I'll give them credit where it's due since at least they limited how many minions could be cheated out through armor.
Then I'll dock points from them because they really thought releasing this card & Astalor Bloodsworn while Brann was still in Standard would be a great idea for a class that can already Brann + Sire Denathrius thanks to Guff.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Was friends with Paladin, now Death Knights are my homies.
I was also at full health. He played 32 mana worth of stuff on turn 6 having also drawn 5 cards on the way while ramping. Cleared my whole board and OTK'd me at the same time. Anub'Rekhan is basically a free 7/7 with an upside.
These types of games are why I think Hearthstone is basically broken now. I know this was a slight highroll on their part, but it shouldn't be able to happen (and it's likely it would have happened before turn 10 anyway).
It's like rogues playing 0 mana 10 cost spells on turn 4, mages playing 0 mana 10 cost spells which then get repeated with a battlecry that says "Repeat the last spell you've cast that costs (5) or more." To be clear I'm OK with the initial 0 cost spell manipulation through Barbaric Sorceress. It requires some deck design limitation, you can see it coming and as a singular effect it's often not game deciding on it's own. But why does it get repeated?
Mana cheat isn't fun or fair (I include the evolve mechanic with Goldshire Gnoll and similar). The classes with no mana cheat are basically dead in the water (or are forced to play aggro/face decks).
Rogue is the worst offender when comes to highroll that´s why its still the best class in the game with multiple good decks even after the harsh nerfs, being able to consistently scam your opponent and insanely amount of mana cheating its simply disgusting. They have been pushing thief archetype so hard for such a long time that now we have this absolute shit show, i remember when contraband stash came out and Frozen was reviewing the set his first impression was literally "this is going to be broken at some point,there is no way".
Also, you can randomly generate over 70 armor gain with Rogue but still die to that druid combo, pretty ridiculous. hahaha
This is basically the whole meta right now. You either play something that can burst for 40+ in a turn or two, or you play something that cheats out enormous boards really early. Those are the only two strategies at the moment. Interactionstone.
I did suggest aggro decks in one of my replies, but is that really how this game should be? A coin-flip of whether you are playing the counter to the opponents deck (that you have no control over)? That doens't seem like a very fun game to me.
Also - regardless of whick decks might to well against something like this, it still shouldn't be possible. The game is premised around certain rules. Cards cost mana, mana == power etc. These are the rules the game needs to be based upon, otherwise it's going to the shitter
In the example I posted they didn't even need Guff - 32 mana of stuff (board clear & OTK) on turn 6 from 10 mana. That's just daft.
The solution to this type of problem isnt to make it so that aggro decks can kill you on turn 4, it's to change these cards and make them fair (in the context of the game).
sorry but you are playing a deck with zero early game. druid farms these
You'll see from the pictures that the deck doesn't have zero early game. He's down to 17 from 35 (and healed some along the way). It's not an aggro deck - that's true, but we are only on turn 6.
I'm not particularly salty about losing - if that was a huge concern to me I wouldn't be playing shaman. But the manner in which it occured is just wrong. Mechanics like the ones in the pictures need to be removed from the game. No class should be able to wipe a board and OTK by turn 6 entirely from hand. There is (you would think) a reason why Sire Denathrius was included in pretty much any non-aggro deck and subsequently nerfed. Astalor Bloodsworn is basically the same mechanic with a few earlier steps and no real set-up except that he gives druids the ability to easily do 64 damage from hand.
During the last round of nerfs the Dev comment was "Miracle Rogue makes for very bad play experiences when their pop-off turns are too powerful too soon". Is there any real difference with Druid? I can assure you that I had a very bad play experience because they popped-off too soon. At least against miracle rogue you get a chance to do something on your turn (even if it is futile), and you can arguably stop some of the damage through taunts.
Also - the implication from your statement is that Druid farms ALL decks that aren't aggro (assuming "early game" == aggro) - is that what you're implying? Because that also seems like a terrible design for a game with 10 classes. No space for non aggro decks because Druid is the king of control/OTK.
