I attached a print of the best Frost DK deck on HSReplay for reference. Not a SINGLE dk card in that list uses corpses in any way. It doesnt even play Defrost, which is shocking.
The corpse mechanic crippled Unholy and Blood to the point they are barely playable, while the only good dk deck atm doesnt run corpse cards AT ALL. If this isnt a sight that something is wrong with it, I dont know what is.
"But dude, Frost cant generate corpses like Unholy and Blood do, so ofc it cant have high corpse costs", sure, but that is no excuse for what we are seeing rn, that is the strongest Frost DK list requiring ZERO corpses to function properly.
Is it a cost-benefit issue? Just decreasing or increasing corpse costs should fix it? Or is the concept of corpses being used as a second tax just bad in the first place? What do you guys think?
"One good performing deck doesn't use Corpses. Therefore, the entire mechanic is horrible!"
Its undeniable its failing to perform. Both archetypes that have no choice but to play corpse cards to even work are struggling greatly, while the one that can do without it is dominating the meta. Dont need to be Einstein to realize something is going wrong with the class, im just pointing out what I think it is.
I attached a print of the best Frost DK deck on HSReplay for reference.
[...]
What do you guys think?
No. You have a screenshot of the deck with the most games played under the constraint of a non-paying customers of a third party data collection site.
Based on the lowest standard ranks (you only see bronze to gold, and in default setting the aggregate number) you try to draw conclusions about a new mechanic.
I think that DK is just lacking cards and cards that are OP like the other classes. Give it some expansions and then check it again.
I attached a print of the best Frost DK deck on HSReplay for reference.
[...]
What do you guys think?
No. You have a screenshot of the deck with the most games available to non-paying
Its Thijs list, the same list everyone is using everywhere, even Zach0 recommends it in the last VS podcast.. Can we discuss the topic? For real?
Let me try to rephrase it: how come is dk performing great w/o any corpse cards? Wasnt this mechanic the core of the class design? What makes it unique compared to others?
Forcing DK into "everything must use corpses" is also terrible design? That's like saying "rogue decks MUST all use some combo cards" or "demon hunters MUST use lots of outcast cards" when the top decks of them hardly use any, if at all. Defrost and marrow manipulator aren't even bad cards, I don't see why a frost DK can't also be successful with those.
I attached a print of the best Frost DK deck on HSReplay for reference.
[...]
What do you guys think?
No. You have a screenshot of the deck with the most games available to non-paying
Its Thijs list, the same list everyone is using everywhere, even Zach0 recommends it in the last VS podcast.. Can we discuss the topic? For real?
Let me try to rephrase it: how come is dk performing great w/o any corpse cards? Wasnt this mechanic the core of the class design? What makes it unique compared to others?
It's a really strong deck because Renathal was nerfed and the majority of decks are back to 30 health.
That means Frost can ignore corpses and just burn you down. There were no buffs or anything. That doesn't mean that the corpse mechanic is a failure. Revert Renathal and Frost goes back down.
Corpses are a DK mechanic but it's not like you have to use them.
Forcing DK into "everything must use corpses" is also terrible design? That's like saying "rogue decks MUST all use some combo cards" or "demon hunters MUST use lots of outcast cards" when the top decks of them hardly use any, if at all. Defrost and marrow manipulator aren't even bad cards, I don't see why a frost DK can't also be successful with those.
When DH was released, Outcast was THE best mechanic in the game. Skull of Gul'dan remains to this day one of the most powerful draw engines ever made. Even after everything was nerfed, Outcast remained a great mechanic for many expansions. They got it right multiple times, same with combo. They didnt get it right at all with corpses, its been a failure, and im wondering why.
I attached a print of the best Frost DK deck on HSReplay for reference.
[...]
What do you guys think?
No. You have a screenshot of the deck with the most games available to non-paying
Its Thijs list, the same list everyone is using everywhere, even Zach0 recommends it in the last VS podcast.. Can we discuss the topic? For real?
Let me try to rephrase it: how come is dk performing great w/o any corpse cards? Wasnt this mechanic the core of the class design? What makes it unique compared to others?
It's a really strong deck because Renathal was nerfed and the majority of decks are back to 30 health.
That means Frost can ignore corpses and just burn you down. There were no buffs or anything. That doesn't mean that the corpse mechanic is a failure. Revert Renathal and Frost goes back down.
Corpses are a DK mechanic but it's not like you have to use them.
The class has just been released, with an entirely new and exclusive mechanic at its core, and the first ever great dk list found decides the best course of action is to cast it aside entirely? If thats not an indication the mechanic is failing, what is then?
Forcing DK into "everything must use corpses" is also terrible design? That's like saying "rogue decks MUST all use some combo cards" or "demon hunters MUST use lots of outcast cards" when the top decks of them hardly use any, if at all. Defrost and marrow manipulator aren't even bad cards, I don't see why a frost DK can't also be successful with those.
When DH was released, Outcast was THE best mechanic in the game. Skull of Gul'dan remains to this day one of the most powerful draw engines ever made. Even after everything was nerfed, Outcast remained a great mechanic for many expansions. They got it right multiple times, same with combo. They didnt get it right at all with corpses, its been a failure, and im wondering why.
