Wait, which is it? There is no high skill ceiling in the game, or you just have to actually dedicate time and effort to achieve the high skill ceiling?
Can't be both.
I've been missing these "no skill" arguments though. I'd refer back to my last disproving of that, but it didn't do any good then either.
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Helpful Clarification on Forbidden Topics for Hearthstone Forums:
Enjoying Americans winning in the Olympics is forbidden because it is political. A 14 plus page discussion of state-sponsored lawsuits against a multi-national corporation based on harassment, discrimination, and wrongful death allegations is apparently not political enough to raise an issue.
Mouche, word of advice, cut your losses, accept failure and move on. So far in this thred you managed to insult players, talk like you understand standard to perfection despite being a wild main, claim that skill is no factor, and worst of all, you completely failed to bring any kind of concrete support to your claims. You just dismiss others without even naming a card, when all we have been saying is that yes, druid is strong, but not unbeatable. Aggro druid found a good pocket to thrive and prey on ramp druid and other slow greedy decks that tried to beat it. That's why it has/had the best winrate. Not because it is a deck that has its own tier. Hope this gives you a little more insight. If you continue arguing in salt-filled hypotheticals about a format you don't even play much, it's just making you look less smart with every post.
Hate to break it to you, but I agree with the creator of the thread.... Druid is toxic and has been for over 6 months. Unbeatable? no.... Fun to play against? Not at all... Also when I see druid 5 out of every 6 games played.... The class is overpowered and needs a Nerf.
Although I started this thread out of annoyance of playing against druid back to back to back times. Most of my annoyance is with just a few things.
1. They can without a doubt fill their board wayy more then two times. Starting turn 5-7 they have scales (full board 1 card) so clearing on 4-5 means that you cleared, then have to clear again, then have to clear again, then have to clear onyxia. And lasty drop a danathrius for 20+ dmg easy. So it definitely isn’t clear on turn 5 and auto win.
2. is that they have a tier 1 aggro deck and a tier 1 control/combo deck. Which means that mulligans for the class is 100% random, if I mulligan for my board clears and it’s control I have dead cards and can’t win.
3. anyone saying “play X Deck” is hilarious, I don’t have every card every expansion. I have two meta decks. Evolve shaman and Imp lock. I like em and they got me to diamond. But I don’t whale and open 400+ packs every release. I buy the regular bundle once a year. And I save a couple thousand gold.
Lastly …. NOTHING IS UNBEATABLE. I understand this. There are of course counters. And they can have god draws and I can have trashcan tier draws. It’s a card game. I’m just tired of Druid having all the tools for two years.
1. They can without a doubt fill their board wayy more then two times. Starting turn 5-7 they have scales (full board 1 card) so clearing on 4-5 means that you cleared, then have to clear again, then have to clear again, then have to clear onyxia. And lasty drop a danathrius for 20+ dmg easy. So it definitely isn’t clear on turn 5 and auto win.
1. Scales is not a full clear. If you have nothing stronger, that scales can't clear, by turn 5-7 (you are assuming they are drawing their hero card by that time, which doesn't happen in 50% of games due to ....RNG) the problem is in your deck. Onyxia is a 10 drop. Which is neutral, as Denathrius, so feel free to use them.
There are a lot of counters to this deck. Which is shown by the win rates of the Ramp Druid in legend. (Which are well below 50%, that is a, losing deck). If you are getting routinely beating by them.....sorry to break it to you, but it is YOUR fault. There is not 1 deck that Ramp Druid can routinely cramp, meanwhile pretty much every mage, every rogue every hunter and every lock has a good 55% win rating against them.
You know how you recognise a bad player? He/she is claiming there is no skill involved in the game
You're literally proving my point by saying that. I'm a bad player that gets legend. You're a good player that gets legend. How is this possible in a game where skill is heavily involved ? Keep digging Hearthstone's grave and pretending it's still alive. And feel free to have a best of 5 with me whenever you want to prove to the rest of the world you're a better player who can recognize bad players. And when you lose you'll tell yourself what I say in this thread : You had unlucky matchups/unlucky RNG, and skill didn't matter much in those circumstances.
