It's honestly quite absurd (given all the BS "fk you, I win" stuff in Hearthstone wild right now) that a comparatively tame card powerlevel wise like Daniel(a.k.a.Sire Denathrius, it's just my stupid nickname for the card, don't bother) is destroying my will to play the game relatively quickly.
Let me explain:
I should preface by saying that I loathe the direction that lategame winconditions are going, we are moving further and further away from the (WAY more fun imo)"deal with this" winconditions like: Hadronox Deathstalker Rexxar N'Zoth, the Corruptor or even the quadruple Mind Blast dealing 22 dmg (max and once per game) in a turn thanks to Shadowreaper Anduin and Shadow Visions that, while powerful, gave the opponent a way to react so you had to either bait the opponent's answers, get them low enough or have other plans in case these were dealt with like (for example) elemental mage had Frost Lich Jaina to try to "outgrind" the opponent if all the most powerful elementals were dealt with in some way (the most important thing being that even these "backup wincons" were not a guaranteed win in the slightest)
and we are getting pushed deeper and deeper down the (shit)hole of "good luck lol" winconditions like Kazakusan that may not say "win the game" directly but like...come on...you have to be an irl rat to lose from there...or gigantic (25/30 dmg and upwards) burst cards like a well "built" and "Branned up" Kel'Thuzad, the Inevitable.
On top of that OTK/mill/infinite decks and disruption cards are just as unfun to face AND play as always. Pretty bad right?
Well surprisingly, thanks to the prevalence of aggro in wild that keeps these last 4 playstyles/cards somewhat(can't stress this word enough) in check, I was able to have some fun b4 Castle Nathria released and even find the rare (quite rare sadly) enjoyable deck to face from time to time so (while nowhere near a healthy metagame) overall I had seen WAY worse so I was looking forward to the expansion MAYBE making things better.
However something changed shortly after Nathria dropped: Most toxic decks stayed the same, most aggro decks stayed the same, disruption became even more common (and toxic) because of Theotar, the Mad Duke but overall it looked like the situation was going to be bad, yes, but not too tragic so...a repeat of how it was b4 the expantion...until I met my first Hadronox druid. Now...I was playing my (stupid) version of questline shaman that uses the doubled up spells to be able to clear basically any board and Hagatha the Witch to...Idk do some BS and hopefully win (it's actually REALLY fun when you don't get OTK/mill/infinite'd to death) and it had already proven to be able to confortably run several big priests out of threats without transform effects b4 (granted...only if I completed the quest quicky enough) so I was pretty confident going in. The game goes on and my opponent had a version that used Wildheart Guff, Hedge Maze and Carnivorous Cube to play (and destroy)Hadronox an ungodly amount of times, however due to how I built my deck (and a small amount of highrolling) I had managed to run him out of threats completely and the game had been fun but (in my head) it was already mine...and then he played a 60 damage NO-BRANNDaniel and blasted my soul into the loving embrace of Nurgle (if you're not familiar with Warhammer fantasy/40k lore this may make no sense, look it up if you're curious). Then the exact same scenario kept happening where EVERY deck that I could even remotely consider fun to play against would either win via threats (the acceptable, fun way) or get ALL their threats dealt with and then just go "lol here's 60 dmg to face thx for the free stars".
So now I'm starting to lose hope...not only are the stupid OTK/mill/infinite decks STILL a real, almost prevalent force in the metagame, only kept in check by "all out aggression" decks but also all the decks I used to really enjoy playing against (rare as the may be) now run a free 50/60 dmg OTK button with Daniel. I am currently in a state where I love seeing big priests and pirate rogues as my opponents just because with them I know I'm not facing something else so yea...not ideal.
I've recently found out that many people hate him as well (for slightly different reasons) and that he seems to be overperforming (in standard at least) so...how likely do you think a "infuse 2" or "enemy minions" style nerf is?
My issue with the card is the fact that it's essentially an OTK card for the most part. OTK cards tend to go into a slower, heavy control deck that struggles against aggro but denathrius essentially goes into spammy/swarmy faster decks. Not only does it do well as a deck but to also plop a card that can board clear and take out the opponent is problematic for me in those types of decks.
