They have never reworked any of the classes and they will not rework Death Knight either. This system is not that difficult to mantain, DK might just become a class with builds having a few more neutrals than average and that's all.
Hmm they did try to rework Priest (by replacing its entire Core Set and strength/weakness) and Shaman (replacing 1 of the totems for hero power)
Well, they made changes. But you can hardly say they reworked Shaman by just changing 1 totem. Priest has been so reworked that their best deck (Bless Priest) is just another version of their oldest archetype - Inner Fire Priest and Boar Priest is full of so very reworked cards like Northshire Cleric, Wild Pyromancer and Naaru's Gift which is so unlike Circle of Healing. Shard of Naaru is nothing like Mass Dispel. And Identity Theft is so unlike Thoughtsteal combined with Mind Vision. So yeah, although changes were made in the end there was no real reworking, not really.
Yep, I predicted this during the rune system reveal. They'll be balancing essentially 4-6 classes in DK because of all the combos, so eventually they'll just give up on it. You can look at the whole enrage warrior archetype this cycle for proof of that.
The Rune system is fantastic! ... for a seasoned player. (And the longevity of the game). I wish they would implement it to all the classes, and thereby essentially make deck creation much more interesting. One major problem to this ever happening though (and a nitpicky one).
Minor problem: The fact that it is called "the rune system" has too heavy connotations to DKs! It would have to get rename to specialization, talents or something like that. Otherwise, everything works essentially the same should it have been implemented.
Major problem: Adding the "rune system" would increase the barrier of entry to the game for new players! And that is a huge risk factor! Most whom play today had an "easy" start when playing. No overly complex system upon system upon system. Imagine, back when you were a small sprout, just wanting to test out the game a friend of yours was playing. The setup was easy, the tutorial was simple. The deck creation very limited in its scope. It is why game-changing cards like Hero cards, quests or even simply Prince Renathal are legendary.
That being said. I really hope they add the talents, ("rune system"), to all classes (and future ones), and perhaps a resource for every class, like corpses for DKs. It truly opens up the design space!
Personally I disagree with OP. Runes is a sweet system that allows them to print more powerful cards without having to worry about them being put into decks together. It also lets people experiment more with deckbuilding. It's all upside.
I could see why you'd think there's a problem; not being able to support each Rune equally in each expansion. But I don't think that's an issue because I don't think they intend to do that. Some expansions will make more sense to focus on one or two of them. Odds are we'll get like, 2 of each Rune minimum per expansion, with 2 Runes maybe getting a 3rd and getting one or two Runeless cards.
I assume they're smart enough to think 10 expansions ahead - willing to put in the work for Demon Hunter and Death Knights, knowing the mechanics are there 'forever' and the amount of effort needed to make cards.
the wont remove the system: They will give it less protagonist in future expansions. The system is a "good excuse" to make exciting broken cards that they wont be able to print unless they could force us to play those cards in a particular deck. Thats why the system is a great idea for they to keep.
But yeah we obviusly would see some "no rune" legos in the future and "no rune" focus package too. Thats obvius because design space wont allow to focus on one rune every expansion. But...thats not a concern on my list because most broken DK cards will have runes attached to them so its a win-win kindof situation.
I do think eventually it's going to really hinder the class' progression over new expansions just because it almost divides DK into three classes. Let's say an expansion gives each class 10 cards, DK would only get three per rune type and this isn't even allowing space for printing many neutrals. Unless DK is allowed to have like twice the cards as other classes going forward it's VERY hard to push all-new archetypes for the class.
I do feel like it's a bit cheesy to put these rune restrictions on the class yet discover cards disregard it, though. A triple blood DK discovering Frostwyrm's Fury or a triple unholy DK generating the powerful triple blood cards that allow it to suddenly switch into a control deck. Given Nerubian Vizier is going to be in every DK deck, this is gonna happen a lot.
The hilarious thing about this thread is that they've been designing Hearthstone this way for years already. In every expansion, we get about one-and-a-half subsets of cards in each class that are strongly synergistic within the subset and do not work well at all with the other subsets available to the class. You can mix or match to some degree, but the most extreme parts of each subset tend to work against each other. There have been some exceptions (particularly in Mage), and that is when nerfs have been required.
