Firstly, Scourge Rager doesn't proc Jungle Giants twice when you play it from hand. Just because the shitty battlecry triggers before the minion enters play... I understand that's how battlecries are supposed to work but that's just silly, the first Rager doesn't even exist it's just gone. The card text should really be tweaked to account for this and acknowledge the Rager that is played on the board, and this isn't just for me. I have no doubt that this interaction will blue-ball a lot of players trying similar strategies in different decks.
Next, Anub'arak. What good is this "legendary"? It's awful, it's just a dead card. I've had him since Grand Tournament because he's cool, I want to make a deck that can take advantage of his effect but it's impossible. Cheating him out is pointless because he only has 4 health and I have to pay full price to play him again. Now, all of this wouldn't be a problem if only his deathrattle worked properly with Counterfeit Blade. This weapon is the only hope Anub'arak has of being played effectively, and it's broken because Anub'arak's deathrattle doesn't function as described in the card text. The deathrattle doesn't "Return this to your hand...", it adds a 9-mana Anub'arak to your hand. So no infinite Counterfeit Blade summoning 4/4 Nerubians (which isn't even that strong nowadays), just a new 9-mana Anub'arak.
Unfortunately, fringe cases like this don't get a lot of attention, for obvious reasons. But it'd be nice if my Anub'arak didn't have to be disenchanted. Also, shouldn't Lost Soul be an Undead?
Here's question you probably can't answer. If the battlecry read "Deal 4 damage to this minion" would it still be the same outcome with Jungle Giants? The minion has to exist on board to take damage, therefor it must have been summoned.
Anyway, while we're at it Rattlegore also suffers from the Anub'arak effect of not doing what it says on the card. If you buff/de-buff him - doesn't matter, he comes back with -1/-1 from what the previous deathrattle thinks he should be. If you steal/copy the deathrattle and put in on another minion - you're still getting Rattlegore back, not the other minion.
Stuff like this is inexcusable in a card game (imo), where the interactions matter and decide what you do in a game. For the most part you shouldn't have to try something once to see what happens.
As for an interaction which grinds my gears - stealing/copying a Souleater's Scythe soul card does not let you discover anything at all, even though the minions are "already inside the soul cards". Lost a game because of that one...
p.s. I'm not asking people to use mental gymnastics to try and explain why it works the way it does - the simple fact is that it doesn't do what it says it should do.
When the minion summoned takes enough direct damage from its battlecry to kill it, it is present on the board for a moment as a 0-Health or negative-Health minion before dying, long enough to trigger summon effects. I've seen this with minions like Injured Blademaster so I know it works differently.
It happens to me since i started to play HS, that some wording on cards just dont make sense and i lose important games because of it...it can be really frustrating, that you sometimes cant rely on logic, but just need to know what happens. Maybe also my logic is sometimes wrong :)
So just lately i lost a game due to this:
Warlock opponent played The Jailer, all minions are immune and cant be attacked nor targeted...however i had Sire Denathrius in my hand, which i stole from his hand. He had about 10 hp and just enough, so i can finish him off with Sire Denathrius...well it turns out stupid ass Sire Denathrius nuked all the shit into the immune, untouchable, not targetable minions. Well played...how does this make sense?
The most irritating thing about Scourge Rager is that it doesn't trigger the "Play 10 Reborn Minions" quest we currently have as part of the event (because of what you say) ...
There aren't many reborn minions in standard (only 4 ... Invincible, Blightblood Berserker, Malignant Horror, and Thassarian ... the reset are all summon) so played one wild game to complete it ... irritating for people who don't have access to those wild cards ... yes, BGs will probably do it, but I don't play that mode (if it is not part of a daily).
Sire Denathrius nuked all the shit into the immune, untouchable, not targetable minions. Well played...how does this make sense?
The minions are just immune: they can't be targeted and can't take damage. They are not immune to untargeted aoe. They won't take damage, but they can be affected, even destroyed.