Mouche, word of advice, cut your losses, accept failure and move on. So far in this thred you managed to insult players, talk like you understand standard to perfection despite being a wild main, claim that skill is no factor, and worst of all, you completely failed to bring any kind of concrete support to your claims. You just dismiss others without even naming a card, when all we have been saying is that yes, druid is strong, but not unbeatable. Aggro druid found a good pocket to thrive and prey on ramp druid and other slow greedy decks that tried to beat it. That's why it has/had the best winrate. Not because it is a deck that has its own tier. Hope this gives you a little more insight. If you continue arguing in salt-filled hypotheticals about a format you don't even play much, it's just making you look less smart with every post.
No.
and worst of all, you completely failed to bring any kind of concrete support to your claims.
I did not, you chose to ignore it and pretend it doesn't exist because you don't agree, big difference.
when all we have been saying is that yes, druid is strong, but not unbeatable.
Irrelevant, I never said it was unbeatable, word of advice, learn to read properly, it's useful.
If you continue arguing in salt-filled hypotheticals about a format you don't even play much, it's just making you look less smart with every post.
Good for you, I don't care, I will continue arguing for what I believe and you should have been taught to do the same by your parents.
So far in this thred you managed to insult players
You're a liar and a bully who takes pleasure in group mentality bullying, you're simply rallying with the bigger group despite said bigger group insulting me on multiple occasions but that doesn't seem to bother you, that's despicable and shameful, you are a disgrace to our species. I defended myself from players who insulted me, that's not insulting anymore at this point it's self defense and I stand by it, I will defend against you as well and feel free to feel insulted.
1. They can without a doubt fill their board wayy more then two times. Starting turn 5-7 they have scales (full board 1 card) so clearing on 4-5 means that you cleared, then have to clear again, then have to clear again, then have to clear onyxia. And lasty drop a danathrius for 20+ dmg easy. So it definitely isn’t clear on turn 5 and auto win.
1. Scales is not a full clear. If you have nothing stronger, that scales can't clear, by turn 5-7 (you are assuming they are drawing their hero card by that time, which doesn't happen in 50% of games due to ....RNG) the problem is in your deck. Onyxia is a 10 drop. Which is neutral, as Denathrius, so feel free to use them.
There are a lot of counters to this deck. Which is shown by the win rates of the Ramp Druid in legend. (Which are well below 50%, that is a, losing deck). If you are getting routinely beating by them.....sorry to break it to you, but it is YOUR fault. There is not 1 deck that Ramp Druid can routinely cramp, meanwhile pretty much every mage, every rogue every hunter and every lock has a good 55% win rating against them.
L2P issue.
1. scale is a full clear in 99% of cases on curve, you're full of shit. Onyxia and Denathrius are not 10 drops in druid decks, 10 drops implies turn 10. Being neutral is irrelevant when most neutral cards cater to one class more than the others.
If you are getting routinely beating by them.....sorry to break it to you, but it is YOUR fault.
Not it's the matchup fault, sorry to break it to you.
The only reason that Druid is overrepresented is that it's so cheap to build, every new player can construct the deck.
Fun to play against? Let me know, what is fun to play against for you mate? the matches that favor you, right? That's so fun!
The amount of hate that druid gets is inversely proportional to the win rate that it offers in high legend.
Another proof that the class has terrible design philosophy, it's bad in high legend yet feels bad to play against in non-high legend.
Also high legend isn't an argument when 99.99% (not an exaggeration) of the Hearthstone population has never played in it, including this thread and the very people who use it as an argument. Why should it even matter whan happens in high legend. Have you ever been in it ? I haven't (now watch the diamond 5 make fun of me for this statement), low legend is the end of the road for everyone who doesn't wish to play official tournaments.
Wait, which is it? There is no high skill ceiling in the game, or you just have to actually dedicate time and effort to achieve the high skill ceiling?
Can't be both.
I've been missing these "no skill" arguments though. I'd refer back to my last disproving of that, but it didn't do any good then either.
this one, no one said it's both, most people believe it's one or the other.
I can get legend with off meta deck while heavily intoxicated in the middle of the night while bingewatching game of thrones at the same time, where is the skill ceiling. Not only I can but I do all the time cause it's the only way I can enjoy hearthstone. You can't do that in any game or any sport or anything that requires legitimate high skill. Skill is sacrifice, you don't sacrifice anything to get good at hearthstone.
This is a game where you can climb with win streaks, immediately skill is out of the equation at this point, even before discussing why skill doesn't matter in a game ruled by RNG and early high rolls that get stronger and stronger with powercreep to the point where you can legitimately lose the game in the mulligan phase.
