Am i the only one that’s had enough of these uncounterable insane damage from hand OTK-style decks that seem to be so prevalent on ladder at the moment? Quest DH was thankfully knocked out of the running but i’m seeing four main offenders in diamond as of late:
1. Arcane Bolt Mage
2. Frost DK
3. Phylactery Warlock
4. Shockspitter Hunter (to a lesser extent after nerfs)
The mage list reminds me of Shockspitter Hunter in that it plays like a semi-aggro deck with lots of early board presence and then all of a sudden by turn 7 or 8 they’ve got a hand full of cheap massive damage to smite down your entire health pool. Facing both of the decks puts you in a situation where you’re fighting for board control and racing against a very short clock at the same time, which at the risk of sounding controversial i’m going to classify as an unpleasant experience.
On the other hand the Frost lists as well as phylactery lists have this unbelievable ability to stall and discount their combo pieces to the point where once again, you are being cut down from damn near full or full HP by turn 7 with nothing to do except sit there and watch them pull more face damage out of thin air. The new warlock DR legendary to me is particularly ridiculous as it multiplies the damage from the mines expotentially, as if the combo wasn’t lethal enough as it is.
My problem here isn’t that OTK/combo decks are a thing, my issue is the fact that they can routinely close out entire games by turn 7 or 8. I mean you can’t even throw something like Mutanus or Theotar out to disrupt their hand because they hit lethal so early on. Is it too antiquated to think that a massive OTK should pop off maybe closer to, oh i don’t know, turn 10 perhaps??? (not fatigue)
Ah yes the famous uncounterable 50% winrate decks.
they can routinely close out entire games by turn 7 or 8
Is it ok for aggro decks but not combo decks or do you also complain about aggro decks closing out games by turn 7 ?
The purpose of aggro decks is to stop combo decks by closing out the game by turn 7. The purpose of control decks is to stop aggro decks by closing out the game by turn 7. The purpose of combo decks is to stop control decks by closing out the game by turn 7. It's just a cycle and you were on the wrong side of it for a couple games, it's ok.
Most games are decided by turn 7 if draw order was not screwed up badly by RNG, no matter the archetype, what's left of it after turn 7 is top deck luck or random generators and they rarely matter. In fact, most non-mirror games are decided in the matchmaking, getting the kill on turn 7 doesn't mean it was decided that turn.
I remember I played arcane bolt mage early in the expansion, granted my list was homebrewed and probably unrefined, it wasn't easy at all to win against both aggro (better board presence than mine, little to no board removal) and control (Blood DK with massive health pool and hand disruption vs my not infinite damage burst). Shockspitter hunter is about the same, it's not easy to actually prepare all the burst and not die. Frost DK and Phylactery are easier, for different reasons, but definitely not breaking the game.
Also, I love control decks, and I know for a fact, control metas are disgusting. Combo/aggro driven meta is the best you can wish for.
Is it too antiquated to think that a massive OTK should pop off maybe closer to, oh i don’t know, turn 10 perhaps???
Yes. Games closing out on turn 10+ were in 2015. For better or worse the game is different now.
Appreciate some good discourse here, but i do disagree with some of your points.
To begin with, it’s important to note that none of these decks gained the popularity that they have now by having 50% win rates. They got that spotlight by being much stronger than that when piloted correctly, which leads to many unskilled players netdecking them and bringing the overall winrate down.
Secondly, i don’t believe that aggro decks shutting down games that early is fair either (though it’s not unlikely to see a good aggro player secure a win by turn 5 ). But when you look at an aggro deck’s game plan and consider counters, there’s various options such as clearing boards, out-healing, swinging the board in your favor mid game, depleting their resources etc. I mean if you’re telling me that a Frost DK or an OTK Warlock is being hard countered by an Aggro Druid, i’d say it’s probably because they’re refusing to run any of the board clears they have available as opposed to more combo pieces. I don’t think that OTK/combo decks should be eliminated outright, but if they were a bit less efficient then maybe there wouldn’t be at least 4 different variations of them on ladder.