I don't like OTK and I know generally, the public doesn't either but at least they struggled against faster decks, denathrius goes into fast decks that handles fast decks well enough, making it a sort of best of both worlds.
Making it an 8 mana 8/8 that only targets minions would be better imo. Still fast enough to pull back a losing game without flat out destroying the opponent, and it would calm druid down without guff needing a touch up
I agree about the larger issue. Blizzard seems to want games to always end in a timely manner, so win conditions have become harder and harder to counter. OTKs used to be niche and specifically played to counter slow attrition, now it's just a regular part of like 50% of decks.
And since this is a systemic issue that goes beyond just Denathrius, I don't think nerfing him solves anything. Sure we'd see less of specifically him, but I don't know if that's necessarily a good thing right now considering he's supposed to be the main star of the set.
However I think Blizzard is actually doing some things to improve the situation. Consider what inevitable win condition have been introduced this year. Sunken City has Abyssal Curses, Nathria has Denathrius and Kel'Thuzad, and... that's it. Compare that to last year which had both the quests and the hero cards. Not only are there fewer sources of inevitability but they are all minion-based, meaning they are much easier to disrupt. Things might not feel great right now but I have high hopes for next year.
I feel you, worst thing imo is that it’s a one card win the game play. I feel like those are more and more prevalent. They just ruin the game, you’re dealing with all their threats and then they play one card and they win…… it’s just a no brainer to play it too. I have no problem with OTK decks that need like 4 or 5 cards to work. Those take time to build up and you can counter them. This feels like the quest mage era where they were just playing with theirselves.
[...] however due to how I built my deck I had managed to run him out of threats completely [...] get ALL their threats dealt with and then just go "lol here's 60 dmg to face thx for the free stars" [...]
Then you didn't clear their threats. Use Theo, Rat, Vol'jin, ...
[...] however due to how I built my deck I had managed to run him out of threats completely [...] get ALL their threats dealt with and then just go "lol here's 60 dmg to face thx for the free stars" [...]
Then you didn't clear their threats. Use Theo, Rat, Vol'jin, ...
I agree about the larger issue. Blizzard seems to want games to always end in a timely manner, so win conditions have become harder and harder to counter. OTKs used to be niche and specifically played to counter slow attrition, now it's just a regular part of like 50% of decks.
And since this is a systemic issue that goes beyond just Denathrius, I don't think nerfing him solves anything. Sure we'd see less of specifically him, but I don't know if that's necessarily a good thing right now considering he's supposed to be the main star of the set.
well yea obviously we'd need A LOT more nerfs/buffs to get to a healthy metagame, however I was pointing out how he's killing my enjoyment of the game by making the (very) few decks that WERE fun to play agains not fun anymore because they now run a 1 card OTK that rewards them for what you'd previously consider losing the game (a.k.a. getting all their threatening boards/value destroyed)
However I think Blizzard is actually doing some things to improve the situation. Consider what inevitable win condition have been introduced this year. Sunken City has Abyssal Curses, Nathria has Denathrius and Kel'Thuzad, and... that's it. Compare that to last year which had both the quests and the hero cards. Not only are there fewer sources of inevitability but they are all minion-based, meaning they are much easier to disrupt. Things might not feel great right now but I have high hopes for next year.
Well not all hero cards are unreactable/unsurvivable (mostly...there are exeptions...expecially in specific decks) and even SOME quests were fine (warrior/druid/even paladin to an extent/rogue) while the more unreactable ones were either fine but the cards around them were problematic(mage/demon hunter/shaman) or just BS(priest/warlock) it's just that the unreactable ones will usually be stronger. I SERIOUSLY hope you're right on your hopes
[...] however due to how I built my deck I had managed to run him out of threats completely [...] get ALL their threats dealt with and then just go "lol here's 60 dmg to face thx for the free stars" [...]
Then you didn't clear their threats. Use Theo, Rat, Vol'jin, ...
well ok then...let me rephrase that: I cleared ALL their threats that have counterplay that isn't limited to "just kill them lol" or "just win the cointoss lol" and the reason why those decks were so much fun to face for me was exactly that there were NO threats like that so I could play an actual Hearthstone game intead of a "did you snipe the wincondition?" cointoss simulator.