In reality I think this is what you're implying because I also think it's true. No other class can do the "40 mana in one turn" stuff that a druid can do (along with healing for a huge amount along the way and getting massive value from do-nothing cards through Topior the Shrubbagazzor), which kind of reinforces my point. It's not just unhealthy for the game - it's downright toxic.
The problems with druid goes beyond this OTK though. They are able to draw, ramp and tutor key cards with minimal loss of tempo or draw. They can also heal large amounts and with Guff they often have twice the mana of the opponent.
Why does Aquatic Form cost 0? It's silly and will be an auto include in all druid decks until it rotates. There is absolutely no reason not to put it in your deck regardless of whether it's aggro or OTK. What about Underking - 6/6 rush heal 12? Also overpowered. Wild Growth is a 3 cost - do nothing card which is still played in druid. Widowbloom Seedsman does the same thing for 1 mana more but also leaves a body and lets you draw a specific type of spell. Why does Topior the Shrubbagazzor give the summoned minions rush? It just turns everyting into removal.
There are so many poor design desicions for Druid as a class overall that I don't think we'll see a balanced meta until most of these cards rotate. In the meantime it would be nice if you didn't die from a stupid OTK on turn 6...
No other class can do the "40 mana in one turn" stuff that a druid can do (along with healing for a huge amount along the way and getting massive value from do-nothing cards through Topior the Shrubbagazzor), which kind of reinforces my point. It's not just unhealthy for the game - it's downright toxic.
The problems with druid goes beyond this OTK though. They are able to draw, ramp and tutor key cards with minimal loss of tempo or draw. They can also heal large amounts and with Guff they often have twice the mana of the opponent.
This is what I hate about current Hearthstone. There are multiple classes for a reason. They each have their own strengths and weaknesses. Druid is supposed to be bad at tempo in exchange to ramp Mana for future board swings. Now the design team thought it'd be cool if those weaknesses were remedied by cards like Aquatic Form and Moonlit Guidance to tutor for their needed cards. They even gave Scale of Onyxia to Druid, the class that lacked in good removal, and suddenly now Druid has an answer to the wide boards or even big minions.
I don't know what's been going on in the card designer team ever since Ben Brode left but I despise the apparent philosophy of making classes good by reducing their weaknesses and giving them cards to let them cheat mana. If anything, they should probably go towards actually playtesting their cards and ask themselves if maybe making a class consistently being able to draw their win conditions and play them much earlier than the other player would be fun.
I did suggest aggro decks in one of my replies, but is that really how this game should be? A coin-flip of whether you are playing the counter to the opponents deck (that you have no control over)? That doens't seem like a very fun game to me.
Also - regardless of whick decks might to well against something like this, it still shouldn't be possible. The game is premised around certain rules. Cards cost mana, mana == power etc. These are the rules the game needs to be based upon, otherwise it's going to the shitter
In the example I posted they didn't even need Guff - 32 mana of stuff (board clear & OTK) on turn 6 from 10 mana. That's just daft.
The solution to this type of problem isnt to make it so that aggro decks can kill you on turn 4, it's to change these cards and make them fair (in the context of the game).
Hearthstone is not meant to be fun, it's meant to be addictive. Those pictures are showing exactly what the game is supposed to do.
Tell me, was your reaction something "WTF just happened!?"? Yes? Then congratulations, you're most likely going to continue playing the game in the near future. Oh but it wasn't fun for you? No worries. Blizzard will still take your money.
I did suggest aggro decks in one of my replies, but is that really how this game should be? A coin-flip of whether you are playing the counter to the opponents deck (that you have no control over)? That doens't seem like a very fun game to me.