The only difference in DK is that those soft restrictions have been made firm. Believe it or not, this actually makes it easier to design new cards because you no longer have to worry about those extreme interactions. Just give the scariest cards the three-rune treatment, and things are far less likely to get out of hand in unexpected ways. Small balance changes will always be needed, but you're probably not going to see a monster like Lunacy Mage come out of nowhere and take over the meta.
For this reason, I think it would be hugely beneficial to propagate the specialization system to the rest of the classes.
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"Why, you never expected justice from a company, did you? They have neither a soul to lose nor a body to kick." -- Lady Saba Holland
With spell schools and runes for dk, they moved away from the "easy to learn" philosophy. which is not necessarily bad. Maybe HS needs this to feel fresh again. I don't see why runes won't stay. The only problem is that they will be designing 3 classes in one for dk, if they see that as being a problem they will scrap it, but it's too early to say
I think the system is great, it's something that actually resembles a serious card game for once.
People make all sorts of assumtions and talk about other classes having this ect. but its just a DK buff in wow XD In other words this = DK in wow and other classes have 0 to do with it.
I think the system is great, it's something that actually resembles a serious card game for once.
People make all sorts of assumtions and talk about other classes having this ect. but its just a DK buff in wow XD In other words this = DK in wow and other classes have 0 to do with it.
No one is arguing that other classes should get death knight runes, or confused as to why they don't have them.
If dividing class cards into 3 categories requiring variable levels of investment turns out to be a good move they could introduce the same system for other classes. I never played WoW but even I know that classes have specializations. 3 each I think?
So instead of having Triple Blood Death Knight you could have Triple Retribution Paladin, Affliction/Affliction/Demonology Warlock or whatever.
I'd suggest probably calling them "Specializations" but they'd be runes, just given a different name. Or vice versa.
The terminology already exists in WoW, which is what Hearthstone's based on, so it would be lore friendly. And the mechanical side of how it would work is in place already, and will be live in an hour or so.
Not that the lore thing is important. I played a game earlier where Deathwing got killed by a seagull.
"This would never happen in WoW" has never been a reason for things not to work in Hearthstone.
Anyway, that's what people are discussing.
What do you think? Should they roll that out for other classes?
I don't think they can roll it out for other classes because of the earlier mentiont problem that a class only gets 10 new cards and you want to provide to 3 different playstyles. If they find away around that i'm all for it and just call it talent builds.
The main problem with that though is that Paladin for example is easy DPS - Tank - Holy altough holy kinda overlaps with Tank control. Rogue for example has 3 dps builds so they would never get a real control build unless they work around that wich i'm sure they can with spells ect. I gues rogue in this case controls the opponent in pvp wow aswell.
I for one don't agree that Paladin always has to be the small dude class even though it has nothing to do with its wow counterpart and could easily be a strong control deck for example.
This rune system (and 3 different play styles) really represents the Death Knight from wow and it could easily be implemented for other classes. But again i'm curious too see how they are going to support it in future expansions. People also claim its easier to balance if thats true i'm all for it again. It could work but changes would need to be made how expansions are made.
The main problem with that though is that Paladin for example is easy DPS - Tank - Holy altough holy kinda overlaps with Tank control. Rogue for example has 3 dps builds so they would never get a real control build unless they work around that wich i'm sure they can with spells ect. I gues rogue in this case controls the opponent in pvp wow aswell.
Every class has already had many different archetypes in the past. That's all this is. All the developers have to do is assign an archetype to each specialization ("rune") and go from there. They can even change up which archetypes are represented by the specializations with each rotation.
Also, the various levels of dedication to a spec open up plenty of hybrid possibilities, so it's not completely paint-by-numbers.
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"Why, you never expected justice from a company, did you? They have neither a soul to lose nor a body to kick." -- Lady Saba Holland
I think they could definitely roll out somthing similar to the other classes if it proved succesful, and in principle it does give them a separate way to balance cards/combinations without altering mana cost and effects.