I think Sire Denathrius should only affect enemy minions. That would still make it stronger than Raid Boss Onyxia, which was previously considered the strongest standard 10 drop in the game. The results are similar, it would be a board clear with a strong body left on the board. Only with Denathrius, it would also provide healing, and that body also has lifesteal.
The current issue is that the person who draws Denathrius earliest and avoids having it stolen usually wins the game.
I find it really odd to see both OTK and Disruption labeled as toxic in the same post. It is common for someone who hates combo decks to complain about them, or for someone who loves them to complain about disruption. Not liking both takes things a step farther. Not only does one not like combo decks, but also don't want to use the specific tools to counter them. It's like hating token aggro but refusing to use cheap aoe.
I know that people argue that combo decks cause the game to become an either or situation where they either play their wincon or you win by denying it, but the thing is you didn't invoke that situation by including a disruption card in your deck. They choose to place their hopes on one card and allowed themselves to lose to one card in return.
As to the question of "Is the game worse off having high impact wincons?", that's just a matter of how powercrept it's gotten. Both the cards that kill your opponent from full health and the cards that can prevent that have gotten stronger. I actually think that introducing both both Theotar and Denathrius was a good move
I find it really odd to see both OTK and Disruption labeled as toxic in the same post. It is common for someone who hates combo decks to complain about them, or for someone who loves them to complain about disruption. Not liking both takes things a step farther. Not only does one not like combo decks, but also don't want to use the specific tools to counter them. It's like hating token aggro but refusing to use cheap aoe.
Oh believe you me...I do play disruption cards, even all of the "toxic triad" of rat+mutanus+theo in the same deck if I can fit them...but that's only because I have to otherwise I'd be stuck in silver 10 playing vs whatever uninteresting flavour of Mecha'thun people decide to play this week...but that doesn't make them feel good to play EVER...never once in all the games I played did I go "oh that was a really fun game...I was good enough at the game to draw rat, play it with Brann and randomly win/lose on the spot because I did/didn't snipe their unreactable BS/strongest wincondition" and this about sums up why I loathe both these card types: you have unreactable BS where the only counterplay is "just kill them lol" (which is VERY hard if not impossible to do for some otherwise perfectly viable decks) or "just win the disruption cointoss lol" (which is RNG DIRECTLY deciding the outcome of the game with VERY little player agency), for every other "reactable" matchup though disruption cards range from "potentially useless" to "autowins" depending on the matchup and...well...near uncontrollable RNG again. Don't get me wrong...I love the random aspect of the game, discover is my (second, fatigue and lifesteal are tied for first) favourite mechanic because it's CONTROLLED RNG that helps you win the game but doesn't just randomly discard (or even worse...steal) your opponent's N'zoth winning you the game on the spot for no reason.
I know that people argue that combo decks cause the game to become an either or situation where they either play their wincon or you win by denying it, but the thing is you didn't invoke that situation by including a disruption card in your deck. They choose to place their hopes on one card and allowed themselves to lose to one card in return.
And that's why they are VERY unfun to face, if your decks isn't built to win by turn 6/7 your only hope is to randomly win or lose the game on the spot because of 1/2/3 cards with NO other part of your deck playing ANY type of a role
As to the question of "Is the game worse off having high impact wincons?", that's just a matter of how powercrept it's gotten. Both the cards that kill your opponent from full health and the cards that can prevent that have gotten stronger. I actually think that introducing both both Theotar and Denathrius was a good move
This is VERY similar to what I like to call the "MTG veteran fallacy", which is something I observed that MTG players tend to advocate for (or at least defend) disruption cards (and mill cards too, but let's not derail for now) without realizing that the 2 games are way too different for their concepts of counterplay to apply to HS. The main problem with that approach is that HS has NO interaction during the opponent's turn so, just like how OTKs are impossible to stop, disruption cards are impossible to interact with AND play around as well (I mean...sure...you can try to keep a big hand...WOW...nice skill based, interesting counterplay with tons of decisions involved) meaning they can randomly decide to win/lose the game, and that's not just vs OTKs and similar, this also applies to most non-aggro matchups...if those cards randomly snipe a key value/powerful/survival card you can kiss the win goodblye and just concede on the spot because you're not winning an (otherwise) even matchup without your strongest cards while your opponent still has theirs. Did I mention that this potential autowin is ALSO purely luck based...yea...fun right?
