...because it bottlenecks deckbuilding, or it makes it so that the best decks to build for all of these cards will be aggro/small minion type decks which I don't think is good for diversity within the game.
Even the less successful/effective keywords like Honorable Kill or Frenzy or Corrupt could all still see play in all types of decks, and really when you look back, I don't think there has ever been a keyword that targets a certain build type so narrowly. All the others (Spellburst, Echo, Rush, Dredge, Twinspell, Tradeable, etc) are versatile in one way or another. Not to be a negative nancy, but I have my doubts right now. Thoughts?
Most of the cards so far aren't good in aggro decks, at least most of them. so they mostly fit into a slower or midrange deck with early game boardprecence.
I don't think infuse will be bad per se, but only some easily infusable cards will see play.
For example Sinfueled Golem and Sire Denathrius that need a good build-up to become playable AND they also need to be on your hand to work will become unplayable, unfortunately. However, cards like Imp King Rafaam and Mischievous Imp will be far more playable, since they are cheaper and still decent to use without the infusion, while at the same time, due to their low mana cost, Infuse will have a bigger pay-off.
Finally there are Infuse cards that will either become unplayable or at least their Infuse won't be triggered as often as desired, due to the fact that they belong in a class that can't support swarmy decks, like Frozen Touch in Mage. On the other hand, then there are cards like Buffet Biggun that become playable due to the staple ability of the Paladin class to summon tokens, while having also a big pay-off.
All in all, I think Infuse will have its role in Hearthstone's history, it's just that cards like Sire Denathrius will be far more difficult to give a decent pay-off.
I think the problem is mainly that you need to have these Infuse cards in your hand AND have cards you can play to up the infuse count. You can;t have just infuse cards or just cards that die in your hand, you need BOTH.
What I suspect is that classes that have more draw and generation in their arsenal will be able to better keep the flow of cards going and get the correct cards in hand if they do not initially have the correct cards in hand.
So some classes will have a definite benefit with this key word compared to others, and that might be a problem.
I will say this though, the pattern of the last 2 expansions has been clear that they want to encourage people to play balanced decks with both minions and spells. The Nagas from Sunken City combined minions with spell afinity and Infuse forces you to have minions that die. This is definitely a healthier approach then the middle of last year (Stormwind and its Tradeable and Quests). So whatever happens with this meta it will be less polarizing then the meta a year ago. And that's in part due to Infuse.
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Right now the only infuse cards I see working out are the warlock ones since it's relatively easy to board vomit with zoo and get the 4 mana 9/9 infuse blowout on turn 4 if it was kept in your hand, plus with life tap you won't just lose once you vomit your hand and get stuck with nothing after playing it.
That being said if any control infuse cards get printed we have to remember Scale of Onyxia and Expendable Performers are in the game, easily infusing anything. You might be able to use Sire Denathrius off of just a 2x scale package - that's a 19 damage lifesteal avenging wrath right there.
Nah, I think you guys are underestimating how many minions you lose per turn, and how few minions most of these infuse cards need. You don't need to run a token deck to take advantage of a lot of them, but some of them are certainly FOR token decks (like the Hunter legendary). But Door of Shadows for example REALLY doesn't need a token-heavy strategy to work. You just need to lose two minions.
For example Sinfueled Golem and Sire Denathrius that need a good build-up to become playable AND they also need to be on your hand to work will become unplayable, unfortunately. However, cards like Imp King Rafaam and Mischievous Imp will be far more playable, since they are cheaper and still decent to use without the infusion, while at the same time, due to their low mana cost, Infuse will have a bigger pay-off.
Finally there are Infuse cards that will either become unplayable or at least their Infuse won't be triggered as often as desired, due to the fact that they belong in a class that can't support swarmy decks, like Frozen Touch in Mage. On the other hand, then there are cards like Buffet Biggun that become playable due to the staple ability of the Paladin class to summon tokens, while having also a big pay-off.
Ehh... Denathrius doesn't take much to power him up. Even after 3 infuses, that's a huge board swing attached to a giant body. After 10 it's a Mask of C'thun attached to a 10/10 that heals you.
As to Icy Touch... I mean a 2 mana 3 damage spell is already good. And they literally introduced a whole mage archetype that involves spamming the board with minions. To say nothing of Naga mage or mech mage... which also flood the board with minions.
@AWT "...because it bottlenecks deckbuilding, or it makes it so that the best decks to build for all of these cards will be aggro/small minion type decks which I don't think is good for diversity within the game."
This is untrue , it targets zoo/token decks, or decks that summon multiple minions .The infuse mechanic at first glance should have a better synergy with paladin/shaman/druid/warlock , since these decks generate tokens or have flood board spells. Now all 4 of these classes always had control decks, so it dosn't neceserly target Agro. We would be in a world of pain, if it took of in demon hunter,rouge,hunter ...
Another mentionable note is the mana cost,till now lowest infuse cards were 4 mana , and majority around 7 mana , if aggro run's a 7 mana card , they will never keep it in muligan and when they draw it, they expect it to have imediate impact using it as a finisher card, the infuse mechanic is the total opposite of this. Example Huntsman Altimor this card looks very solid ,arguable 1 of the better legendarys and infuse cards ,if you get even 2 companions for 7 mana thats ridiculous value and totaly worth it,but this card will shine in Beast Hunter(which is a midrange deck curently) not an aggro version since it needs build up when drawn.