Lastly, as i included in my original post that was conveniently cut out of your quote, i understand the logic behind cutting out fatigue/attrition type strategies out of the game and i wont complain about them being a thing of the past. But if reaching turn 10 is getting phased out to begin with, then why are 9 or 10 cost cards even being printed any longer? Just to get cheated out early or for druids to ramp up to?
Ah yes the famous uncounterable 50% winrate decks.
they can routinely close out entire games by turn 7 or 8
Is it ok for aggro decks but not combo decks or do you also complain about aggro decks closing out games by turn 7 ?
The purpose of aggro decks is to stop combo decks by closing out the game by turn 7. The purpose of control decks is to stop aggro decks by closing out the game by turn 7. The purpose of combo decks is to stop control decks by closing out the game by turn 7. It's just a cycle and you were on the wrong side of it for a couple games, it's ok.
Most games are decided by turn 7 if draw order was not screwed up badly by RNG, no matter the archetype, what's left of it after turn 7 is top deck luck or random generators and they rarely matter. In fact, most non-mirror games are decided in the matchmaking, getting the kill on turn 7 doesn't mean it was decided that turn.
I remember I played arcane bolt mage early in the expansion, granted my list was homebrewed and probably unrefined, it wasn't easy at all to win against both aggro (better board presence than mine, little to no board removal) and control (Blood DK with massive health pool and hand disruption vs my not infinite damage burst). Shockspitter hunter is about the same, it's not easy to actually prepare all the burst and not die. Frost DK and Phylactery are easier, for different reasons, but definitely not breaking the game.
Also, I love control decks, and I know for a fact, control metas are disgusting. Combo/aggro driven meta is the best you can wish for.
Is it too antiquated to think that a massive OTK should pop off maybe closer to, oh i don’t know, turn 10 perhaps???
Yes. Games closing out on turn 10+ were in 2015. For better or worse the game is different now.
Whilst you’re correct that there should be a paper, scissor, stone mechanic, there simply isn’t.
Combo decks completely destroy control decks, and most of them have a fighting chance at least against aggro, making them perfectly viable.
Aggro decks are not only strong vs combo decks, but also are powerful to the point that they can pretty much run over control decks as well.
Basically, control decks have been completely left behind and are weak to both of these deck types. To be honest, I wouldn’t say it’s the worst it’s ever been, but it is pretty bad for control players right now.
This is because Blizz hates control decks. This is all a feature, not a bug. It's by design that games are ending in 7-8 turns.
I will go so far as to say that control will never again have it's day in the sun. Any time a control card/deck gets good they nerf it.
My guess is that people just like quick games. And so they are getting what they want. I prefer a nice long game with tons of decisions. So, this makes me sad. But, I guess most folks don't like that at all. I mean look at the success of Marvel Snap. People love short games.
To be honest i might need a refresher on what qualifies as control in this game nowadays. If i were playing a deck that starts making big board based plays starting at turn 5 plus (Evolve Shaman, Big Demon Hunter, Thief Rogue to a certain extent), what would be the best term to define those sort of strategies? I dont see them as control to any extent, but i dont know if midrange would be the word as they don’t exactly have the capability to play aggressively
Hmmm I don't really see any actual OTK decks anymore. This is mainly because Frost DK and shockspitter aren't really played as OTK decks, but rather good old burn, where you are dealt 15-ish damage from hand around turn 8. What I find to be the best decks for countering these strategies are the tankiest control decks such as blood DK. However, if you like the more swingy control decks... You'll probably have to accept some annoying losses :p
Unfortunately the game is over by turn 7-8. I dont think they are capable of changing that. Also they are adding even more card draw and even more 0 mana cards. They care more about teenagers playing on phones, never 2nd guessing their decision, just spamming what they can asap.
I despise the current gameplay and may only comeback once some control decks are viable.