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Sorry...this is longer than expected :/
It's honestly quite absurd (given all the BS "fk you, I win" stuff in Hearthstone wild right now) that a comparatively tame card powerlevel wise like Daniel (a.k.a. Sire Denathrius, it's just my stupid nickname for the card, don't bother) is destroying my will to play the game relatively quickly.
Let me explain:
I should preface by saying that I loathe the direction that lategame winconditions are going, we are moving further and further away from the (WAY more fun imo) "deal with this" winconditions like:
Hadronox
Deathstalker Rexxar
N'Zoth, the Corruptor
or even the quadruple Mind Blast dealing 22 dmg (max and once per game) in a turn thanks to Shadowreaper Anduin and Shadow Visions
that, while powerful, gave the opponent a way to react so you had to either bait the opponent's answers, get them low enough or have other plans in case these were dealt with like (for example) elemental mage had Frost Lich Jaina to try to "outgrind" the opponent if all the most powerful elementals were dealt with in some way (the most important thing being that even these "backup wincons" were not a guaranteed win in the slightest)
and we are getting pushed deeper and deeper down the (shit)hole of "good luck lol" winconditions like Kazakusan that may not say "win the game" directly but like...come on...you have to be an irl rat to lose from there...or gigantic (25/30 dmg and upwards) burst cards like a well "built" and "Branned up" Kel'Thuzad, the Inevitable.
On top of that OTK/mill/infinite decks and disruption cards are just as unfun to face AND play as always. Pretty bad right?
Well surprisingly, thanks to the prevalence of aggro in wild that keeps these last 4 playstyles/cards somewhat (can't stress this word enough) in check, I was able to have some fun b4 Castle Nathria released and even find the rare (quite rare sadly) enjoyable deck to face from time to time so (while nowhere near a healthy metagame) overall I had seen WAY worse so I was looking forward to the expansion MAYBE making things better.
However something changed shortly after Nathria dropped:
Most toxic decks stayed the same, most aggro decks stayed the same, disruption became even more common (and toxic) because of Theotar, the Mad Duke but overall it looked like the situation was going to be bad, yes, but not too tragic so...a repeat of how it was b4 the expantion...until I met my first Hadronox druid. Now...I was playing my (stupid) version of questline shaman that uses the doubled up spells to be able to clear basically any board and Hagatha the Witch to...Idk do some BS and hopefully win (it's actually REALLY fun when you don't get OTK/mill/infinite'd to death) and it had already proven to be able to confortably run several big priests out of threats without transform effects b4 (granted...only if I completed the quest quicky enough) so I was pretty confident going in. The game goes on and my opponent had a version that used Wildheart Guff, Hedge Maze and Carnivorous Cube to play (and destroy) Hadronox an ungodly amount of times, however due to how I built my deck (and a small amount of highrolling) I had managed to run him out of threats completely and the game had been fun but (in my head) it was already mine...and then he played a 60 damage NO-BRANN Daniel and blasted my soul into the loving embrace of Nurgle (if you're not familiar with Warhammer fantasy/40k lore this may make no sense, look it up if you're curious). Then the exact same scenario kept happening where EVERY deck that I could even remotely consider fun to play against would either win via threats (the acceptable, fun way) or get ALL their threats dealt with and then just go "lol here's 60 dmg to face thx for the free stars".
So now I'm starting to lose hope...not only are the stupid OTK/mill/infinite decks STILL a real, almost prevalent force in the metagame, only kept in check by "all out aggression" decks but also all the decks I used to really enjoy playing against (rare as the may be) now run a free 50/60 dmg OTK button with Daniel. I am currently in a state where I love seeing big priests and pirate rogues as my opponents just because with them I know I'm not facing something else so yea...not ideal.