You didn't disprove anything, and that's why it didn't do any good, probably. (I'm only assuming cause I didn't read your stuff, I'm sure it's not all BS, but the conclusion certainly is)
I haven't played standard in ages. But, how does Priest deal with a board full of 4/4s on turn 4? That sounds like game over to me.
It seems to me that if any deck could consistently put a board of 4/4s on turn 4 it would be extremely OP. I'm guessing that is either a huge exaggeration or a rare nut draw situation.
But, with all the power creep in the game maybe I'm just behind the times.
Some of us just have this horrible thing with druids that makes them far far far far worse experiences than they should be. I for once would love a meta where druid doesn't do jack. At least I can win against implock and deadbeat mage, against druid somehow it's a 0 percent chance since I like to play homemade unoptimized decks and if opponent is aggro my removal is nowhere to be seen, if it's control Guff comes early and every little chance I had of actually playing my game goes out the window.
FOR FUCKS SAKE, IF I WANTED TO PLAY META DECKS I'D DO IT AND GET TO FREAKING LEGEND! I just want to play quietly in my low ass silver rank without choking on 40 identical ramp druids and 60 identical aggro druids. And it bothers me more than fighting other meta decks, because sometimes I do get to see unique techs and takes on other classes. Never druid. For me is a class for people who want to feel like they play overpowered every turn, and also deny other people their fun (while other classes want to do only one of those).
Your mentioning of the content creator who plays 18 hours a day is the reason I asked. That certainly implied that one could get better with a larger time commitment, which seemed a weird comment based on the claim that there is no high skill ceiling.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Helpful Clarification on Forbidden Topics for Hearthstone Forums:
Enjoying Americans winning in the Olympics is forbidden because it is political. A 14 plus page discussion of state-sponsored lawsuits against a multi-national corporation based on harassment, discrimination, and wrongful death allegations is apparently not political enough to raise an issue.
To the guy saying druid has a lot of board refills with scales of onyxia, aggro druid doesn't run any card more expensive than 4 mana.
It seems that the real bone people have to pick with is ramp druid. But of course ramp druid will beat your homebrew decks {that often have no initiative or game plan). But so will skeleton mage, control shaman, quest priest, etc.
Two different archetypes from a single class doesn't make that specific class toxic. These 2 archetypes are using totally different cards (some from neutral class) as a strategy to win the game so, it doesn't make sense to define Druid as a toxic class. Some may argue that certain Druid cards like Gruff, Scales of Onyxia, etc are OP when in fact, this is only true if the whole deck is designed to utilize the power behind these cards. The devs have provided the necessary tools to counter each card, even the ones with the highest potential to break the game. It is only a matter of balancing your deck to counter both aggro and control. The point is, players who engineer their decks (or netdeck) to utilize the said cards are rewarded; only IF the player has the skill and understanding to pilot it. Now as the opponent, you are given a problem that you have to deal with using your deck. If you keep on losing to both aggro and control druids then maybe you should question how you operate AND build your deck because clearly, for the complainers, there is a lack of understanding and fundamental knowledge for card games and it involves lots of skill from different aspects like deck construction, decision making and psyching your opponent to achieve victory.
Seems like ramp druid was finally killed (down to tier 3 post nerf). I still expect it to insta win against homebrew, no gameplan, no pressure decks, but at least the meta can finally diversify a bit now.
Seems like ramp druid was finally killed (down to tier 3 post nerf). I still expect it to insta win against homebrew, no gameplan, no pressure decks, but at least the meta can finally diversify a bit now.
Wait, which is it? There is no high skill ceiling in the game, or you just have to actually dedicate time and effort to achieve the high skill ceiling?
Can't be both.
I've been missing these "no skill" arguments though. I'd refer back to my last disproving of that, but it didn't do any good then either.
Helpful Clarification on Forbidden Topics for Hearthstone Forums:
Enjoying Americans winning in the Olympics is forbidden because it is political. A 14 plus page discussion of state-sponsored lawsuits against a multi-national corporation based on harassment, discrimination, and wrongful death allegations is apparently not political enough to raise an issue.
Mouche, word of advice, cut your losses, accept failure and move on. So far in this thred you managed to insult players, talk like you understand standard to perfection despite being a wild main, claim that skill is no factor, and worst of all, you completely failed to bring any kind of concrete support to your claims. You just dismiss others without even naming a card, when all we have been saying is that yes, druid is strong, but not unbeatable. Aggro druid found a good pocket to thrive and prey on ramp druid and other slow greedy decks that tried to beat it. That's why it has/had the best winrate. Not because it is a deck that has its own tier. Hope this gives you a little more insight. If you continue arguing in salt-filled hypotheticals about a format you don't even play much, it's just making you look less smart with every post.