When the minion summoned takes enough direct damage from its battlecry to kill it, it is present on the board for a moment as a 0-Health or negative-Health minion before dying, long enough to trigger summon effects. I've seen this with minions like Injured Blademaster so I know it works differently.
Yeah, death from zero health is resolved on the board and not as part of the battlecry (which resolved with the result of damaging the minion).
Rager resolves with the result of the minion being dead and then resolving the reborn as the result of that. So the Rager only enters the board as the result of reborn, the first half is removed during the battlecry - similar to playing a minion into Objection not entering the board.
Yeah, death from zero health is resolved on the board and not as part of the battlecry (which resolved with the result of damaging the minion).
Rager resolves with the result of the minion being dead and then resolving the reborn as the result of that. So the Rager only enters the board as the result of reborn, the first half is removed during the battlecry - similar to playing a minion into Objection not entering the board.
This is just so daft though. The minion must have been on the board or there's nowhere for it to be reborn to. If you play a minion into Objection with reborn it doesnt get reborn. Only minions on board get reborn.
I'm not saying the logic of your argument is completely flawed - this must be something close to the "behind the scenes" working in the code to make it occur the way it does. However, this is also exactly why it's stupid and promted the OP to crete his post in the first place!
It's also why I said in my post that I don't want an explanation as to why it works the way it does. It's always possible to come up with a "post effect" explanation that makes sense based on what you know happened. What we should demand is that a "pre-effect" prediction will be correct. The cards should work the way they say, not some half-backed alternative because Blizz thought the wording was too long.
p.s. this all assumes that the general rules of the game are always being followed
The minions are just immune: they can't be targeted and can't take damage. They are not immune to untargeted aoe. They won't take damage, but they can be affected, even destroyed.
Agree - this one actually behaves the way I would expect it to. It's sad, but that's the way it is.
For me the immune minions being hit by damage effects when they can't take damage is one that I didn't expect, I feel like that shouldn't happen.
Lots of (most??) other random target effects have a hidden caveat that only valid targets will be affected targeted.
Freeze a random minion will discount minions that are already frozen, damage split randomly will only hit a minion hard enough to do lethal damage and will discount it from then on, give a minion (random keywords) will only trigger for each keyword once, give a random minion divine shield ignores minions that have divine shield, etc.
The card effects are a little more generous than a strict reading of the card would suggest because they prioritize valid targets of outright ignore invalid targets.
I think it'd be more intuitive if immune was the same.
This is just so daft though. The minion must have been on the board or there's nowhere for it to be reborn to. If you play a minion into Objection with reborn it doesnt get reborn. Only minions on board get reborn.
I'm not saying the logic of your argument is completely flawed - this must be something close to the "behind the scenes" working in the code to make it occur the way it does. However, this is also exactly why it's stupid and promted the OP to crete his post in the first place!
It's also why I said in my post that I don't want an explanation as to why it works the way it does. It's always possible to come up with a "post effect" explanation that makes sense based on what you know happened. What we should demand is that a "pre-effect" prediction will be correct. The cards should work the way they say, not some half-backed alternative because Blizz thought the wording was too long.
p.s. this all assumes that the general rules of the game are always being followed
No, reborn is triggered by the minion dying, which normally is a subcategory of being destroyed while on board. Like if you Flik Skyshiv a Rager with reborn on board, it gets reborn but a different copy in your hand or deck doesn’t. The Rager triggers this “dying” as a battlecry and is subsequently reborn.
While I agree that having the cards work as it’s in their text would be great, we wouldn’t have knowledge about many things without observing them ingame. That knowledge then allows us to draw conclusions about new cards.
No, reborn is triggered by the minion dying, which normally is a subcategory of being destroyed while on board. Like if you Flik Skyshiv a Rager with reborn on board, it gets reborn but a different copy in your hand or deck doesn’t. The Rager triggers this “dying” as a battlecry and is subsequently reborn.