I've recently found out that many people hate him as well (for slightly different reasons) and that he seems to be overperforming (in standard at least) so...how likely do you think a "infuse 2" or "enemy minions" style nerf is?
Denathrius has too high a damage cap when combined with the Lifesteal. Either cap his damage at 10, or remove the Lifesteal ability.
Please.
I think endlessly Infuse (2) is a fine nerf to start with, and judge from there
5/5 lifesteal deal 5 split between enemy minions excess damage becomes armor.
Btw. do you think its by design or just a lazy oversight, that this cards ability gets rendered useless after hitting divine shield?
Yeah, the card is pretty weird. You lose if you can't clear their boards and you also lose if you clear it.
My issue with the card is the fact that it's essentially an OTK card for the most part. OTK cards tend to go into a slower, heavy control deck that struggles against aggro but denathrius essentially goes into spammy/swarmy faster decks. Not only does it do well as a deck but to also plop a card that can board clear and take out the opponent is problematic for me in those types of decks.
I don't like OTK and I know generally, the public doesn't either but at least they struggled against faster decks, denathrius goes into fast decks that handles fast decks well enough, making it a sort of best of both worlds.
Making it an 8 mana 8/8 that only targets minions would be better imo. Still fast enough to pull back a losing game without flat out destroying the opponent, and it would calm druid down without guff needing a touch up
I agree about the larger issue. Blizzard seems to want games to always end in a timely manner, so win conditions have become harder and harder to counter. OTKs used to be niche and specifically played to counter slow attrition, now it's just a regular part of like 50% of decks.
And since this is a systemic issue that goes beyond just Denathrius, I don't think nerfing him solves anything. Sure we'd see less of specifically him, but I don't know if that's necessarily a good thing right now considering he's supposed to be the main star of the set.
However I think Blizzard is actually doing some things to improve the situation. Consider what inevitable win condition have been introduced this year. Sunken City has Abyssal Curses, Nathria has Denathrius and Kel'Thuzad, and... that's it. Compare that to last year which had both the quests and the hero cards. Not only are there fewer sources of inevitability but they are all minion-based, meaning they are much easier to disrupt. Things might not feel great right now but I have high hopes for next year.
I feel you, worst thing imo is that it’s a one card win the game play. I feel like those are more and more prevalent. They just ruin the game, you’re dealing with all their threats and then they play one card and they win…… it’s just a no brainer to play it too. I have no problem with OTK decks that need like 4 or 5 cards to work. Those take time to build up and you can counter them. This feels like the quest mage era where they were just playing with theirselves.
Then you didn't clear their threats. Use Theo, Rat, Vol'jin, ...
Neither as it isn't like C'thun. It deals damage all at once and divine shields protects against the next damage - no matter how big.
Lol, that was the question. Is it by design or just a lazy oversight? All you did was to explain how it works just right now.
well yea obviously we'd need A LOT more nerfs/buffs to get to a healthy metagame, however I was pointing out how he's killing my enjoyment of the game by making the (very) few decks that WERE fun to play agains not fun anymore because they now run a 1 card OTK that rewards them for what you'd previously consider losing the game (a.k.a. getting all their threatening boards/value destroyed)
Well not all hero cards are unreactable/unsurvivable (mostly...there are exeptions...expecially in specific decks) and even SOME quests were fine (warrior/druid/even paladin to an extent/rogue) while the more unreactable ones were either fine but the cards around them were problematic (mage/demon hunter/shaman) or just BS (priest/warlock) it's just that the unreactable ones will usually be stronger. I SERIOUSLY hope you're right on your hopes
well ok then...let me rephrase that: I cleared ALL their threats that have counterplay that isn't limited to "just kill them lol" or "just win the cointoss lol" and the reason why those decks were so much fun to face for me was exactly that there were NO threats like that so I could play an actual Hearthstone game intead of a "did you snipe the wincondition?" cointoss simulator.
I think Sire Denathrius should only affect enemy minions. That would still make it stronger than Raid Boss Onyxia, which was previously considered the strongest standard 10 drop in the game. The results are similar, it would be a board clear with a strong body left on the board. Only with Denathrius, it would also provide healing, and that body also has lifesteal.
