disruption or odd tech/greed cards because there just aren’t enough slots. That’s why Reno decks are the best option in Wild if you want to play slow decks—you only need to focus on 3 or 4 key cards, while the rest can be dedicated to survivability, disruption, ramp, and so on.