Hearthstone as a game needs to grow in order to continue to make profit and for this reason it needs to print new cards, there are some issues with this when it comes to completive play, especially when it comes to some card design choices which I will attempt to clarify below, this post has the goal of setting the ground rules for a format of hearthstone which I believe will be what old school hearthstone players like myself, who is often unsatisfied with the game seek from the game. The format will consist of a selection of cards where certain card design choices will be banned while others may not even if they consist of the same keyword.
Discover In my opinion in order to have a good meta in hearthstone then you need a deck with a specific sets of cards, by this I mean only the cards which you selected to your deck should be able to be played in a given match. with this logic discover cards like Hematurge is a problem and cards like Tracking is not.
Mana Cheat I don't find mana cheat problematic as a concept, but however i have issues with certain cards which I will call "surplus mana cheat" or SMC, SMC are cards which cheats more mana than its initial cost, ex Final Showdown which cost 1 mana and can great a surplus of 19 mana, given its full value, cards like these should be removed from this format, but other cards like Far Sight or even Harpoon Gun are fine, even though the latter has a surplus of 1 mana, but it is accepted due to the specific requirement and randomness factor. Other mana cheat cards like Horn of Winter and even Shadowstep are allowed. In my opinion in order for SMC to be acceptable the SMC card must cost 5+ mana such as Runed Minthril Rod and good old Emperor Thaurissan
Multiple use Hero Power I don't think multiple use hero power cards are a fun design, it gets monodies real quick and for this reason cards like Raza the Chained are banned but cards like Coldarra Drake is not, the reason is that Raza's effect is not interactive game design due to the lack of real counter play options
Endless value cards Speaking of multiple use, cards like Jade Idol and Ignite are banned, because I believe value of a certain deck needs to be finite. cards like Archmage Antonidas is allowed due to demanding setup.
Rest of the game effects Cards such as Command the Elements which create an effect that can not be removed will also not be allowed in this format due to the lack of interactive nature, cards like [card] Aegwynn, the Guardian/card] is allowed due to being counter able with silence and removal effects
evolve evolve is also banned because it is in my opinion an abstract version SMC cards
changing hero power turn 1 Cards that change hero power on turn 1 are also banned, like Baku the Mooneater
Ress mechanics might be banned because it is monodies to fight the same minions over and over again, but im not certain of this one
hand buff might be banned due to being a soft mana cheat, but also not certain of this one
These are the changes I would make to fix hearthstone, I might have overlooked something. the format would be in wild so every card in the game that is not in violations of previous rules will be permitted and in order to keep the format somehow fresh I suggest the top 5 most winning cards when played will be temporarily banned each season in order to keep the meta somehow fresh, new expansion cards that follow the rules will obviously be added to the card pull.
thank you for reading and if you got suggestions or criticisms please feel free to post below, these are just my opinion for what I think would make hearthstone more enjoyable
I don't understand what exactly your goal of "more enjoyment". If you want to play old HS - play classic. It's a good mode for people who want "fair" HS.
I've read all of your "improvements" and it's your vision of "bad design". I agree with some of them but...
Here's my point. HS should give players excitement, easiest way to achieve - give something new. That's why we have a lot expansions, mini-sets, patches, events.
On the other side is "fairness" that should lead us to "competitive" side of the game. And that's...in a hole. Do you remember Silvername's turn 6 "The box of Yogg"?
So what I was trying to say. The fun and random aspects hurts competitive scene when it's strong, and that's is where balance should be about.
The idea is not a return to some older form of Hearthstone, it is a return to some of the principles which i perceive to have existed earlier, I sure found that concept of hearthstone exciting, tinkering with your deck in order to fine tune it against the meta is fun for me, it is in my opinion not a valid effort when you lose to randomness. an example for todays meta is when i lose to Rune of the Archmage, it is not exiting at all to me, because it is the randomness that wins the game and not the player, some people enjoy that and for them the formats they love and adore will still be available.
"On the other side is "fairness" that should lead us to "competitive" side of the game. And that's...in a hole. Do you remember Silvername's turn 6 "The box of Yogg"?" I am not familiar with this
This is pure rose colored glasses. Returning to principles is crap, it was similar then and now. Even back in beta you could shadowstep leeroy for 12 damage from hand, add cold blood and you had 20 damage. Mana reduction has always been a part of the game, mech warper and free mechs were very strong in GvG. Banning resurrect? Handbuff? Evolve is banned for manacheating but not runed mithril rod? Harpoon gun is ok, even though a 5-mana hydralodon just ends the game? This is all ridiculous and OP is nostalgic for a version of this game that never existed. I sure as hell don’t want to play chillwind yeti meta hearthstone.
The game needs to evolve but does not evolve in the way I would like it to evolve.
