How is that every expansion Mage is always pet with the BEST high roll non-sense cards with almost not backdraws? We can talk a lot of druid stuff for days but when it comes to a Class that always find the way to win games with board states that are impossible to solve early in the game without taking half you HP as damage Mage is the main culprit. I dont honestly dont dont understand the Dev team perspective with this class.
Like whats the point? Because Mage is obviusly the "mascot class" of the game they should always be able to go even crazier that all the other high roll classes? (warlock and rogue) This has been a trend for years now. While other classes keep jumping from a bad archtype to anoher unsupported archtype every expansion (Priest for example) this class always is loaded with ways to dealt massive damage, get rewarded for holding heavy cost cards, being able to play big value earlyer than others or super amounts of direct damage.
So I get that you're frustrated with the shitshow that is BSM, but I don't think it's accurate to say that mage always has the best deck after every expansion.
I think a potential issue is that a lot of the viable Mage decks end up feeling very un-fun to play against (imo) - Sif Mage, BSM, No-minion mage as recent examples of "random-bullshit-OTK", "extreme-mana-cheat-bullshit" & "random-bullshit-mana-cheat" respectively. Excluding BSM, none of these decks were vastly over respresented in the meta.
Note, I'm not saying that BSM isn't a problem (it is). I'm also not saying that BSM is unbeatable (it isn't). The problem is that decks have to be made specfically to beat BSM and mostly lose to everything else, so the game becomes rock-paper-scissor with the outcome of each match determined by matchmaking. That's a terrible game design.
There’s very little people who defend BSM despite being 1/4 of decks :). I’m not sure Mage is favoured by the dev team, at least I’ve never been under that impression.
The problem is that it’s warping the meta. Even BSM now have tech cards like stomper and neophyte to counter mirror matches because the deck is so prevalent at the moment.
I think the argument of « it’s beatable » is a moot point. So is every deck. No deck has a 100% victory rate. That’s, therefore, besides the point.
It does strongly incentivise to fill your board with minions before turn 5 otherwise you’ll get 12 damage to face + weapon + potentially the same thing the turn after. Decks therefore need to be tailored that way.
BSM players likely won’t admit it but I’m sure they too will be relieved when it’s finally nerfed as I’m pretty sure they don’t even enjoy facing BSM themselves. I don’t recall the last time an archetype being so pervasive in the meta. I’m not even sure BSM actually enjoy playing the deck as there’s so little to do. More likely it provides easy access to legend.
So I get that you're frustrated with the shitshow that is BSM, but I don't think it's accurate to say that mage always has the best deck after every expansion.
Not saying that is the best always but that from time way way before this years Mage always have this potential of high roll. I was fine with the class being the "exodia" time to time because the next expansion they were force to shift into aggro, combo again them aggro again. Now days regardless of the card pull there is always a High Roll mage kind of deck in rotation. And yes is honestly very unfun face the deck expansion after expansion, yeah always in a different shell but is the same focus of "getting too much value too early"
Maybe if other classes have access to this everlasting consistency in archtype i wont be so angry but the meta would be shit for sure. We know that is not healthy for the game. Just look at what happen when you overlap enough weapon buff in standard in Rogue that is getting to a critical mass of "oh i can stack 10/10 weapon"
Honestly, as op as BSM is, so are the other decks. I played quiet some games as BSM and it felt like unbeatable. But eventually i started to lose to all kind of decks...
Pirate DH (on turn 3)
Shaman
Warrior
Druid (basically 100% loss)
Paladin (the spamming minions type)
Pain Warlock
So yeah, it seems like so many decks are jist to strong and it only depends on who got a better opening hand and first 1-3 draws.
I can take a guess based on the sole idea of Rogue being more High Roll than Mage while mage is literally 17% of the class popularity and i am sure that is lik 30% of the ladder along side with druid.
I think this thread should really try define what people class as a "high-roll" deck.
For me its a deck which relies on randomness to achieve outcomes which should otherwise not be possible (either through access to non-class cards or due to mana reductions - or both).
In that vein, I don't really consider BSM to be a high-roll deck. It's a bullshit deck, but the outcomes are consistent and well definied. You know that Watercolor Artist will draw Tsunami and that other fixed mechanisms will allow it to be cast well before turn 10. You can predict (and potentially stop) some of the mana-cheating. The only high-roll potential is Sunset Volley summoning the worst minion for the current game-state, and given there's only 8 possible 10 mana minions that can be summoned, it's not that unlikely.
I would agree with Nigri and say that excavate (or espionage) Rogue is more in line with what I would call a high-roll deck. It generates many random cards, they typically have reduced cost, and the combinations of those cards can be completely broken - often functionally ending the game. You can't predict or play around this type of deck.
