Morning all! You may have noticed this morning that it appears that once again Theotar has been "updated". I call this a "nerf-buff", simply because it has had it's cost raised to 6 mana (the nerf) and it's stats raised from a 3/3 to a 4/4 (the buff).
I am interested to hear your thoughts on this, whether you think it will make a great deal of difference, or if it was too much, or too little.
For me personally, the whole problem with the card has been that you can "discover" a card in your opponent's hand to take, which gives you a choice of 3 - in a player's hand, that can be massive. When you consider a card like Mutanous the Devourer, it's "weakness" in it's power is that the card it eats is random, and could have no effect if the opponent has no minions. With Theotar, barring if the opponent has no cards in hand, it will always hit something and will likely be something good because you can choose the target.
I personally think that the card would have been so much better balanced if the cards it affected were randomised for both yours and the opponent's hand. Sure, it makes the effect a lot weaker, but that is the intention of the nerf. It's a clearly super-powerful card, even with the latest changes - which, to me, make almost no difference to it.
I do wonder how many times they will make inconsequential changes like these to the card and then wonder why it is still a problem.
But maybe I am wrong? Perhaps this change is suitably big enough? What do you think?
A small nerf would be to make the effect a unique type instead of battlecry, so it would no longer work with cards like Brann Bronzebeard and Brilliant Macaw
I pro disruption though I admit it ain't fun when you loose a win condition, but then again it forces you to have several ways to win.
I think it will be played as long as Denathrius exists in his current format, as he's the only semi reliable card to counter him. This game ending, fun-destroying card has no real condition other than playing the game and will continue to be able to be used in pretty much every deck type until he rotates out.
Seeing Denathrius used as the win-con in pretty much all the Death Knight showcase matches highlights how much of a problem card he is. We now also have Denathrius v2 to contend with Astalor Bloodsworn, who obviously also combo's with Brann for extra fun (with discount/druid), so this is another valid target for Theotar.
A small nerf would be to make the effect a unique type instead of battlecry, so it would no longer work with cards like Brann Bronzebeard and Brilliant Macaw
I pro disruption though I admit it ain't fun when you loose a win condition, but then again it forces you to have several ways to win.
I am also pro-disruption as I like the mechanic. It's the "Discover" part of Theotar that I have the most issue with, myself.
I think you're only going to see it stop being mandatory at like... 8 mana. That's how powerful I feel the effect is at just breaking control matchups. I don't feel like denathrius is the reason why you're forced to play the card, even though it's grossly overpowered and needs changing, it's that control decks have so many core cards vital to their gameplan that shuts the deck down if stolen. Any hero card, most legendaries are just backbreaking to lose.
I also find it frustrating how combo decks were always what kept control decks in check, and now control decks have so many ways to make combo decks irrelevant - more than aggro face rushing it down, even. Why aren't control decks allowed to have this weakness anymore?
I'm cool with disruption but for the love of god stop being so discard heavy about it, it's not fun or interesting to have your win conditions RNG burnt out of your hand. Cards like Mutanus the Devourer, Dirty Rat, Gnomeferatu, Unseen Saboteur the new Patchwerk and 5 mana warrior spell discarder are prime examples of "maybe I just randomly win if I play this". Theotar is the one that sits on top because his disruption is even more aggressive giving the player a choice of 3 cards so it can be targeted more. By all means print disruption cards but make those disruptors require some actual foresight and brains to play, with good examples like Loatheb, Coilfang Constrictor, Forensic Duster, Nerubian Unraveler, Nerub'ar Weblord just to give some examples.
The whole theotar situation feels like Mindrender Illucia all over again where it was changed 4 times because of how much it warped the game, blizzard are just being stubborn about it (and even noted that it might get changed further).
I played a bit with/against new 6-mana Theotar - mana cost increase did absolutely nothing :-)
I agree that in his current form with discovery effect it's just too strong. They may increase mana cost even further, but he'll still be played. It's just to good to be able to shut down any control or combo deck, whether it's minion- or spell-based.
I dont know what people want this card to be honestly but i dont belive he would be bad never effect unless he cost 9, which is the turn before Sir Denathrius can be played so your oponent will dump his hand into the board and you will lose if you just play Theotar to take the Denathrius.
What keeps the card strong is how the decks that are really hurt by him really love to hold "game swimp" cards in their hands for the late game. And how little those decks can do if that card is taken away. Theotar for 6 is 100% a worse card in general against a lot of decks that wants to do stuff at turn 1 to 6 because unless you ramp u cant take those cards going second. Going first you can but there is nothing they can do to balance the going first vs going second stuff.