Introducing new mechanics and all is fine by me. I just have a problem with certain OP cards that shape the meta but they change them regularly with nerfs and buffs so I'm kinda okay with that too.
Hearthstone didn't change at ALL since it has been released. It's the same board, cards, and playstyle without any visual improvements whatsoever. The only thing that did change is some effects the cards have and new mechanics and that in my books is not enough.
And at the end of the day, they started to monetize so hard without any ground whatsoever.
Think about it like this. A game like NBA or FIFA or whatever. How those games changed during the years from 2014 until today.
Graphic improvements skyrocketed. They are visually way better. Graphics are amazing in today's games. I understand this is a card game and tends to be simple and easy to play but still. Continuing in this way Heartstone will fall behind other games. Even TFT has better graphics and overlay as a game.
There is a TON of improvements that can be done from a visual and graphic design point of view. If the game is visually attractive and up to date with today's games I think it might attract more players and at the end of the day be more enjoyable.
That's why I got annoyed when they started to monetize aggressively last year all around without any grounds.
Improve the overlay, and graphics, make it more visually appealing, and then we can talk more.
This is pure rose colored glasses. Returning to principles is crap, it was similar then and now. Even back in beta you could shadowstep leeroy for 12 damage from hand, add cold blood and you had 20 damage. Mana reduction has always been a part of the game, mech warper and free mechs were very strong in GvG. Banning resurrect? Handbuff? Evolve is banned for manacheating but not runed mithril rod? Harpoon gun is ok, even though a 5-mana hydralodon just ends the game? This is all ridiculous and OP is nostalgic for a version of this game that never existed. I sure as hell don’t want to play chillwind yeti meta hearthstone.
I don't believe it to be rose colored perspective, it is a hearthstone philosophy which i acknowledge maybe never have existed but i believe it should and i don't agree with the assestment that it will leade to so called yeti meta, as you said yourself combos like leeroy + shadowstep will still be available
I highly doubt Raza would have been a problem if it weren't for Shadowreaper, and without Raza Shadowreaper is too slow a wincon with a Shadow Word: Ruin for a battlecry.
Without DK Anduin Raza is just heal 2 for 0, not exactly a reusable hero power so I don't understand why Raza was mentioned and not Defend the Dwarven District which isn't a 2-card combo that is always in your hand guaranteeing you'll fulfil requirements before turn 6 or 7— and Priest's infinite hp happened if you drew Raza and Shadowreaper early, let's not forget it was very possible to simple not draw Raza or Shadowreaper until your very last cards when you're dead already.
I don't agree with your overall suggestions to the games future though.
raza was mentioned a token for a specific gameplay design that defend the dwarven district also is a part of and therefor under this logic also banned, it is too much to mention every card.
what overall suggestions do you not agree with? :)
every month 5 most played cards in previous season are banned, and 3 random allready banned cards are unbanned... and this every month... that would change the meta over and over...
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To live is to suffer, to survive is to find meaning in the suffer!
Remove 95% of the stupid damn discover and mana cheat garbage. It’s soo easy to cheat your way to a win. I lose to generated cards over 25% of games easily. 2,3,4 copies of the same broken legendaries is so common in the game right now that the “LEGENDARY” tag mean almost nothing besides “this card is probably broken, good thing you can only play 1, JK here is a copy and another” . Could you image having to put things in your deck to play them??!???!! Not hearthstone.
Stopped reading when you suggested discover was a bad mechanic. And it's the mechanic that made hearthstone popular, and got many other clones to copy it. It's a revolutionary mechanic that makes ccg's more exciting than tcg's. For a control freak they are a nightmare. But don't take this game more seriously than it is supposed to be taken.
discover outside the deck is a fine mechanic for some players who likes that random game style, but many people don't like that game style and it would be lovely not to be forced to play against it when you are trying to play a more thoughtful game style
I dont hate discover, I just think it should have serious restrictions on how many and what can be generated. If you have a patchwerk in your deck you shouldn’t get 2 more. discover should also have a tax. Cause finding something that fills the gap in your deck or responds to a board state you are not prepared for, of help your end the game, should NEVER come with upside. Cause the massive upside is having the cards.
The “Legendary” cards are balanced around playing exactly one of them. But there are tools all over the place to make their battle cry happen twice and play 3 copies of it.
My personal pet peeve is that cards that essentially just do a lot of totally random stuff and have about equal chance of outright winning or losing the the game for the person who plays them, should NOT be a viable win condition.
Sadly this has been the design philosophy of the Mage class for years now and it's honestly a completely embarrassment to the game.
My personal pet peeve is that cards that essentially just do a lot of totally random stuff and have about equal chance of outright winning or losing the the game for the person who plays them, should NOT be a viable win condition.
Sadly this has been the design philosophy of the Mage class for years now and it's honestly a completely embarrassment to the game.