Hate to break it to you, but I agree with the creator of the thread.... Druid is toxic and has been for over 6 months. Unbeatable? no.... Fun to play against? Not at all... Also when I see druid 5 out of every 6 games played.... The class is overpowered and needs a Nerf.
The only reason that Druid is overrepresented is that it's so cheap to build, every new player can construct the deck.
Fun to play against? Let me know, what is fun to play against for you mate? the matches that favor you, right? That's so fun!
The amount of hate that druid gets is inversely proportional to the win rate that it offers in high legend.
Although I started this thread out of annoyance of playing against druid back to back to back times. Most of my annoyance is with just a few things.
1. They can without a doubt fill their board wayy more then two times. Starting turn 5-7 they have scales (full board 1 card) so clearing on 4-5 means that you cleared, then have to clear again, then have to clear again, then have to clear onyxia. And lasty drop a danathrius for 20+ dmg easy. So it definitely isn’t clear on turn 5 and auto win.
2. is that they have a tier 1 aggro deck and a tier 1 control/combo deck. Which means that mulligans for the class is 100% random, if I mulligan for my board clears and it’s control I have dead cards and can’t win.
3. anyone saying “play X Deck” is hilarious, I don’t have every card every expansion. I have two meta decks. Evolve shaman and Imp lock. I like em and they got me to diamond. But I don’t whale and open 400+ packs every release. I buy the regular bundle once a year. And I save a couple thousand gold.
Lastly …. NOTHING IS UNBEATABLE. I understand this. There are of course counters. And they can have god draws and I can have trashcan tier draws. It’s a card game. I’m just tired of Druid having all the tools for two years.
1. Scales is not a full clear. If you have nothing stronger, that scales can't clear, by turn 5-7 (you are assuming they are drawing their hero card by that time, which doesn't happen in 50% of games due to ....RNG) the problem is in your deck. Onyxia is a 10 drop. Which is neutral, as Denathrius, so feel free to use them.
There are a lot of counters to this deck. Which is shown by the win rates of the Ramp Druid in legend. (Which are well below 50%, that is a, losing deck). If you are getting routinely beating by them.....sorry to break it to you, but it is YOUR fault. There is not 1 deck that Ramp Druid can routinely cramp, meanwhile pretty much every mage, every rogue every hunter and every lock has a good 55% win rating against them.
L2P issue.
You're literally proving my point by saying that. I'm a bad player that gets legend. You're a good player that gets legend. How is this possible in a game where skill is heavily involved ? Keep digging Hearthstone's grave and pretending it's still alive. And feel free to have a best of 5 with me whenever you want to prove to the rest of the world you're a better player who can recognize bad players. And when you lose you'll tell yourself what I say in this thread : You had unlucky matchups/unlucky RNG, and skill didn't matter much in those circumstances.
No.
I did not, you chose to ignore it and pretend it doesn't exist because you don't agree, big difference.
Irrelevant, I never said it was unbeatable, word of advice, learn to read properly, it's useful.
Good for you, I don't care, I will continue arguing for what I believe and you should have been taught to do the same by your parents.
You're a liar and a bully who takes pleasure in group mentality bullying, you're simply rallying with the bigger group despite said bigger group insulting me on multiple occasions but that doesn't seem to bother you, that's despicable and shameful, you are a disgrace to our species. I defended myself from players who insulted me, that's not insulting anymore at this point it's self defense and I stand by it, I will defend against you as well and feel free to feel insulted.
1. scale is a full clear in 99% of cases on curve, you're full of shit. Onyxia and Denathrius are not 10 drops in druid decks, 10 drops implies turn 10. Being neutral is irrelevant when most neutral cards cater to one class more than the others.
Not it's the matchup fault, sorry to break it to you.
Another proof that the class has terrible design philosophy, it's bad in high legend yet feels bad to play against in non-high legend.
Also high legend isn't an argument when 99.99% (not an exaggeration) of the Hearthstone population has never played in it, including this thread and the very people who use it as an argument. Why should it even matter whan happens in high legend. Have you ever been in it ? I haven't (now watch the diamond 5 make fun of me for this statement), low legend is the end of the road for everyone who doesn't wish to play official tournaments.
this one, no one said it's both, most people believe it's one or the other.