Also - regardless of whick decks might to well against something like this, it still shouldn't be possible. The game is premised around certain rules. Cards cost mana, mana == power etc. These are the rules the game needs to be based upon, otherwise it's going to the shitter
In the example I posted they didn't even need Guff - 32 mana of stuff (board clear & OTK) on turn 6 from 10 mana. That's just daft.
The solution to this type of problem isnt to make it so that aggro decks can kill you on turn 4, it's to change these cards and make them fair (in the context of the game).
Hearthstone is not meant to be fun, it's meant to be addictive. Those pictures are showing exactly what the game is supposed to do.
Tell me, was your reaction something "WTF just happened!?"? Yes? Then congratulations, you're most likely going to continue playing the game in the near future. Oh but it wasn't fun for you? No worries. Blizzard will still take your money.
Actually - quite the opposite. It makes me want to stop playing and Blizz wont get any of my money.
I have zero interest in playing a coin-flip solitaire game where my actions (beyond which cards I put in my deck) are meaningless. This is basically the situation we have right now. Each deck does it's thing and the one that cheats the most, the quickest, wins (or gets killed by aggro). I will not play an OTK deck as they do not interest me, and being forced to play aggro because that's the only other option is also not fun to me.
I noticed that the Renethal nerf has also created an opening for the return of face/burn decks now too, which are also extremely fun to play against.
Unless it changes Hearthstone is done for me. I don't expect anyone to care, and if you enjoy Hearthstone in it's current incarnation, that's great for you. But its not for me.
Face mage/Frost DK at the top of the meta? Is it time for the forbidden class to be played, warrior? Call to the Stand is pretty good against druid too to fish out astalor, brann or anub'rekan.
Bliztard already know this. but he is taking his time......pretending he cares...just waiting for those delicious packs-bundles-seasonal passes to get bought.
once they are full and satisfied, they will "nerf" those cards-decks.
MTG and yugioh do the same thing..........
they intentionally made broken cards; to hype you up, inflate your ego , to make you eager to fill that ego meter, by winning and feeling powerful because you have that card and not others.
its just so corurpted and lame. and people fall in this trap because its subconscious manipulation. you are so desperate to win...that VISA will speed up things. that drug is powerful.-dopamine-
it was such a good time when you could win with a control deck without any combo shit including these « win from the hand » stupidities.
I was very happy when they nerfed Denathrius but Brann + Astalor is maybe even worse so in fact nothing changed. And there is Jace… Jace is such a wonderful experience too.
I know I should play aggro but I don’t have fun doing it. I just hope others will do it and destroy these greedy combo players.
A Hearthstone dev already indicated that Brann won't be included in the core set after rotation. But their decision to let this card remain in standard until then is still a big mistake imo. Bringing him back to standard while knowing full well that he'll cause havoc was already a questionable decision. Keep in mind that all sets for this year were already planned and developed when they made that decision.
Maybe this is exactly what they want the game to be. A lot of people seem to enjoy this fast paced meta. Otherwise they wouldn't continue to go this route. I personally don't like it all but who am i to decide what they should do?
I don't mind a faced paced meta assuming it still has a place for aggro, tempo and control. An aggro deck can lose or win quickly against control (or at least that's how it used to be). Once aggro knew control had turned the corner, the game was done and they usually conceded.
What we have now is something else. A game where pretty much everything (except aggro) is "death from hand" and having minions on the board is almost a liability as it enables healing for the oponent. The exceptions are stupidly high-roll decks such as evolve shammie and rogue, which rely on some mega minion(s) on turn 2 or 3 that the oponent can't deal with.
I really hope (but have zero reason to believe) that the Dev's take a step back and look at what they've created. There's nothing fun or clever about the mechanics of hearthstone these days. It's all about mana cheat, discover, and OTK with a sprinkling of aggro in there for good measure. Out of all of those aggro is probably the most honest deck style and even it has some absurdly powerful plays now (looking at you imp-lock).
The game shouldn't be solitaire for two. Decisions, resources and mana should matter. They currently dont.