Hearthstone is becoming more and more like a slot machine and less and less like a card game, it is a sad expirence and iv already quit once because of it, came back to hearthstone with an understanding thou that now it is a different type of game, but wow it is a totally different game, nothing matters outside of the rng
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
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Hearthstone as a game needs to grow in order to continue to make profit and for this reason it needs to print new cards, there are some issues with this when it comes to completive play, especially when it comes to some card design choices which I will attempt to clarify below, this post has the goal of setting the ground rules for a format of hearthstone which I believe will be what old school hearthstone players like myself, who is often unsatisfied with the game seek from the game. The format will consist of a selection of cards where certain card design choices will be banned while others may not even if they consist of the same keyword.
Discover
In my opinion in order to have a good meta in hearthstone then you need a deck with a specific sets of cards, by this I mean only the cards which you selected to your deck should be able to be played in a given match. with this logic discover cards like Hematurge is a problem and cards like Tracking is not.
Mana Cheat
I don't find mana cheat problematic as a concept, but however i have issues with certain cards which I will call "surplus mana cheat" or SMC, SMC are cards which cheats more mana than its initial cost, ex Final Showdown which cost 1 mana and can great a surplus of 19 mana, given its full value, cards like these should be removed from this format, but other cards like Far Sight or even Harpoon Gun are fine, even though the latter has a surplus of 1 mana, but it is accepted due to the specific requirement and randomness factor. Other mana cheat cards like Horn of Winter and even Shadowstep are allowed.
In my opinion in order for SMC to be acceptable the SMC card must cost 5+ mana such as Runed Minthril Rod and good old Emperor Thaurissan
Multiple use Hero Power
I don't think multiple use hero power cards are a fun design, it gets monodies real quick and for this reason cards like Raza the Chained are banned but cards like Coldarra Drake is not, the reason is that Raza's effect is not interactive game design due to the lack of real counter play options
Endless value cards
Speaking of multiple use, cards like Jade Idol and Ignite are banned, because I believe value of a certain deck needs to be finite. cards like Archmage Antonidas is allowed due to demanding setup.
Rest of the game effects
Cards such as Command the Elements which create an effect that can not be removed will also not be allowed in this format due to the lack of interactive nature, cards like [card] Aegwynn, the Guardian/card] is allowed due to being counter able with silence and removal effects
evolve
evolve is also banned because it is in my opinion an abstract version SMC cards
changing hero power turn 1
Cards that change hero power on turn 1 are also banned, like Baku the Mooneater
Ress mechanics
might be banned because it is monodies to fight the same minions over and over again, but im not certain of this one
hand buff
might be banned due to being a soft mana cheat, but also not certain of this one
These are the changes I would make to fix hearthstone, I might have overlooked something. the format would be in wild so every card in the game that is not in violations of previous rules will be permitted and in order to keep the format somehow fresh I suggest the top 5 most winning cards when played will be temporarily banned each season in order to keep the meta somehow fresh, new expansion cards that follow the rules will obviously be added to the card pull.
thank you for reading and if you got suggestions or criticisms please feel free to post below, these are just my opinion for what I think would make hearthstone more enjoyable
I don't understand what exactly your goal of "more enjoyment". If you want to play old HS - play classic. It's a good mode for people who want "fair" HS.
I've read all of your "improvements" and it's your vision of "bad design". I agree with some of them but...
Here's my point. HS should give players excitement, easiest way to achieve - give something new. That's why we have a lot expansions, mini-sets, patches, events.
On the other side is "fairness" that should lead us to "competitive" side of the game. And that's...in a hole. Do you remember Silvername's turn 6 "The box of Yogg"?
So what I was trying to say. The fun and random aspects hurts competitive scene when it's strong, and that's is where balance should be about.
The idea is not a return to some older form of Hearthstone, it is a return to some of the principles which i perceive to have existed earlier, I sure found that concept of hearthstone exciting, tinkering with your deck in order to fine tune it against the meta is fun for me, it is in my opinion not a valid effort when you lose to randomness. an example for todays meta is when i lose to Rune of the Archmage, it is not exiting at all to me, because it is the randomness that wins the game and not the player, some people enjoy that and for them the formats they love and adore will still be available.
"On the other side is "fairness" that should lead us to "competitive" side of the game. And that's...in a hole. Do you remember Silvername's turn 6 "The box of Yogg"?" I am not familiar with this
This is pure rose colored glasses. Returning to principles is crap, it was similar then and now. Even back in beta you could shadowstep leeroy for 12 damage from hand, add cold blood and you had 20 damage. Mana reduction has always been a part of the game, mech warper and free mechs were very strong in GvG. Banning resurrect? Handbuff? Evolve is banned for manacheating but not runed mithril rod? Harpoon gun is ok, even though a 5-mana hydralodon just ends the game? This is all ridiculous and OP is nostalgic for a version of this game that never existed. I sure as hell don’t want to play chillwind yeti meta hearthstone.