Doesnt this just agree with what I was saying? That the minion with reborn must have been summoned on board in order for reborn to occur? (If it wasn't summoned it couldn't be on board for reborn to trigger). Hence it should count towards Jungle Giants (twice) just as the OP said?
No, reborn is triggered by the minion dying, which normally is a subcategory of being destroyed while on board. Like if you Flik Skyshiv a Rager with reborn on board, it gets reborn but a different copy in your hand or deck doesn’t. The Rager triggers this “dying” as a battlecry and is subsequently reborn.
Doesnt this just agree with what I was saying? That the minion with reborn must have been summoned on board in order for reborn to occur? (If it wasn't summoned it couldn't be on board for reborn to trigger). Hence it should count towards Jungle Giants (twice) just as the OP said?
No, because reborn is a trigger effect that doesn’t require the minion being on the board. “Reborn” just requires the minion to enter and resolve the “dying” state.
The Rager enters this state as part of its battlecry, at which point it hasn’t been on the board, yet and won’t be (entering the board happens after the battlecry resolves and the minion is still alive).
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Firstly, Scourge Rager doesn't proc Jungle Giants twice when you play it from hand. Just because the shitty battlecry triggers before the minion enters play... I understand that's how battlecries are supposed to work but that's just silly, the first Rager doesn't even exist it's just gone. The card text should really be tweaked to account for this and acknowledge the Rager that is played on the board, and this isn't just for me. I have no doubt that this interaction will blue-ball a lot of players trying similar strategies in different decks.
Next, Anub'arak. What good is this "legendary"? It's awful, it's just a dead card. I've had him since Grand Tournament because he's cool, I want to make a deck that can take advantage of his effect but it's impossible. Cheating him out is pointless because he only has 4 health and I have to pay full price to play him again. Now, all of this wouldn't be a problem if only his deathrattle worked properly with Counterfeit Blade. This weapon is the only hope Anub'arak has of being played effectively, and it's broken because Anub'arak's deathrattle doesn't function as described in the card text. The deathrattle doesn't "Return this to your hand...", it adds a 9-mana Anub'arak to your hand. So no infinite Counterfeit Blade summoning 4/4 Nerubians (which isn't even that strong nowadays), just a new 9-mana Anub'arak.
Unfortunately, fringe cases like this don't get a lot of attention, for obvious reasons. But it'd be nice if my Anub'arak didn't have to be disenchanted. Also, shouldn't Lost Soul be an Undead?
Yes
Here's question you probably can't answer. If the battlecry read "Deal 4 damage to this minion" would it still be the same outcome with Jungle Giants? The minion has to exist on board to take damage, therefor it must have been summoned.
Anyway, while we're at it Rattlegore also suffers from the Anub'arak effect of not doing what it says on the card. If you buff/de-buff him - doesn't matter, he comes back with -1/-1 from what the previous deathrattle thinks he should be. If you steal/copy the deathrattle and put in on another minion - you're still getting Rattlegore back, not the other minion.
Stuff like this is inexcusable in a card game (imo), where the interactions matter and decide what you do in a game. For the most part you shouldn't have to try something once to see what happens.
As for an interaction which grinds my gears - stealing/copying a Souleater's Scythe soul card does not let you discover anything at all, even though the minions are "already inside the soul cards". Lost a game because of that one...
p.s. I'm not asking people to use mental gymnastics to try and explain why it works the way it does - the simple fact is that it doesn't do what it says it should do.
When the minion summoned takes enough direct damage from its battlecry to kill it, it is present on the board for a moment as a 0-Health or negative-Health minion before dying, long enough to trigger summon effects. I've seen this with minions like Injured Blademaster so I know it works differently.