I can get legend with off meta deck while heavily intoxicated in the middle of the night while bingewatching game of thrones at the same time, where is the skill ceiling. Not only I can but I do all the time cause it's the only way I can enjoy hearthstone. You can't do that in any game or any sport or anything that requires legitimate high skill. Skill is sacrifice, you don't sacrifice anything to get good at hearthstone.
This is a game where you can climb with win streaks, immediately skill is out of the equation at this point, even before discussing why skill doesn't matter in a game ruled by RNG and early high rolls that get stronger and stronger with powercreep to the point where you can legitimately lose the game in the mulligan phase.
You didn't disprove anything, and that's why it didn't do any good, probably. (I'm only assuming cause I didn't read your stuff, I'm sure it's not all BS, but the conclusion certainly is)
I haven't played standard in ages. But, how does Priest deal with a board full of 4/4s on turn 4? That sounds like game over to me.
It seems to me that if any deck could consistently put a board of 4/4s on turn 4 it would be extremely OP. I'm guessing that is either a huge exaggeration or a rare nut draw situation.
But, with all the power creep in the game maybe I'm just behind the times.
It's Guff on turn 3 that makes it feel like I'm playing against druids that are trying to play solitaire.
Some of us just have this horrible thing with druids that makes them far far far far worse experiences than they should be. I for once would love a meta where druid doesn't do jack. At least I can win against implock and deadbeat mage, against druid somehow it's a 0 percent chance since I like to play homemade unoptimized decks and if opponent is aggro my removal is nowhere to be seen, if it's control Guff comes early and every little chance I had of actually playing my game goes out the window.
FOR FUCKS SAKE, IF I WANTED TO PLAY META DECKS I'D DO IT AND GET TO FREAKING LEGEND! I just want to play quietly in my low ass silver rank without choking on 40 identical ramp druids and 60 identical aggro druids. And it bothers me more than fighting other meta decks, because sometimes I do get to see unique techs and takes on other classes. Never druid. For me is a class for people who want to feel like they play overpowered every turn, and also deny other people their fun (while other classes want to do only one of those).
Click to see my Hearthstone projects:
Your mentioning of the content creator who plays 18 hours a day is the reason I asked. That certainly implied that one could get better with a larger time commitment, which seemed a weird comment based on the claim that there is no high skill ceiling.
Helpful Clarification on Forbidden Topics for Hearthstone Forums:
Enjoying Americans winning in the Olympics is forbidden because it is political. A 14 plus page discussion of state-sponsored lawsuits against a multi-national corporation based on harassment, discrimination, and wrongful death allegations is apparently not political enough to raise an issue.
To the guy saying druid has a lot of board refills with scales of onyxia, aggro druid doesn't run any card more expensive than 4 mana.
It seems that the real bone people have to pick with is ramp druid. But of course ramp druid will beat your homebrew decks {that often have no initiative or game plan). But so will skeleton mage, control shaman, quest priest, etc.
Two different archetypes from a single class doesn't make that specific class toxic. These 2 archetypes are using totally different cards (some from neutral class) as a strategy to win the game so, it doesn't make sense to define Druid as a toxic class. Some may argue that certain Druid cards like Gruff, Scales of Onyxia, etc are OP when in fact, this is only true if the whole deck is designed to utilize the power behind these cards. The devs have provided the necessary tools to counter each card, even the ones with the highest potential to break the game. It is only a matter of balancing your deck to counter both aggro and control. The point is, players who engineer their decks (or netdeck) to utilize the said cards are rewarded; only IF the player has the skill and understanding to pilot it. Now as the opponent, you are given a problem that you have to deal with using your deck. If you keep on losing to both aggro and control druids then maybe you should question how you operate AND build your deck because clearly, for the complainers, there is a lack of understanding and fundamental knowledge for card games and it involves lots of skill from different aspects like deck construction, decision making and psyching your opponent to achieve victory.
Kael thas nerf, Guff nerf, thanks devs for proving my points. Druid was indeed the problem, not Denathrius.
Seems like ramp druid was finally killed (down to tier 3 post nerf). I still expect it to insta win against homebrew, no gameplan, no pressure decks, but at least the meta can finally diversify a bit now.
https://www.vicioussyndicate.com/drr/vs-power-rankings-data-reaper-report/
Yeah, very diverse, 4 aggro decks and a semi-aggro deck in tier 1 :D