The current issue is that the person who draws Denathrius earliest and avoids having it stolen usually wins the game.
I find it really odd to see both OTK and Disruption labeled as toxic in the same post. It is common for someone who hates combo decks to complain about them, or for someone who loves them to complain about disruption. Not liking both takes things a step farther. Not only does one not like combo decks, but also don't want to use the specific tools to counter them. It's like hating token aggro but refusing to use cheap aoe.
I know that people argue that combo decks cause the game to become an either or situation where they either play their wincon or you win by denying it, but the thing is you didn't invoke that situation by including a disruption card in your deck. They choose to place their hopes on one card and allowed themselves to lose to one card in return.
As to the question of "Is the game worse off having high impact wincons?", that's just a matter of how powercrept it's gotten. Both the cards that kill your opponent from full health and the cards that can prevent that have gotten stronger. I actually think that introducing both both Theotar and Denathrius was a good move
I find it really odd to see both OTK and Disruption labeled as toxic in the same post. It is common for someone who hates combo decks to complain about them, or for someone who loves them to complain about disruption. Not liking both takes things a step farther. Not only does one not like combo decks, but also don't want to use the specific tools to counter them. It's like hating token aggro but refusing to use cheap aoe.
Oh believe you me...I do play disruption cards, even all of the "toxic triad" of rat+mutanus+theo in the same deck if I can fit them...but that's only because I have to otherwise I'd be stuck in silver 10 playing vs whatever uninteresting flavour of Mecha'thun people decide to play this week...but that doesn't make them feel good to play EVER...never once in all the games I played did I go "oh that was a really fun game...I was good enough at the game to draw rat, play it with Brann and randomly win/lose on the spot because I did/didn't snipe their unreactable BS/strongest wincondition" and this about sums up why I loathe both these card types: you have unreactable BS where the only counterplay is "just kill them lol" (which is VERY hard if not impossible to do for some otherwise perfectly viable decks) or "just win the disruption cointoss lol" (which is RNG DIRECTLY deciding the outcome of the game with VERY little player agency), for every other "reactable" matchup though disruption cards range from "potentially useless" to "autowins" depending on the matchup and...well...near uncontrollable RNG again.
Don't get me wrong...I love the random aspect of the game, discover is my (second, fatigue and lifesteal are tied for first) favourite mechanic because it's CONTROLLED RNG that helps you win the game but doesn't just randomly discard (or even worse...steal) your opponent's N'zoth winning you the game on the spot for no reason.
I know that people argue that combo decks cause the game to become an either or situation where they either play their wincon or you win by denying it, but the thing is you didn't invoke that situation by including a disruption card in your deck. They choose to place their hopes on one card and allowed themselves to lose to one card in return.
And that's why they are VERY unfun to face, if your decks isn't built to win by turn 6/7 your only hope is to randomly win or lose the game on the spot because of 1/2/3 cards with NO other part of your deck playing ANY type of a role
As to the question of "Is the game worse off having high impact wincons?", that's just a matter of how powercrept it's gotten. Both the cards that kill your opponent from full health and the cards that can prevent that have gotten stronger. I actually think that introducing both both Theotar and Denathrius was a good move
This is VERY similar to what I like to call the "MTG veteran fallacy", which is something I observed that MTG players tend to advocate for (or at least defend) disruption cards (and mill cards too, but let's not derail for now) without realizing that the 2 games are way too different for their concepts of counterplay to apply to HS. The main problem with that approach is that HS has NO interaction during the opponent's turn so, just like how OTKs are impossible to stop, disruption cards are impossible to interact with AND play around as well (I mean...sure...you can try to keep a big hand...WOW...nice skill based, interesting counterplay with tons of decisions involved) meaning they can randomly decide to win/lose the game, and that's not just vs OTKs and similar, this also applies to most non-aggro matchups...if those cards randomly snipe a key value/powerful/survival card you can kiss the win goodblye and just concede on the spot because you're not winning an (otherwise) even matchup without your strongest cards while your opponent still has theirs. Did I mention that this potential autowin is ALSO purely luck based...yea...fun right?