Would they do it though? I'm not sure they would as it seems like it would be a lot of work to balance card combo's which may not need balanced. It also reduces the potential for deck variability (which is bad), but in practice there isn't much variability anyway due to net decks.
I changed my mind. They need to rework the class. It's so hard to lose against DK it's not even funny.
Chill out, it's literally day one, people still haven't figured out how to counter the class.
I think he was implying that DK wasn't very good / doesn't win. I'm not sure why though (I've only lost so far against another Deathknight). I imagine there's a lot of trial and error versions going around at the moment.
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Hmm they did try to rework Priest (by replacing its entire Core Set and strength/weakness) and Shaman (replacing 1 of the totems for hero power)
Well, they made changes. But you can hardly say they reworked Shaman by just changing 1 totem. Priest has been so reworked that their best deck (Bless Priest) is just another version of their oldest archetype - Inner Fire Priest and Boar Priest is full of so very reworked cards like Northshire Cleric, Wild Pyromancer and Naaru's Gift which is so unlike Circle of Healing. Shard of Naaru is nothing like Mass Dispel. And Identity Theft is so unlike Thoughtsteal combined with Mind Vision. So yeah, although changes were made in the end there was no real reworking, not really.
Yep, I predicted this during the rune system reveal. They'll be balancing essentially 4-6 classes in DK because of all the combos, so eventually they'll just give up on it. You can look at the whole enrage warrior archetype this cycle for proof of that.
This thread will not age well.
“Let your plans be dark and impenetrable as night, and when you move, fall like a thunderbolt.”
The Rune system is fantastic! ... for a seasoned player. (And the longevity of the game). I wish they would implement it to all the classes, and thereby essentially make deck creation much more interesting. One major problem to this ever happening though (and a nitpicky one).
Minor problem: The fact that it is called "the rune system" has too heavy connotations to DKs! It would have to get rename to specialization, talents or something like that. Otherwise, everything works essentially the same should it have been implemented.
Major problem: Adding the "rune system" would increase the barrier of entry to the game for new players! And that is a huge risk factor! Most whom play today had an "easy" start when playing. No overly complex system upon system upon system.
Imagine, back when you were a small sprout, just wanting to test out the game a friend of yours was playing. The setup was easy, the tutorial was simple. The deck creation very limited in its scope. It is why game-changing cards like Hero cards, quests or even simply Prince Renathal are legendary.
That being said. I really hope they add the talents, ("rune system"), to all classes (and future ones), and perhaps a resource for every class, like corpses for DKs. It truly opens up the design space!
Personally I disagree with OP. Runes is a sweet system that allows them to print more powerful cards without having to worry about them being put into decks together. It also lets people experiment more with deckbuilding. It's all upside.
I could see why you'd think there's a problem; not being able to support each Rune equally in each expansion. But I don't think that's an issue because I don't think they intend to do that. Some expansions will make more sense to focus on one or two of them. Odds are we'll get like, 2 of each Rune minimum per expansion, with 2 Runes maybe getting a 3rd and getting one or two Runeless cards.
please don't bully my son
I assume they're smart enough to think 10 expansions ahead - willing to put in the work for Demon Hunter and Death Knights, knowing the mechanics are there 'forever' and the amount of effort needed to make cards.
Assuming...
the wont remove the system: They will give it less protagonist in future expansions. The system is a "good excuse" to make exciting broken cards that they wont be able to print unless they could force us to play those cards in a particular deck. Thats why the system is a great idea for they to keep.
But yeah we obviusly would see some "no rune" legos in the future and "no rune" focus package too. Thats obvius because design space wont allow to focus on one rune every expansion. But...thats not a concern on my list because most broken DK cards will have runes attached to them so its a win-win kindof situation.
No please don't , that is unnecessary deckbuilding requirement for other classes with many cards-with-specific-mechanics-that-are-hard-to-replace.