Examples of a high-roll from a recent game of mine (not a high-roll deck from my definition though!) :
I faced a warrior who used Marin the Manager to draw Bran and Reno for 0 mana and then discovered another Marin the Manager from Zarog's Crown. The second Marin the Manager now had the double battlecry for another 6 treasures in deck. He then discovered Drilly the Kid through one of the other crowns which gave him enough excavates to get the 4 mana reward which summoned a board of minions including 2 Grommash Hellscream.
Whenever someone tries to downplay a deck it's very often because they're playing it. ''Oh it's not that good, it can be beaten'' often come from people who play the deck. Either way, it'll get nerfed (probably this week). Only a matter of time.
I think this thread should really try define what people class as a "high-roll" deck.
For me its a deck which relies on randomness to achieve outcomes which should otherwise not be possible (either through access to non-class cards or due to mana reductions - or both).
In that vein, I don't really consider BSM to be a high-roll deck. It's a bullshit deck, but the outcomes are consistent and well definied. You know that Watercolor Artist will draw Tsunami and that other fixed mechanisms will allow it to be cast well before turn 10. You can predict (and potentially stop) some of the mana-cheating. The only high-roll potential is Sunset Volley summoning the worst minion for the current game-state, and given there's only 8 possible 10 mana minions that can be summoned, it's not that unlikely.
I would agree with Nigri and say that excavate (or espionage) Rogue is more in line with what I would call a high-roll deck. It generates many random cards, they typically have reduced cost, and the combinations of those cards can be completely broken - often functionally ending the game. You can't predict or play around this type of deck.
Examples of a high-roll from a recent game of mine (not a high-roll deck from my definition though!) :
I faced a warrior who used Marin the Manager to draw Bran and Reno for 0 mana and then discovered another Marin the Manager from Zarog's Crown. The second Marin the Manager now had the double battlecry for another 6 treasures in deck. He then discovered Drilly the Kid through one of the other crowns which gave him enough excavates to get the 4 mana reward which summoned a board of minions including 2 Grommash Hellscream.
That's what I call a high-roll...
The high roll of the deck is also on all the effects that summon a minion of the cost of the spell (if any it should summon a minion of the cost in that moment. Because right now there is a interesting amount of 10 cost and 9 cost minions that can win for free if they are summon bfore turn 5. Like the 6/7 robot that generates another robot that strikes any enemy. The Coin into octopus on 4 into coin the 6 mana spells that draw and summons, drawing Tsunami, summons the robot is literally imposible to beat. And while is not something that happens every game, facing a full board fo 3/6 and one 10 cost minion on 5 is something that happens in atleast 4 of 10 games against mages (and for most classes is not possible to beat that board state) which is far many times that it should happen if you ask me.
Sure Rogue later have crazy rolls with the 0/7 and can get 3 or 4 busted lego for 1 mana, win the game instanly. That usually not happen. Is like 1 of 10 games, also most rogues are playing the "I get a 10/10 weapon and play solitarie with your face" deck instead of the value.
BSM isnt even good. its a high roll deck that is fortunate to have 4 pay offs right now.
I agree, kind of, If the 2 main targets of th deck dont generate minions by themself the deck would be terrible. But all comes to spell density with this kind of decks. The main problem with HS and Mage (and other decks from other classes that benefit from Spells) is that they can become busted or useless just because what spells are on the ladder. If you ask me this deck will either get more support in the later expansions and get a critical mass or it will stay as it is (and without a nerf is a deck that can get you to legend for free) and how good or bad it becomes will depend on: we will get more efficient 9 and 10 minions? we will get even a better target for the deck than Tsunami? (plz no). Thats my problem with mage as the class sinse some time is always focus on mana cheating stuff in different ways (get a bunch of efficient low cost burn to set-up OTKs or efficients 10 cost to cast too early) is just very very very hard to pilot the game against it. Most mage games are win by classes that can survive 40+ Damage and the winrate of the class is over 54% for sure so its probably the "best class" just because, as you said, it just happens to have the right cards.
I just played against Druid who played Dorian into draw into Dungar turn 4.
Still want to discuss Mage as the best highroller in the game? Amuse me.
As i said, yes, is still Mage; Dungar pulls 3 minions of diff expansions means that is a build around deck that can brick more often than mage (and mage has a legendary card specifically to UNBRICK the deck). Meta stats speaks better than my words. The best deck in the format are literally all the hyper aggro with anti-mage tech decks AND Mage. Them, Rainbow Chaman, Them Druid and some combos with Zarimi Priest. Highlander Druid could win more often than lose against Mage, still is a way worse high roll deck because the impact of Druid plays are not that strong against other top decks.