To be honest i might need a refresher on what qualifies as control in this game nowadays. If i were playing a deck that starts making big board based plays starting at turn 5 plus (Evolve Shaman, Big Demon Hunter, Thief Rogue to a certain extent), what would be the best term to define those sort of strategies? I dont see them as control to any extent, but i dont know if midrange would be the word as they don’t exactly have the capability to play aggressively
Valid point
It is amazing how much impact the Renethal nerf to 35 health had, it makes the difference in surviving one more turn where you can possibly turn the tide against aggro
Hearthstone is what you make it. I recently reached platinum for the first time playing a Dar'Khan Warlock I semi-built myself. I'm currently playing a Reno Warrior I'm building and experimenting with myself, hovering around a 50% WR.
I enjoy playing Hearthstone because I do what I want to do, not what I have to do in order to stay competitive. I'm well aware of the meta, the aggro and the (imo) disgusting and fun-ruining disruption cards (Theotar, Patchwerk etc).
But even if I know I'm losing or that I go in to every game less favored, the decks I'm playing are mine and they're fun. The current state of Hearthstone is fast-paced, RNG heavy and the disruption mechanic is again, imo, the worst part of this game now. But I still play what I enjoy and what I want to play, and that's how I personally find enjoyment in non-enjoyment
Am i the only one that’s had enough of these uncounterable insane damage from hand OTK-style decks that seem to be so prevalent on ladder at the moment? Quest DH was thankfully knocked out of the running but i’m seeing four main offenders in diamond as of late:
1. Arcane Bolt Mage
2. Frost DK
3. Phylactery Warlock
4. Shockspitter Hunter (to a lesser extent after nerfs)
The mage list reminds me of Shockspitter Hunter in that it plays like a semi-aggro deck with lots of early board presence and then all of a sudden by turn 7 or 8 they’ve got a hand full of cheap massive damage to smite down your entire health pool. Facing both of the decks puts you in a situation where you’re fighting for board control and racing against a very short clock at the same time, which at the risk of sounding controversial i’m going to classify as an unpleasant experience.
On the other hand the Frost lists as well as phylactery lists have this unbelievable ability to stall and discount their combo pieces to the point where once again, you are being cut down from damn near full or full HP by turn 7 with nothing to do except sit there and watch them pull more face damage out of thin air. The new warlock DR legendary to me is particularly ridiculous as it multiplies the damage from the mines expotentially, as if the combo wasn’t lethal enough as it is.
My problem here isn’t that OTK/combo decks are a thing, my issue is the fact that they can routinely close out entire games by turn 7 or 8. I mean you can’t even throw something like Mutanus or Theotar out to disrupt their hand because they hit lethal so early on. Is it too antiquated to think that a massive OTK should pop off maybe closer to, oh i don’t know, turn 10 perhaps??? (not fatigue)
Agree Control is dead for now which makes me sad.
Ah yes the famous uncounterable 50% winrate decks.
Is it ok for aggro decks but not combo decks or do you also complain about aggro decks closing out games by turn 7 ?
The purpose of aggro decks is to stop combo decks by closing out the game by turn 7. The purpose of control decks is to stop aggro decks by closing out the game by turn 7. The purpose of combo decks is to stop control decks by closing out the game by turn 7. It's just a cycle and you were on the wrong side of it for a couple games, it's ok.
Most games are decided by turn 7 if draw order was not screwed up badly by RNG, no matter the archetype, what's left of it after turn 7 is top deck luck or random generators and they rarely matter. In fact, most non-mirror games are decided in the matchmaking, getting the kill on turn 7 doesn't mean it was decided that turn.
I remember I played arcane bolt mage early in the expansion, granted my list was homebrewed and probably unrefined, it wasn't easy at all to win against both aggro (better board presence than mine, little to no board removal) and control (Blood DK with massive health pool and hand disruption vs my not infinite damage burst). Shockspitter hunter is about the same, it's not easy to actually prepare all the burst and not die. Frost DK and Phylactery are easier, for different reasons, but definitely not breaking the game.
Also, I love control decks, and I know for a fact, control metas are disgusting. Combo/aggro driven meta is the best you can wish for.
Yes. Games closing out on turn 10+ were in 2015. For better or worse the game is different now.
Appreciate some good discourse here, but i do disagree with some of your points.
To begin with, it’s important to note that none of these decks gained the popularity that they have now by having 50% win rates. They got that spotlight by being much stronger than that when piloted correctly, which leads to many unskilled players netdecking them and bringing the overall winrate down.