I do think eventually it's going to really hinder the class' progression over new expansions just because it almost divides DK into three classes. Let's say an expansion gives each class 10 cards, DK would only get three per rune type and this isn't even allowing space for printing many neutrals. Unless DK is allowed to have like twice the cards as other classes going forward it's VERY hard to push all-new archetypes for the class.
I do feel like it's a bit cheesy to put these rune restrictions on the class yet discover cards disregard it, though. A triple blood DK discovering Frostwyrm's Fury or a triple unholy DK generating the powerful triple blood cards that allow it to suddenly switch into a control deck. Given Nerubian Vizier is going to be in every DK deck, this is gonna happen a lot.
The hilarious thing about this thread is that they've been designing Hearthstone this way for years already. In every expansion, we get about one-and-a-half subsets of cards in each class that are strongly synergistic within the subset and do not work well at all with the other subsets available to the class. You can mix or match to some degree, but the most extreme parts of each subset tend to work against each other. There have been some exceptions (particularly in Mage), and that is when nerfs have been required.
The only difference in DK is that those soft restrictions have been made firm. Believe it or not, this actually makes it easier to design new cards because you no longer have to worry about those extreme interactions. Just give the scariest cards the three-rune treatment, and things are far less likely to get out of hand in unexpected ways. Small balance changes will always be needed, but you're probably not going to see a monster like Lunacy Mage come out of nowhere and take over the meta.
For this reason, I think it would be hugely beneficial to propagate the specialization system to the rest of the classes.
"Why, you never expected justice from a company, did you? They have neither a soul to lose nor a body to kick." -- Lady Saba Holland
With spell schools and runes for dk, they moved away from the "easy to learn" philosophy. which is not necessarily bad. Maybe HS needs this to feel fresh again. I don't see why runes won't stay. The only problem is that they will be designing 3 classes in one for dk, if they see that as being a problem they will scrap it, but it's too early to say
I think the system is great, it's something that actually resembles a serious card game for once.
I love you Dreadsteed, I will never disenchant you!
People make all sorts of assumtions and talk about other classes having this ect. but its just a DK buff in wow XD In other words this = DK in wow and other classes have 0 to do with it.
I don't think they can roll it out for other classes because of the earlier mentiont problem that a class only gets 10 new cards and you want to provide to 3 different playstyles. If they find away around that i'm all for it and just call it talent builds.
The main problem with that though is that Paladin for example is easy DPS - Tank - Holy altough holy kinda overlaps with Tank control. Rogue for example has 3 dps builds so they would never get a real control build unless they work around that wich i'm sure they can with spells ect. I gues rogue in this case controls the opponent in pvp wow aswell.
I for one don't agree that Paladin always has to be the small dude class even though it has nothing to do with its wow counterpart and could easily be a strong control deck for example.
This rune system (and 3 different play styles) really represents the Death Knight from wow and it could easily be implemented for other classes. But again i'm curious too see how they are going to support it in future expansions. People also claim its easier to balance if thats true i'm all for it again. It could work but changes would need to be made how expansions are made.
Every class has already had many different archetypes in the past. That's all this is. All the developers have to do is assign an archetype to each specialization ("rune") and go from there. They can even change up which archetypes are represented by the specializations with each rotation.
Also, the various levels of dedication to a spec open up plenty of hybrid possibilities, so it's not completely paint-by-numbers.
"Why, you never expected justice from a company, did you? They have neither a soul to lose nor a body to kick." -- Lady Saba Holland
I think they could definitely roll out somthing similar to the other classes if it proved succesful, and in principle it does give them a separate way to balance cards/combinations without altering mana cost and effects.
Would they do it though? I'm not sure they would as it seems like it would be a lot of work to balance card combo's which may not need balanced. It also reduces the potential for deck variability (which is bad), but in practice there isn't much variability anyway due to net decks.
I changed my mind. They need to rework the class. It's so hard to lose against DK it's not even funny.
Chill out, it's literally day one, people still haven't figured out how to counter the class.
I love you Dreadsteed, I will never disenchant you!
I think he was implying that DK wasn't very good / doesn't win.
I'm not sure why though (I've only lost so far against another Deathknight).
I imagine there's a lot of trial and error versions going around at the moment.