There is not AoE in the game right now that solves four 6 Defense minions on turn 4 without mana cheat. Not just that, your board and your face will be fronzen and take damage before you even have the chance to clear. And all this is just Tsunami as a card, still most of the cards that cheat the spells come with an EXTRA 10 mana minion attached.
It's just more frustrating to lose to Dungar druid because it's a horrible deck, Mage you know it's very consistent , broken deck that needs to be fixed.
In fact there is a lot of things that needs to be fixed lol...
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How is that every expansion Mage is always pet with the BEST high roll non-sense cards with almost not backdraws? We can talk a lot of druid stuff for days but when it comes to a Class that always find the way to win games with board states that are impossible to solve early in the game without taking half you HP as damage Mage is the main culprit. I dont honestly dont dont understand the Dev team perspective with this class.
Like whats the point? Because Mage is obviusly the "mascot class" of the game they should always be able to go even crazier that all the other high roll classes? (warlock and rogue) This has been a trend for years now. While other classes keep jumping from a bad archtype to anoher unsupported archtype every expansion (Priest for example) this class always is loaded with ways to dealt massive damage, get rewarded for holding heavy cost cards, being able to play big value earlyer than others or super amounts of direct damage.
Mage was unplayable before miniset.
So I get that you're frustrated with the shitshow that is BSM, but I don't think it's accurate to say that mage always has the best deck after every expansion.
I think a potential issue is that a lot of the viable Mage decks end up feeling very un-fun to play against (imo) - Sif Mage, BSM, No-minion mage as recent examples of "random-bullshit-OTK", "extreme-mana-cheat-bullshit" & "random-bullshit-mana-cheat" respectively. Excluding BSM, none of these decks were vastly over respresented in the meta.
Note, I'm not saying that BSM isn't a problem (it is). I'm also not saying that BSM is unbeatable (it isn't). The problem is that decks have to be made specfically to beat BSM and mostly lose to everything else, so the game becomes rock-paper-scissor with the outcome of each match determined by matchmaking. That's a terrible game design.
There’s very little people who defend BSM despite being 1/4 of decks :). I’m not sure Mage is favoured by the dev team, at least I’ve never been under that impression.
The problem is that it’s warping the meta. Even BSM now have tech cards like stomper and neophyte to counter mirror matches because the deck is so prevalent at the moment.
I think the argument of « it’s beatable » is a moot point. So is every deck. No deck has a 100% victory rate. That’s, therefore, besides the point.
It does strongly incentivise to fill your board with minions before turn 5 otherwise you’ll get 12 damage to face + weapon + potentially the same thing the turn after. Decks therefore need to be tailored that way.
BSM players likely won’t admit it but I’m sure they too will be relieved when it’s finally nerfed as I’m pretty sure they don’t even enjoy facing BSM themselves. I don’t recall the last time an archetype being so pervasive in the meta. I’m not even sure BSM actually enjoy playing the deck as there’s so little to do. More likely it provides easy access to legend.
devs cant stay away from the siren call of casino high roll when it comes to mage design.
I got easy legend this month using a highlander shaman changed for completing achieves because of all these mages and warriors, no problem here.
Not saying that is the best always but that from time way way before this years Mage always have this potential of high roll. I was fine with the class being the "exodia" time to time because the next expansion they were force to shift into aggro, combo again them aggro again. Now days regardless of the card pull there is always a High Roll mage kind of deck in rotation. And yes is honestly very unfun face the deck expansion after expansion, yeah always in a different shell but is the same focus of "getting too much value too early"
Maybe if other classes have access to this everlasting consistency in archtype i wont be so angry but the meta would be shit for sure. We know that is not healthy for the game. Just look at what happen when you overlap enough weapon buff in standard in Rogue that is getting to a critical mass of "oh i can stack 10/10 weapon"
At least it’s not as bad as T5 OTK Druid, Demon Seed (solitaire) Warlock, or the voracious aggro Pirate decks in wild.
Honestly, as op as BSM is, so are the other decks. I played quiet some games as BSM and it felt like unbeatable. But eventually i started to lose to all kind of decks...
Pirate DH (on turn 3)
Shaman
Warrior
Druid (basically 100% loss)
Paladin (the spamming minions type)
Pain Warlock
So yeah, it seems like so many decks are jist to strong and it only depends on who got a better opening hand and first 1-3 draws.
Im not having a good time with Mage atm. I am trying to get the last 60 wins I need with DH to get golden. Mage pops out that Tsunami and I am TKO
Not true, yes, Mage does get a lot of casino options, but Rogue is much better highroller than Mage.
Can you guess who the BSM are in this thread?
I can take a guess based on the sole idea of Rogue being more High Roll than Mage while mage is literally 17% of the class popularity and i am sure that is lik 30% of the ladder along side with druid.