But they did get it right. Both blood and unholy DK heavily use corpses, just because one archetype of the class isn't using corpses doesn't mean the class has just failed design wise. DK has a really tiny card pool, and until it stops having like 1/3 the current card pool that other classes do, I wouldn't expect much in terms of new developments, If it had 3x the available cards you bet your ass there would be some more cards that use corpses in frost.
Frost was also designed to be spell heavy so it would make sense corpses aren't heavily involved, since you'd need minions to actually get them. Unholy by design has heavy corpse generation in plagued grain, meat grinder, etc. Not all DK runes have to use corpses as aggressively as unholy does.
Forcing DK into "everything must use corpses" is also terrible design? That's like saying "rogue decks MUST all use some combo cards" or "demon hunters MUST use lots of outcast cards" when the top decks of them hardly use any, if at all. Defrost and marrow manipulator aren't even bad cards, I don't see why a frost DK can't also be successful with those.
When DH was released, Outcast was THE best mechanic in the game. Skull of Gul'dan remains to this day one of the most powerful draw engines ever made. Even after everything was nerfed, Outcast remained a great mechanic for many expansions. They got it right multiple times, same with combo. They didnt get it right at all with corpses, its been a failure, and im wondering why.
But they did get it right. Both blood and unholy DK heavily use corpses, just because one archetype of the class isn't using corpses doesn't mean the class has just failed design wise. DK has a really tiny card pool, and until it stops having like 1/3 the current card pool that other classes do, I wouldn't expect much in terms of new developments, If it had 3x the available cards you bet your ass there would be some more cards that use corpses in frost.
Frost was also designed to be spell heavy so it would make sense corpses aren't heavily involved, since you'd need minions to actually get them. Unholy by design has heavy corpse generation in plagued grain, meat grinder, etc. Not all DK runes have to use corpses as aggressively as unholy does.
Frost cant generate many corpses cuz its spell based, so lets make the class work great w/o any need for them? Does that make sense to you?
Neither rune should need corpses for the same reasons, that would go against their flavour in the first place. But they all should be required to spend corpses in some way, somehow. Otherwise the mechanic is just pointless, cuz rn the archetype that doesnt give a shit about it is the better one for it, thats just failed design.
Paying a second tax for a card only makes sense if that cards payoff is too strong if it costed only mana. Thats not what we're seeing in dk right now. Hope it doesnt become another Overload, which suffers from similar issues.
I’m not sure yet if it’s just a balance issue. Time will tell, I guess.
It’s also true that no one plays hybrid DK decks, right? All red, all blue, or all green. I think the intent was to make hybrids viable, but that hasn’t worked out.
I’m not sure yet if it’s just a balance issue. Time will tell, I guess.
It’s also true that no one plays hybrid DK decks, right? All red, all blue, or all green. I think the intent was to make hybrids viable, but that hasn’t worked out.
That one is the Rune systems fault actually, as it doesnt apply to cards you discover.
Why dip into a different rune when I can play triple rune, get all the best payoffs possible, and then discover cards from other runes if I need them?
Discover makes rune dipping in dk completely pointless. Its something that can be fixed with time though, they just need to release good payoffs that require rune dipping (cards with 1B/1U tags, for example). Not sure if time can fix corpses though, the mechanic seems too flawed in its current state.
The corpse mechanic is fine ... that battlecries (with discover) and spells are better, so be it.
Personally, I cannot stand that deck (or decks like it from the past) ... it is basically a face deck WITH freeze mechanics ... combining two of the most irritating/frustrating things to deal with in HS. It just ignores my board (I like to play minion-based midrange decks) and freezes me out turn after turn. Yay, fun ... so why did they remove Frost Nova and tone down the freeze stuff in Mage again? Unfortunately, they just nerfed a control card ... where control would be able to keep a face deck like this in check ...
As for corpses ... I'm thinking a tech card would be neat ... like that card that popped divine shields and gained stats ... something that eats your opponent's corpses and gains stats (a reverse Lord Marrowgar as it were).
I attached a print of the best Frost DK deck on HSReplay for reference. Not a SINGLE dk card in that list uses corpses in any way. It doesnt even play Defrost, which is shocking.
The corpse mechanic crippled Unholy and Blood to the point they are barely playable, while the only good dk deck atm doesnt run corpse cards AT ALL. If this isnt a sight that something is wrong with it, I dont know what is.
"But dude, Frost cant generate corpses like Unholy and Blood do, so ofc it cant have high corpse costs", sure, but that is no excuse for what we are seeing rn, that is the strongest Frost DK list requiring ZERO corpses to function properly.
Is it a cost-benefit issue? Just decreasing or increasing corpse costs should fix it? Or is the concept of corpses being used as a second tax just bad in the first place? What do you guys think?