The game needs to evolve but does not evolve in the way I would like it to evolve.
Introducing new mechanics and all is fine by me. I just have a problem with certain OP cards that shape the meta but they change them regularly with nerfs and buffs so I'm kinda okay with that too.
Hearthstone didn't change at ALL since it has been released. It's the same board, cards, and playstyle without any visual improvements whatsoever. The only thing that did change is some effects the cards have and new mechanics and that in my books is not enough.
And at the end of the day, they started to monetize so hard without any ground whatsoever.
Think about it like this. A game like NBA or FIFA or whatever. How those games changed during the years from 2014 until today.
Graphic improvements skyrocketed. They are visually way better. Graphics are amazing in today's games. I understand this is a card game and tends to be simple and easy to play but still. Continuing in this way Heartstone will fall behind other games. Even TFT has better graphics and overlay as a game.
There is a TON of improvements that can be done from a visual and graphic design point of view. If the game is visually attractive and up to date with today's games I think it might attract more players and at the end of the day be more enjoyable.
That's why I got annoyed when they started to monetize aggressively last year all around without any grounds.
Improve the overlay, and graphics, make it more visually appealing, and then we can talk more.
I don't believe it to be rose colored perspective, it is a hearthstone philosophy which i acknowledge maybe never have existed but i believe it should and i don't agree with the assestment that it will leade to so called yeti meta, as you said yourself combos like leeroy + shadowstep will still be available
Let us ban cards of our choice.
I highly doubt Raza would have been a problem if it weren't for Shadowreaper, and without Raza Shadowreaper is too slow a wincon with a Shadow Word: Ruin for a battlecry.
Without DK Anduin Raza is just heal 2 for 0, not exactly a reusable hero power so I don't understand why Raza was mentioned and not Defend the Dwarven District which isn't a 2-card combo that is always in your hand guaranteeing you'll fulfil requirements before turn 6 or 7— and Priest's infinite hp happened if you drew Raza and Shadowreaper early, let's not forget it was very possible to simple not draw Raza or Shadowreaper until your very last cards when you're dead already.
I don't agree with your overall suggestions to the games future though.
Good luck finding an opponent.
Like 90% of this list would be solved by playing a physical card game (or a digital client of one). Why not play one of those instead?
raza was mentioned a token for a specific gameplay design that defend the dwarven district also is a part of and therefor under this logic also banned, it is too much to mention every card.
what overall suggestions do you not agree with? :)
uninstalling makes life more enjoyable
And, yet, you continue to post here, even after you claimed to have stopped playing the game.
a dynamic banlist...
every month 5 most played cards in previous season are banned, and 3 random allready banned cards are unbanned... and this every month... that would change the meta over and over...
To live is to suffer, to survive is to find meaning in the suffer!
Remove 95% of the stupid damn discover and mana cheat garbage. It’s soo easy to cheat your way to a win. I lose to generated cards over 25% of games easily. 2,3,4 copies of the same broken legendaries is so common in the game right now that the “LEGENDARY” tag mean almost nothing besides “this card is probably broken, good thing you can only play 1, JK here is a copy and another” . Could you image having to put things in your deck to play them??!???!! Not hearthstone.
Stopped reading when you suggested discover was a bad mechanic. And it's the mechanic that made hearthstone popular, and got many other clones to copy it. It's a revolutionary mechanic that makes ccg's more exciting than tcg's. For a control freak they are a nightmare. But don't take this game more seriously than it is supposed to be taken.
discover outside the deck is a fine mechanic for some players who likes that random game style, but many people don't like that game style and it would be lovely not to be forced to play against it when you are trying to play a more thoughtful game style
I dont hate discover, I just think it should have serious restrictions on how many and what can be generated. If you have a patchwerk in your deck you shouldn’t get 2 more. discover should also have a tax. Cause finding something that fills the gap in your deck or responds to a board state you are not prepared for, of help your end the game, should NEVER come with upside. Cause the massive upside is having the cards.
The “Legendary” cards are balanced around playing exactly one of them. But there are tools all over the place to make their battle cry happen twice and play 3 copies of it.
My personal pet peeve is that cards that essentially just do a lot of totally random stuff and have about equal chance of outright winning or losing the the game for the person who plays them, should NOT be a viable win condition.
Sadly this has been the design philosophy of the Mage class for years now and it's honestly a completely embarrassment to the game.
Hearthstone is becoming more and more like a slot machine and less and less like a card game, it is a sad expirence and iv already quit once because of it, came back to hearthstone with an understanding thou that now it is a different type of game, but wow it is a totally different game, nothing matters outside of the rng