I think this thread should really try define what people class as a "high-roll" deck.
For me its a deck which relies on randomness to achieve outcomes which should otherwise not be possible (either through access to non-class cards or due to mana reductions - or both).
In that vein, I don't really consider BSM to be a high-roll deck. It's a bullshit deck, but the outcomes are consistent and well definied. You know that Watercolor Artist will draw Tsunami and that other fixed mechanisms will allow it to be cast well before turn 10. You can predict (and potentially stop) some of the mana-cheating. The only high-roll potential is Sunset Volley summoning the worst minion for the current game-state, and given there's only 8 possible 10 mana minions that can be summoned, it's not that unlikely.
I would agree with Nigri and say that excavate (or espionage) Rogue is more in line with what I would call a high-roll deck. It generates many random cards, they typically have reduced cost, and the combinations of those cards can be completely broken - often functionally ending the game. You can't predict or play around this type of deck.
Examples of a high-roll from a recent game of mine (not a high-roll deck from my definition though!) :
I faced a warrior who used Marin the Manager to draw Bran and Reno for 0 mana and then discovered another Marin the Manager from Zarog's Crown. The second Marin the Manager now had the double battlecry for another 6 treasures in deck. He then discovered Drilly the Kid through one of the other crowns which gave him enough excavates to get the 4 mana reward which summoned a board of minions including 2 Grommash Hellscream.
That's what I call a high-roll...
BSM isnt even good. its a high roll deck that is fortunate to have 4 pay offs right now.
Whenever someone tries to downplay a deck it's very often because they're playing it. ''Oh it's not that good, it can be beaten'' often come from people who play the deck. Either way, it'll get nerfed (probably this week). Only a matter of time.
The high roll of the deck is also on all the effects that summon a minion of the cost of the spell (if any it should summon a minion of the cost in that moment. Because right now there is a interesting amount of 10 cost and 9 cost minions that can win for free if they are summon bfore turn 5. Like the 6/7 robot that generates another robot that strikes any enemy. The Coin into octopus on 4 into coin the 6 mana spells that draw and summons, drawing Tsunami, summons the robot is literally imposible to beat. And while is not something that happens every game, facing a full board fo 3/6 and one 10 cost minion on 5 is something that happens in atleast 4 of 10 games against mages (and for most classes is not possible to beat that board state) which is far many times that it should happen if you ask me.
Sure Rogue later have crazy rolls with the 0/7 and can get 3 or 4 busted lego for 1 mana, win the game instanly. That usually not happen. Is like 1 of 10 games, also most rogues are playing the "I get a 10/10 weapon and play solitarie with your face" deck instead of the value.
I agree, kind of, If the 2 main targets of th deck dont generate minions by themself the deck would be terrible. But all comes to spell density with this kind of decks. The main problem with HS and Mage (and other decks from other classes that benefit from Spells) is that they can become busted or useless just because what spells are on the ladder. If you ask me this deck will either get more support in the later expansions and get a critical mass or it will stay as it is (and without a nerf is a deck that can get you to legend for free) and how good or bad it becomes will depend on: we will get more efficient 9 and 10 minions? we will get even a better target for the deck than Tsunami? (plz no). Thats my problem with mage as the class sinse some time is always focus on mana cheating stuff in different ways (get a bunch of efficient low cost burn to set-up OTKs or efficients 10 cost to cast too early) is just very very very hard to pilot the game against it. Most mage games are win by classes that can survive 40+ Damage and the winrate of the class is over 54% for sure so its probably the "best class" just because, as you said, it just happens to have the right cards.
I just played against Druid who played Dorian into draw into Dungar turn 4.
Still want to discuss Mage as the best highroller in the game? Amuse me.
As i said, yes, is still Mage; Dungar pulls 3 minions of diff expansions means that is a build around deck that can brick more often than mage (and mage has a legendary card specifically to UNBRICK the deck). Meta stats speaks better than my words. The best deck in the format are literally all the hyper aggro with anti-mage tech decks AND Mage. Them, Rainbow Chaman, Them Druid and some combos with Zarimi Priest. Highlander Druid could win more often than lose against Mage, still is a way worse high roll deck because the impact of Druid plays are not that strong against other top decks.
There is not AoE in the game right now that solves four 6 Defense minions on turn 4 without mana cheat. Not just that, your board and your face will be fronzen and take damage before you even have the chance to clear. And all this is just Tsunami as a card, still most of the cards that cheat the spells come with an EXTRA 10 mana minion attached.
It's just more frustrating to lose to Dungar druid because it's a horrible deck, Mage you know it's very consistent , broken deck that needs to be fixed.
In fact there is a lot of things that needs to be fixed lol...