I don't mind a faced paced meta assuming it still has a place for aggro, tempo and control. An aggro deck can lose or win quickly against control (or at least that's how it used to be). Once aggro knew control had turned the corner, the game was done and they usually conceded.
What we have now is something else. A game where pretty much everything (except aggro) is "death from hand" and having minions on the board is almost a liability as it enables healing for the oponent. The exceptions are stupidly high-roll decks such as evolve shammie and rogue, which rely on some mega minion(s) on turn 2 or 3 that the oponent can't deal with.
I really hope (but have zero reason to believe) that the Dev's take a step back and look at what they've created. There's nothing fun or clever about the mechanics of hearthstone these days. It's all about mana cheat, discover, and OTK with a sprinkling of aggro in there for good measure. Out of all of those aggro is probably the most honest deck style and even it has some absurdly powerful plays now (looking at you imp-lock).
The game shouldn't be solitaire for two. Decisions, resources and mana should matter. They currently dont.
100% agreed.
Also the game now has way too many unplayable cards due to power creep and broken combos that can suddenly end the game(little diversity even in wild with how many expansions?).
More and more games that leave bad taste regardless of win/loss.
Hearthstone will be left only with those who enjoy netdecking and abusing whatever is most broken.
Twas fun while it lasted.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Developers' inability to balance is one thing; players choosing to abuse it is another.
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
Turn 6 - lost a full board and died to Brann-Druid shite. It was such a fun and interactive gameplay experience.
I'll give them credit where it's due since at least they limited how many minions could be cheated out through armor.
Then I'll dock points from them because they really thought releasing this card & Astalor Bloodsworn while Brann was still in Standard would be a great idea for a class that can already Brann + Sire Denathrius thanks to Guff.
Was friends with Paladin, now Death Knights are my homies.
I was also at full health. He played 32 mana worth of stuff on turn 6 having also drawn 5 cards on the way while ramping. Cleared my whole board and OTK'd me at the same time. Anub'Rekhan is basically a free 7/7 with an upside.
These types of games are why I think Hearthstone is basically broken now. I know this was a slight highroll on their part, but it shouldn't be able to happen (and it's likely it would have happened before turn 10 anyway).
It's like rogues playing 0 mana 10 cost spells on turn 4, mages playing 0 mana 10 cost spells which then get repeated with a battlecry that says "Repeat the last spell you've cast that costs (5) or more." To be clear I'm OK with the initial 0 cost spell manipulation through Barbaric Sorceress. It requires some deck design limitation, you can see it coming and as a singular effect it's often not game deciding on it's own. But why does it get repeated?
Mana cheat isn't fun or fair (I include the evolve mechanic with Goldshire Gnoll and similar). The classes with no mana cheat are basically dead in the water (or are forced to play aggro/face decks).
Dumb devs don't want to do so, just stop playing until it's rotated.
Rogue is the worst offender when comes to highroll that´s why its still the best class in the game with multiple good decks even after the harsh nerfs, being able to consistently scam your opponent and insanely amount of mana cheating its simply disgusting. They have been pushing thief archetype so hard for such a long time that now we have this absolute shit show, i remember when contraband stash came out and Frozen was reviewing the set his first impression was literally "this is going to be broken at some point,there is no way".
Also, you can randomly generate over 70 armor gain with Rogue but still die to that druid combo, pretty ridiculous. hahaha
Use aggro decks.
This is basically the whole meta right now. You either play something that can burst for 40+ in a turn or two, or you play something that cheats out enormous boards really early. Those are the only two strategies at the moment. Interactionstone.
I did suggest aggro decks in one of my replies, but is that really how this game should be? A coin-flip of whether you are playing the counter to the opponents deck (that you have no control over)? That doens't seem like a very fun game to me.