"One good performing deck doesn't use Corpses. Therefore, the entire mechanic is horrible!"
and thats what we call
CLICKBAIT
Its undeniable its failing to perform. Both archetypes that have no choice but to play corpse cards to even work are struggling greatly, while the one that can do without it is dominating the meta. Dont need to be Einstein to realize something is going wrong with the class, im just pointing out what I think it is.
If not corpses, what else can be the problem?
No. You have a screenshot of the deck with the most games played under the constraint of a non-paying customers of a third party data collection site.
Based on the lowest standard ranks (you only see bronze to gold, and in default setting the aggregate number) you try to draw conclusions about a new mechanic.
I think that DK is just lacking cards and cards that are OP like the other classes. Give it some expansions and then check it again.
Its Thijs list, the same list everyone is using everywhere, even Zach0 recommends it in the last VS podcast.. Can we discuss the topic? For real?
Let me try to rephrase it: how come is dk performing great w/o any corpse cards? Wasnt this mechanic the core of the class design? What makes it unique compared to others?
Forcing DK into "everything must use corpses" is also terrible design? That's like saying "rogue decks MUST all use some combo cards" or "demon hunters MUST use lots of outcast cards" when the top decks of them hardly use any, if at all. Defrost and marrow manipulator aren't even bad cards, I don't see why a frost DK can't also be successful with those.
It's a really strong deck because Renathal was nerfed and the majority of decks are back to 30 health.
That means Frost can ignore corpses and just burn you down. There were no buffs or anything. That doesn't mean that the corpse mechanic is a failure. Revert Renathal and Frost goes back down.
Corpses are a DK mechanic but it's not like you have to use them.
When DH was released, Outcast was THE best mechanic in the game. Skull of Gul'dan remains to this day one of the most powerful draw engines ever made. Even after everything was nerfed, Outcast remained a great mechanic for many expansions. They got it right multiple times, same with combo. They didnt get it right at all with corpses, its been a failure, and im wondering why.
The class has just been released, with an entirely new and exclusive mechanic at its core, and the first ever great dk list found decides the best course of action is to cast it aside entirely? If thats not an indication the mechanic is failing, what is then?
But they did get it right. Both blood and unholy DK heavily use corpses, just because one archetype of the class isn't using corpses doesn't mean the class has just failed design wise. DK has a really tiny card pool, and until it stops having like 1/3 the current card pool that other classes do, I wouldn't expect much in terms of new developments, If it had 3x the available cards you bet your ass there would be some more cards that use corpses in frost.
Frost was also designed to be spell heavy so it would make sense corpses aren't heavily involved, since you'd need minions to actually get them. Unholy by design has heavy corpse generation in plagued grain, meat grinder, etc. Not all DK runes have to use corpses as aggressively as unholy does.
restrictive mechanics have always been bad
it's good in Arena.
I hate that I don't get corpses as other classes. In case I steal a card, I would like to be able to use those dead bodies I have generated.
IF I steal an Outcast card I can use it. If I steal a combo card I can use it. Secret card I can use.
So, I propose if you steal a card with corpses you get a little skull counter on your side also.
Frost cant generate many corpses cuz its spell based, so lets make the class work great w/o any need for them? Does that make sense to you?
Neither rune should need corpses for the same reasons, that would go against their flavour in the first place. But they all should be required to spend corpses in some way, somehow. Otherwise the mechanic is just pointless, cuz rn the archetype that doesnt give a shit about it is the better one for it, thats just failed design.
Paying a second tax for a card only makes sense if that cards payoff is too strong if it costed only mana. Thats not what we're seeing in dk right now. Hope it doesnt become another Overload, which suffers from similar issues.
Laughs in battlecry abuse
DJ
I’m not sure yet if it’s just a balance issue. Time will tell, I guess.
It’s also true that no one plays hybrid DK decks, right? All red, all blue, or all green. I think the intent was to make hybrids viable, but that hasn’t worked out.
That one is the Rune systems fault actually, as it doesnt apply to cards you discover.
Why dip into a different rune when I can play triple rune, get all the best payoffs possible, and then discover cards from other runes if I need them?
Discover makes rune dipping in dk completely pointless. Its something that can be fixed with time though, they just need to release good payoffs that require rune dipping (cards with 1B/1U tags, for example). Not sure if time can fix corpses though, the mechanic seems too flawed in its current state.
*New class appears*
*Hearthpwn forum 1 month later*: OMG IT IS SO HORRIBLE MECHANIC DEAD BLIZZARD BAD
The corpse mechanic is fine ... that battlecries (with discover) and spells are better, so be it.
Personally, I cannot stand that deck (or decks like it from the past) ... it is basically a face deck WITH freeze mechanics ... combining two of the most irritating/frustrating things to deal with in HS. It just ignores my board (I like to play minion-based midrange decks) and freezes me out turn after turn. Yay, fun ... so why did they remove Frost Nova and tone down the freeze stuff in Mage again?
Unfortunately, they just nerfed a control card ... where control would be able to keep a face deck like this in check ...
As for corpses ... I'm thinking a tech card would be neat ... like that card that popped divine shields and gained stats ... something that eats your opponent's corpses and gains stats (a reverse Lord Marrowgar as it were).