That said, control decks on standard keep a low winrate compare to combo and aggro. The only 2 control decks doing consistenly fine are Paladin and Shaman. One of them because it can abuse Theotar effect multiple times and the other runs 3 winconditions in the form of Sire, Jailer and Cariel. Ladder still is mostly mage, demon hunter, hunter and druid. In Wild the problem is that every X number of sets we need a tool to disrupt hand and all of them end up in Wild but that could be solve by banning 1 or 2 of the hard disruption.
We need cards like Theothar tho. Slowing a combo does nothing for control decks: cards that increase the cost of other cards to prevent an OTK play just buy u half of a turn because u wont have enough mana to end the game in that moment and most combos in Hearthstone are Winconditions, you win the very moment u make the combo. Regardless when you made the combo. There is not any argument against that, combos become winconditions so the only answer for control decks to keep being played was introduce 1 hand disruption card every X number of sets so you always have a way to win games that are decide by 1 card. Or the 1 play.
I dont know what people want this card to be honestly but i dont belive he would be bad never effect unless he cost 9,
His mana cost was never the problem. Nobody complained about him because they thought he was too cheap to play. It's the Discover element of his power that is what makes him strong and I am surprised after repeated nerfs that they still havent fixed this.
Denathrius can still be effected by plenty of other disruption mechanics, and even more options in a few days time when DK's are released. So it's not like Theotar is really "needed" in its current farm.
I've said it many times before, this is Mindrender Illucia all over again. When Blizz prints a REALLY good disruption card, people play it. You can look throughout history to see good tech/disruption cards. Rustrot Viper is currently being played since weapons are in the meta, it has premium stats at a low cost, and can be traded away if you don't need it. Dirty Rat has always seen play in wild since it's really good disruption for removing a minion you opponent is saving.
Meanwhile, look at crap like Tight-Lipped Witness. Less classes use secrets then weapons, There's no meta decks running secrets atm (and there won't be in MotLK), and it has goofy stats. Most of all, there have been better anti-secret cards in the past that have destroyed all enemy secrets instead of shutting them down.
The problem with theotar is that it is TOO good. Steal a good card from your opponent, give them one they can't use. If they wanted it balanced, what they should've done is use the damn counter-discover effect they added this expansion to the card. Instead of swapping cards, the person playing theotar discovers a card in their opponent's hand and they get a copy of it. Then when the opponent's turn rolls around they have to choose which card the person choose. If they choose right, they keep the original card, if not, the original gets removed from play. That would've added some counterplay to it and some mind game schnanigans.
Here’s the thing about Theotar, he’s bad. He was bad at 5 mana. He is bad at 6 mana. It’s a turn 6 4/4 with no immediate impact. I see everyone saying he steals denathrius and so he is mandatory, but that is pretty much for ramp Druid and maybe phylactery warlock. The best decks and most popular decks don’t care about Theotar at all. Shaman being able to abuse it with schooling is a different story because you are almost guaranteed a terrible trade, so it makes Theotar a bit better. If you are playing Theotar, cut him and win more games. Theotar is so niche that if you need him to beat ramp Druid, you are probably going to lose to one of the other wincons in that deck.
A buff for Big Priest in Wild. I include Theotar in my decks for the disruption effect, but occasionally my plan B is to use him to grab something I might actually use in an emergency (like a board clear). This nerf pushes Theotar away from this secondary strategy and more towards pure disruption because of the new cost.
I've been theorycrafting a bunch in preparation for launch. I've made decks for every class except Hunter, and Theotar is only in 2 of the decks. Yes, he's good disruption, but if your deck has a good game plan of it's own, you just focus on that and win more games. At 4 he was too strong because you don't sacrifice that much, at 6 now, he should be fine.
i think they could have gone with : « Battlecry: Discover a card to discard from your opponent’s hand. They discover one of yours to discard at the beginning of their next turn. »
It would : fit in one of the mechanics of its set, keep its strenghth, but feel a bit less frustrating.
But honestly I don’t really the game in this current state so I don’t really care.
You play against Rogue, Druid, Shaman - you get the same game - Theotar, Denathrius, Devourer, Sylvanas, Mutanus, Brann. Neutral cards are too powerful.
I don't believe Blizzard really wants this to change. This nerf was absolutely irrelevant.
Meanwhile, look at crap like Tight-Lipped Witness. Less classes use secrets then weapons, There's no meta decks running secrets atm (and there won't be in MotLK), and it has goofy stats.
I mean the only better statline would be a 1/6 and that is str8 insult to paladin
The best way to balance Theotar is to make it so that both discovered cards get discarded. This way it keeps the disruption aspect of the card while avoiding the swing it creates when you steal a card like Denathrius.
I dont know what people want this card to be honestly but i dont belive he would be bad never effect unless he cost 9,
His mana cost was never the problem. Nobody complained about him because they thought he was too cheap to play. It's the Discover element of his power that is what makes him strong and I am surprised after repeated nerfs that they still havent fixed this.
Denathrius can still be effected by plenty of other disruption mechanics, and even more options in a few days time when DK's are released. So it's not like Theotar is really "needed" in its current farm.