Also - regardless of whick decks might to well against something like this, it still shouldn't be possible. The game is premised around certain rules. Cards cost mana, mana == power etc. These are the rules the game needs to be based upon, otherwise it's going to the shitter
In the example I posted they didn't even need Guff - 32 mana of stuff (board clear & OTK) on turn 6 from 10 mana. That's just daft.
The solution to this type of problem isnt to make it so that aggro decks can kill you on turn 4, it's to change these cards and make them fair (in the context of the game).
sorry but you are playing a deck with zero early game. druid farms these
You'll see from the pictures that the deck doesn't have zero early game. He's down to 17 from 35 (and healed some along the way). It's not an aggro deck - that's true, but we are only on turn 6.
I'm not particularly salty about losing - if that was a huge concern to me I wouldn't be playing shaman. But the manner in which it occured is just wrong. Mechanics like the ones in the pictures need to be removed from the game. No class should be able to wipe a board and OTK by turn 6 entirely from hand. There is (you would think) a reason why Sire Denathrius was included in pretty much any non-aggro deck and subsequently nerfed. Astalor Bloodsworn is basically the same mechanic with a few earlier steps and no real set-up except that he gives druids the ability to easily do 64 damage from hand.
During the last round of nerfs the Dev comment was "Miracle Rogue makes for very bad play experiences when their pop-off turns are too powerful too soon". Is there any real difference with Druid? I can assure you that I had a very bad play experience because they popped-off too soon. At least against miracle rogue you get a chance to do something on your turn (even if it is futile), and you can arguably stop some of the damage through taunts.
Also - the implication from your statement is that Druid farms ALL decks that aren't aggro (assuming "early game" == aggro) - is that what you're implying? Because that also seems like a terrible design for a game with 10 classes. No space for non aggro decks because Druid is the king of control/OTK.
In reality I think this is what you're implying because I also think it's true. No other class can do the "40 mana in one turn" stuff that a druid can do (along with healing for a huge amount along the way and getting massive value from do-nothing cards through Topior the Shrubbagazzor), which kind of reinforces my point. It's not just unhealthy for the game - it's downright toxic.
The problems with druid goes beyond this OTK though. They are able to draw, ramp and tutor key cards with minimal loss of tempo or draw. They can also heal large amounts and with Guff they often have twice the mana of the opponent.
Why does Aquatic Form cost 0? It's silly and will be an auto include in all druid decks until it rotates. There is absolutely no reason not to put it in your deck regardless of whether it's aggro or OTK. What about Underking - 6/6 rush heal 12? Also overpowered. Wild Growth is a 3 cost - do nothing card which is still played in druid. Widowbloom Seedsman does the same thing for 1 mana more but also leaves a body and lets you draw a specific type of spell. Why does Topior the Shrubbagazzor give the summoned minions rush? It just turns everyting into removal.
There are so many poor design desicions for Druid as a class overall that I don't think we'll see a balanced meta until most of these cards rotate. In the meantime it would be nice if you didn't die from a stupid OTK on turn 6...
This is what I hate about current Hearthstone. There are multiple classes for a reason. They each have their own strengths and weaknesses. Druid is supposed to be bad at tempo in exchange to ramp Mana for future board swings. Now the design team thought it'd be cool if those weaknesses were remedied by cards like Aquatic Form and Moonlit Guidance to tutor for their needed cards. They even gave Scale of Onyxia to Druid, the class that lacked in good removal, and suddenly now Druid has an answer to the wide boards or even big minions.
I don't know what's been going on in the card designer team ever since Ben Brode left but I despise the apparent philosophy of making classes good by reducing their weaknesses and giving them cards to let them cheat mana. If anything, they should probably go towards actually playtesting their cards and ask themselves if maybe making a class consistently being able to draw their win conditions and play them much earlier than the other player would be fun.
Was friends with Paladin, now Death Knights are my homies.
Hearthstone is not meant to be fun, it's meant to be addictive. Those pictures are showing exactly what the game is supposed to do.