It happens to me since i started to play HS, that some wording on cards just dont make sense and i lose important games because of it...it can be really frustrating, that you sometimes cant rely on logic, but just need to know what happens. Maybe also my logic is sometimes wrong :)
So just lately i lost a game due to this:
Warlock opponent played The Jailer, all minions are immune and cant be attacked nor targeted...however i had Sire Denathrius in my hand, which i stole from his hand. He had about 10 hp and just enough, so i can finish him off with Sire Denathrius...well it turns out stupid ass Sire Denathrius nuked all the shit into the immune, untouchable, not targetable minions. Well played...how does this make sense?
The most irritating thing about Scourge Rager is that it doesn't trigger the "Play 10 Reborn Minions" quest we currently have as part of the event (because of what you say) ...
There aren't many reborn minions in standard (only 4 ... Invincible, Blightblood Berserker, Malignant Horror, and Thassarian ... the reset are all summon) so played one wild game to complete it ... irritating for people who don't have access to those wild cards ... yes, BGs will probably do it, but I don't play that mode (if it is not part of a daily).
The minions are just immune: they can't be targeted and can't take damage. They are not immune to untargeted aoe. They won't take damage, but they can be affected, even destroyed.
Yeah, death from zero health is resolved on the board and not as part of the battlecry (which resolved with the result of damaging the minion).
Rager resolves with the result of the minion being dead and then resolving the reborn as the result of that. So the Rager only enters the board as the result of reborn, the first half is removed during the battlecry - similar to playing a minion into Objection not entering the board.
This is just so daft though. The minion must have been on the board or there's nowhere for it to be reborn to. If you play a minion into Objection with reborn it doesnt get reborn. Only minions on board get reborn.
I'm not saying the logic of your argument is completely flawed - this must be something close to the "behind the scenes" working in the code to make it occur the way it does. However, this is also exactly why it's stupid and promted the OP to crete his post in the first place!
It's also why I said in my post that I don't want an explanation as to why it works the way it does. It's always possible to come up with a "post effect" explanation that makes sense based on what you know happened. What we should demand is that a "pre-effect" prediction will be correct. The cards should work the way they say, not some half-backed alternative because Blizz thought the wording was too long.
p.s. this all assumes that the general rules of the game are always being followed
The minions are just immune: they can't be targeted and can't take damage. They are not immune to untargeted aoe. They won't take damage, but they can be affected, even destroyed.
Agree - this one actually behaves the way I would expect it to. It's sad, but that's the way it is.
For me the immune minions being hit by damage effects when they can't take damage is one that I didn't expect, I feel like that shouldn't happen.
Lots of (most??) other random target effects have a hidden caveat that only valid targets will be
affectedtargeted.Freeze a random minion will discount minions that are already frozen, damage split randomly will only hit a minion hard enough to do lethal damage and will discount it from then on, give a minion (random keywords) will only trigger for each keyword once, give a random minion divine shield ignores minions that have divine shield, etc.
The card effects are a little more generous than a strict reading of the card would suggest because they prioritize valid targets of outright ignore invalid targets.
I think it'd be more intuitive if immune was the same.
No, reborn is triggered by the minion dying, which normally is a subcategory of being destroyed while on board. Like if you Flik Skyshiv a Rager with reborn on board, it gets reborn but a different copy in your hand or deck doesn’t. The Rager triggers this “dying” as a battlecry and is subsequently reborn.
While I agree that having the cards work as it’s in their text would be great, we wouldn’t have knowledge about many things without observing them ingame. That knowledge then allows us to draw conclusions about new cards.
Doesnt this just agree with what I was saying? That the minion with reborn must have been summoned on board in order for reborn to occur? (If it wasn't summoned it couldn't be on board for reborn to trigger). Hence it should count towards Jungle Giants (twice) just as the OP said?
No, because reborn is a trigger effect that doesn’t require the minion being on the board. “Reborn” just requires the minion to enter and resolve the “dying” state.
The Rager enters this state as part of its battlecry, at which point it hasn’t been on the board, yet and won’t be (entering the board happens after the battlecry resolves and the minion is still alive).