What other Disruption mechanic in standard prevents you from losing to 30 damage to face - For the resto of the game - ?
(The Answer is hit the jack-pot with mutanus) There is not a great card to call units from your oponents hand in standard right now. If there was one people wont be force to run Theothar and Mutanus both in literally every late game deck.
Morning all!
You may have noticed this morning that it appears that once again Theotar has been "updated".
I call this a "nerf-buff", simply because it has had it's cost raised to 6 mana (the nerf) and it's stats raised from a 3/3 to a 4/4 (the buff).
I am interested to hear your thoughts on this, whether you think it will make a great deal of difference, or if it was too much, or too little.
For me personally, the whole problem with the card has been that you can "discover" a card in your opponent's hand to take, which gives you a choice of 3 - in a player's hand, that can be massive. When you consider a card like Mutanous the Devourer, it's "weakness" in it's power is that the card it eats is random, and could have no effect if the opponent has no minions.
With Theotar, barring if the opponent has no cards in hand, it will always hit something and will likely be something good because you can choose the target.
I personally think that the card would have been so much better balanced if the cards it affected were randomised for both yours and the opponent's hand. Sure, it makes the effect a lot weaker, but that is the intention of the nerf. It's a clearly super-powerful card, even with the latest changes - which, to me, make almost no difference to it.
I do wonder how many times they will make inconsequential changes like these to the card and then wonder why it is still a problem.
But maybe I am wrong? Perhaps this change is suitably big enough? What do you think?
A small nerf would be to make the effect a unique type instead of battlecry, so it would no longer work with cards like Brann Bronzebeard and Brilliant Macaw
I pro disruption though I admit it ain't fun when you loose a win condition, but then again it forces you to have several ways to win.
I think it will be played as long as Denathrius exists in his current format, as he's the only semi reliable card to counter him. This game ending, fun-destroying card has no real condition other than playing the game and will continue to be able to be used in pretty much every deck type until he rotates out.
Seeing Denathrius used as the win-con in pretty much all the Death Knight showcase matches highlights how much of a problem card he is. We now also have Denathrius v2 to contend with Astalor Bloodsworn, who obviously also combo's with Brann for extra fun (with discount/druid), so this is another valid target for Theotar.
I am also pro-disruption as I like the mechanic. It's the "Discover" part of Theotar that I have the most issue with, myself.
I think you're only going to see it stop being mandatory at like... 8 mana. That's how powerful I feel the effect is at just breaking control matchups. I don't feel like denathrius is the reason why you're forced to play the card, even though it's grossly overpowered and needs changing, it's that control decks have so many core cards vital to their gameplan that shuts the deck down if stolen. Any hero card, most legendaries are just backbreaking to lose.
I also find it frustrating how combo decks were always what kept control decks in check, and now control decks have so many ways to make combo decks irrelevant - more than aggro face rushing it down, even. Why aren't control decks allowed to have this weakness anymore?
I'm cool with disruption but for the love of god stop being so discard heavy about it, it's not fun or interesting to have your win conditions RNG burnt out of your hand. Cards like Mutanus the Devourer, Dirty Rat, Gnomeferatu, Unseen Saboteur the new Patchwerk and 5 mana warrior spell discarder are prime examples of "maybe I just randomly win if I play this". Theotar is the one that sits on top because his disruption is even more aggressive giving the player a choice of 3 cards so it can be targeted more. By all means print disruption cards but make those disruptors require some actual foresight and brains to play, with good examples like Loatheb, Coilfang Constrictor, Forensic Duster, Nerubian Unraveler, Nerub'ar Weblord just to give some examples.
The whole theotar situation feels like Mindrender Illucia all over again where it was changed 4 times because of how much it warped the game, blizzard are just being stubborn about it (and even noted that it might get changed further).
I played a bit with/against new 6-mana Theotar - mana cost increase did absolutely nothing :-)
I agree that in his current form with discovery effect it's just too strong. They may increase mana cost even further, but he'll still be played. It's just to good to be able to shut down any control or combo deck, whether it's minion- or spell-based.
I dont know what people want this card to be honestly but i dont belive he would be bad never effect unless he cost 9, which is the turn before Sir Denathrius can be played so your oponent will dump his hand into the board and you will lose if you just play Theotar to take the Denathrius.
What keeps the card strong is how the decks that are really hurt by him really love to hold "game swimp" cards in their hands for the late game. And how little those decks can do if that card is taken away. Theotar for 6 is 100% a worse card in general against a lot of decks that wants to do stuff at turn 1 to 6 because unless you ramp u cant take those cards going second. Going first you can but there is nothing they can do to balance the going first vs going second stuff.