Secondly, i don’t believe that aggro decks shutting down games that early is fair either (though it’s not unlikely to see a good aggro player secure a win by turn 5 ). But when you look at an aggro deck’s game plan and consider counters, there’s various options such as clearing boards, out-healing, swinging the board in your favor mid game, depleting their resources etc. I mean if you’re telling me that a Frost DK or an OTK Warlock is being hard countered by an Aggro Druid, i’d say it’s probably because they’re refusing to run any of the board clears they have available as opposed to more combo pieces. I don’t think that OTK/combo decks should be eliminated outright, but if they were a bit less efficient then maybe there wouldn’t be at least 4 different variations of them on ladder.
Lastly, as i included in my original post that was conveniently cut out of your quote, i understand the logic behind cutting out fatigue/attrition type strategies out of the game and i wont complain about them being a thing of the past. But if reaching turn 10 is getting phased out to begin with, then why are 9 or 10 cost cards even being printed any longer? Just to get cheated out early or for druids to ramp up to?
At least they saved the world by nerfing Holy Smite. God beware a priest could deal bombastic 3 face damage.
Whilst you’re correct that there should be a paper, scissor, stone mechanic, there simply isn’t.
Combo decks completely destroy control decks, and most of them have a fighting chance at least against aggro, making them perfectly viable.
Aggro decks are not only strong vs combo decks, but also are powerful to the point that they can pretty much run over control decks as well.
Basically, control decks have been completely left behind and are weak to both of these deck types. To be honest, I wouldn’t say it’s the worst it’s ever been, but it is pretty bad for control players right now.
This is because Blizz hates control decks. This is all a feature, not a bug. It's by design that games are ending in 7-8 turns.
I will go so far as to say that control will never again have it's day in the sun. Any time a control card/deck gets good they nerf it.
My guess is that people just like quick games. And so they are getting what they want. I prefer a nice long game with tons of decisions. So, this makes me sad. But, I guess most folks don't like that at all. I mean look at the success of Marvel Snap. People love short games.
To be honest i might need a refresher on what qualifies as control in this game nowadays. If i were playing a deck that starts making big board based plays starting at turn 5 plus (Evolve Shaman, Big Demon Hunter, Thief Rogue to a certain extent), what would be the best term to define those sort of strategies? I dont see them as control to any extent, but i dont know if midrange would be the word as they don’t exactly have the capability to play aggressively
Hmmm I don't really see any actual OTK decks anymore. This is mainly because Frost DK and shockspitter aren't really played as OTK decks, but rather good old burn, where you are dealt 15-ish damage from hand around turn 8. What I find to be the best decks for countering these strategies are the tankiest control decks such as blood DK. However, if you like the more swingy control decks... You'll probably have to accept some annoying losses :p
Unfortunately the game is over by turn 7-8. I dont think they are capable of changing that. Also they are adding even more card draw and even more 0 mana cards. They care more about teenagers playing on phones, never 2nd guessing their decision, just spamming what they can asap.
I despise the current gameplay and may only comeback once some control decks are viable.
Valid point
It is amazing how much impact the Renethal nerf to 35 health had, it makes the difference in surviving one more turn where you can possibly turn the tide against aggro
Hearthstone is what you make it. I recently reached platinum for the first time playing a Dar'Khan Warlock I semi-built myself. I'm currently playing a Reno Warrior I'm building and experimenting with myself, hovering around a 50% WR.
I enjoy playing Hearthstone because I do what I want to do, not what I have to do in order to stay competitive. I'm well aware of the meta, the aggro and the (imo) disgusting and fun-ruining disruption cards (Theotar, Patchwerk etc).
But even if I know I'm losing or that I go in to every game less favored, the decks I'm playing are mine and they're fun. The current state of Hearthstone is fast-paced, RNG heavy and the disruption mechanic is again, imo, the worst part of this game now. But I still play what I enjoy and what I want to play, and that's how I personally find enjoyment in non-enjoyment
aggro mage isnt a combo deck its a burst aggro deck, same with frost DK.
The other two are combo decks but they are mid at best