Tell me, was your reaction something "WTF just happened!?"? Yes? Then congratulations, you're most likely going to continue playing the game in the near future. Oh but it wasn't fun for you? No worries. Blizzard will still take your money.
Actually - quite the opposite. It makes me want to stop playing and Blizz wont get any of my money.
I have zero interest in playing a coin-flip solitaire game where my actions (beyond which cards I put in my deck) are meaningless. This is basically the situation we have right now. Each deck does it's thing and the one that cheats the most, the quickest, wins (or gets killed by aggro). I will not play an OTK deck as they do not interest me, and being forced to play aggro because that's the only other option is also not fun to me.
I noticed that the Renethal nerf has also created an opening for the return of face/burn decks now too, which are also extremely fun to play against.
Unless it changes Hearthstone is done for me. I don't expect anyone to care, and if you enjoy Hearthstone in it's current incarnation, that's great for you. But its not for me.
Face mage/Frost DK at the top of the meta? Is it time for the forbidden class to be played, warrior? Call to the Stand is pretty good against druid too to fish out astalor, brann or anub'rekan.
Just immediately concede against rogue though.
WHY? MONEY.
Bliztard already know this. but he is taking his time......pretending he cares...just waiting for those delicious packs-bundles-seasonal passes to get bought.
once they are full and satisfied, they will "nerf" those cards-decks.
MTG and yugioh do the same thing..........
they intentionally made broken cards; to hype you up, inflate your ego , to make you eager to fill that ego meter, by winning and feeling powerful because you have that card and not others.
its just so corurpted and lame. and people fall in this trap because its subconscious manipulation. you are so desperate to win...that VISA will speed up things. that drug is powerful.-dopamine-
go face!
Brann will be in Core 2023 guaranteed.
I want the game I loved back.
it was such a good time when you could win with a control deck without any combo shit including these « win from the hand » stupidities.
I was very happy when they nerfed Denathrius but Brann + Astalor is maybe even worse so in fact nothing changed. And there is Jace… Jace is such a wonderful experience too.
I know I should play aggro but I don’t have fun doing it. I just hope others will do it and destroy these greedy combo players.
A Hearthstone dev already indicated that Brann won't be included in the core set after rotation.
But their decision to let this card remain in standard until then is still a big mistake imo.
Bringing him back to standard while knowing full well that he'll cause havoc was already a questionable decision.
Keep in mind that all sets for this year were already planned and developed when they made that decision.
Maybe this is exactly what they want the game to be.
A lot of people seem to enjoy this fast paced meta. Otherwise they wouldn't continue to go this route.
I personally don't like it all but who am i to decide what they should do?
I don't mind a faced paced meta assuming it still has a place for aggro, tempo and control. An aggro deck can lose or win quickly against control (or at least that's how it used to be). Once aggro knew control had turned the corner, the game was done and they usually conceded.
What we have now is something else. A game where pretty much everything (except aggro) is "death from hand" and having minions on the board is almost a liability as it enables healing for the oponent. The exceptions are stupidly high-roll decks such as evolve shammie and rogue, which rely on some mega minion(s) on turn 2 or 3 that the oponent can't deal with.
I really hope (but have zero reason to believe) that the Dev's take a step back and look at what they've created. There's nothing fun or clever about the mechanics of hearthstone these days. It's all about mana cheat, discover, and OTK with a sprinkling of aggro in there for good measure. Out of all of those aggro is probably the most honest deck style and even it has some absurdly powerful plays now (looking at you imp-lock).
The game shouldn't be solitaire for two. Decisions, resources and mana should matter. They currently dont.
100% agreed.
Also the game now has way too many unplayable cards due to power creep and broken combos that can suddenly end the game(little diversity even in wild with how many expansions?).
More and more games that leave bad taste regardless of win/loss.
Hearthstone will be left only with those who enjoy netdecking and abusing whatever is most broken.
Twas fun while it lasted.
Developers' inability to balance is one thing; players choosing to abuse it is another.