That said, control decks on standard keep a low winrate compare to combo and aggro. The only 2 control decks doing consistenly fine are Paladin and Shaman. One of them because it can abuse Theotar effect multiple times and the other runs 3 winconditions in the form of Sire, Jailer and Cariel. Ladder still is mostly mage, demon hunter, hunter and druid. In Wild the problem is that every X number of sets we need a tool to disrupt hand and all of them end up in Wild but that could be solve by banning 1 or 2 of the hard disruption.
We need cards like Theothar tho. Slowing a combo does nothing for control decks: cards that increase the cost of other cards to prevent an OTK play just buy u half of a turn because u wont have enough mana to end the game in that moment and most combos in Hearthstone are Winconditions, you win the very moment u make the combo. Regardless when you made the combo. There is not any argument against that, combos become winconditions so the only answer for control decks to keep being played was introduce 1 hand disruption card every X number of sets so you always have a way to win games that are decide by 1 card. Or the 1 play.
His mana cost was never the problem. Nobody complained about him because they thought he was too cheap to play. It's the Discover element of his power that is what makes him strong and I am surprised after repeated nerfs that they still havent fixed this.
Denathrius can still be effected by plenty of other disruption mechanics, and even more options in a few days time when DK's are released. So it's not like Theotar is really "needed" in its current farm.
I've said it many times before, this is Mindrender Illucia all over again. When Blizz prints a REALLY good disruption card, people play it. You can look throughout history to see good tech/disruption cards. Rustrot Viper is currently being played since weapons are in the meta, it has premium stats at a low cost, and can be traded away if you don't need it. Dirty Rat has always seen play in wild since it's really good disruption for removing a minion you opponent is saving.
Meanwhile, look at crap like Tight-Lipped Witness. Less classes use secrets then weapons, There's no meta decks running secrets atm (and there won't be in MotLK), and it has goofy stats. Most of all, there have been better anti-secret cards in the past that have destroyed all enemy secrets instead of shutting them down.
The problem with theotar is that it is TOO good. Steal a good card from your opponent, give them one they can't use. If they wanted it balanced, what they should've done is use the damn counter-discover effect they added this expansion to the card. Instead of swapping cards, the person playing theotar discovers a card in their opponent's hand and they get a copy of it. Then when the opponent's turn rolls around they have to choose which card the person choose. If they choose right, they keep the original card, if not, the original gets removed from play. That would've added some counterplay to it and some mind game schnanigans.
Here’s the thing about Theotar, he’s bad. He was bad at 5 mana. He is bad at 6 mana. It’s a turn 6 4/4 with no immediate impact. I see everyone saying he steals denathrius and so he is mandatory, but that is pretty much for ramp Druid and maybe phylactery warlock. The best decks and most popular decks don’t care about Theotar at all. Shaman being able to abuse it with schooling is a different story because you are almost guaranteed a terrible trade, so it makes Theotar a bit better. If you are playing Theotar, cut him and win more games. Theotar is so niche that if you need him to beat ramp Druid, you are probably going to lose to one of the other wincons in that deck.
Once DK starts going, you’ll be wishing Theotar was back at 4 mana. Careful what you wish for, Sire DK is coming.
I play even decks, It was a buff for me
A buff for Big Priest in Wild. I include Theotar in my decks for the disruption effect, but occasionally my plan B is to use him to grab something I might actually use in an emergency (like a board clear). This nerf pushes Theotar away from this secondary strategy and more towards pure disruption because of the new cost.
I've been theorycrafting a bunch in preparation for launch. I've made decks for every class except Hunter, and Theotar is only in 2 of the decks. Yes, he's good disruption, but if your deck has a good game plan of it's own, you just focus on that and win more games. At 4 he was too strong because you don't sacrifice that much, at 6 now, he should be fine.
I'm still gonna run it he still seems so much better than any other disruption cards
i think they could have gone with : « Battlecry: Discover a card to discard from your opponent’s hand. They discover one of yours to discard at the beginning of their next turn. »
It would : fit in one of the mechanics of its set, keep its strenghth, but feel a bit less frustrating.
But honestly I don’t really the game in this current state so I don’t really care.
You play against Rogue, Druid, Shaman - you get the same game - Theotar, Denathrius, Devourer, Sylvanas, Mutanus, Brann. Neutral cards are too powerful.
I don't believe Blizzard really wants this to change. This nerf was absolutely irrelevant.
I mean the only better statline would be a 1/6 and that is str8 insult to paladin
DJ
The best way to balance Theotar is to make it so that both discovered cards get discarded. This way it keeps the disruption aspect of the card while avoiding the swing it creates when you steal a card like Denathrius.
What other Disruption mechanic in standard prevents you from losing to 30 damage to face - For the resto of the game - ?
(The Answer is hit the jack-pot with mutanus) There is not a great card to call units from your oponents hand in standard right now. If there was one people wont be force to run Theothar and Mutanus both in literally every late game deck.