PS: @AWT "All the others (Spellburst, Echo, Rush, Dredge, Twinspell, Tradeable, etc) are versatile in one way or another." . This is again untrue, we had one of the worst aggro meta, when discover mechanic was introduced. Since it let aggro decks keep printing value, and never runing out of fuel from hand. Back then , you either played midrange or aggro or combo , otk and control was just to slow
Nah, I think you guys are underestimating how many minions you lose per turn, and how few minions most of these infuse cards need. You don't need to run a token deck to take advantage of a lot of them, but some of them are certainly FOR token decks (like the Hunter legendary). But Door of Shadows for example REALLY doesn't need a token-heavy strategy to work. You just need to lose two minions.
For example Sinfueled Golem and Sire Denathrius that need a good build-up to become playable AND they also need to be on your hand to work will become unplayable, unfortunately. However, cards like Imp King Rafaam and Mischievous Imp will be far more playable, since they are cheaper and still decent to use without the infusion, while at the same time, due to their low mana cost, Infuse will have a bigger pay-off.
Finally there are Infuse cards that will either become unplayable or at least their Infuse won't be triggered as often as desired, due to the fact that they belong in a class that can't support swarmy decks, like Frozen Touch in Mage. On the other hand, then there are cards like Buffet Biggun that become playable due to the staple ability of the Paladin class to summon tokens, while having also a big pay-off.
Ehh... Denathrius doesn't take much to power him up. Even after 3 infuses, that's a huge board swing attached to a giant body. After 10 it's a Mask of C'thun attached to a 10/10 that heals you.
As to Icy Touch... I mean a 2 mana 3 damage spell is already good. And they literally introduced a whole mage archetype that involves spamming the board with minions. To say nothing of Naga mage or mech mage... which also flood the board with minions.
I am not underestimating the potential of Sire Denathrius, I just underestimate its ability to carry a deck to legend. It is not meta-defining, I would put it as playable. And then you have cards like Mutanus which nulify this card completely. So, even if you fetch it from your deck (in Druid decks for example) your opponent will know that you have him in hand. Which also means that if you're playing a proactive deck that summons minions, you won't be having more than 6 cards in hand so he has good chances in devouring him. Good card, love the art, I don't get excited though.
As for Frozen Touch, I think due to the nature of the Mage class you won't be able to pull of the Infuse in time. You may need to use it during turn 3-4 very often. So why not use frostbolt? Just saying.
I am not trying to underestimate it as a mechanic. But I think its applications will be limited to 1) Cards that work well without the Infusion and 2) Cards in specific classes and decks, where minion summoning is constant and drawing cards is also constant.
Most of the cards so far aren't good in aggro decks, at least most of them. so they mostly fit into a slower or midrange deck with early game boardprecence.
That just doesn't exist, or I should say it doesn't work.
Infuse legendary cards will fail... for the simple reason that you don't want to load your Starting hand with such Fatties, as they will ruin or mess up your Early-Midgame.
Infuse legendary cards will fail... for the simple reason that you don't want to load your Starting hand with such Fatties, as they will ruin or mess up your Early-Midgame.
Exactly. I have hard time to imagine mulligan for Infuse cards and the tokens necessary and not get run over by Murlocs etc.
Ehh... Denathrius doesn't take much to power him up. Even after 3 infuses, that's a huge board swing attached to a giant body. After 10 it's a Mask of C'thun attached to a 10/10 that heals you
On turn 10, 9 damage Arcane Missiles in nowhere near a "huge board swing".
Even on turn 7 Mask of C'thun is often unplayable because there are way too many stats on the opponent's board.
I think you vastly overestimate the power of "deal X damage randomly" in the late game, unless it's against a non-minion deck and then it just goes face, sure.
As usual, only druid will be able to abuse this mechanic beyond reason, with broken cards like scale of onyxia and guff.
The problem seems they are too many big investments infuse cards, not a lot of good Infuse (1) or Infuse (2)s. Thats where I think the mechanic can work, but these Infuse (5)s are too much
So far the biggest problem is we are seeing a LOT of infuse cards, all with big numbers, but we are missing all the fuel. Paladin is 100% going to use and abuse Infuse, because dudes are free, it has infinite minions. Shaman so far is going to either infuse or evolve, except for those times he uses a evolve card with infuse. Demon Hunter and druid are infusing since both have lots of tokens through varied means, like Scale of Onyxia and that 2/1 dude that summons felbats. However, is warrior going to infuse? Or mage? Or rogue? With neutral cards that get some tokens in line and allow infuse to grow, hardly, since many of those would already play spells and weapons, and just have a bunch of guys who are win conditions or dig for their win conditions.
Biggest winner because of the reliable source of infuses seems to be paladin, unless we are yet to see something that sets an obvious competition or something alike.
Only classes with godly amounts of tutor/draw power and/or lots of token generation will be able to make infuse really good, cuz GOD FORBID you ever get yourself in topdeck mode and you draw an infuse card, you lose the game on the spot.
The best ones are Druid, Warlock (with new insane imp draw engine) and Paladin with dude stuff.
Kinda fitting imo, the whole setting is about snobish arrogant rich people, makes sense the expansion keyword only favors the classes already favored (with card draw/tokens instead of money/cheap labor in this case). The work class minions being sacrificed for power-ups is just icing on the cake.
Ehh... Denathrius doesn't take much to power him up. Even after 3 infuses, that's a huge board swing attached to a giant body. After 10 it's a Mask of C'thun attached to a 10/10 that heals you
On turn 10, 9 damage Arcane Missiles in nowhere near a "huge board swing".
It's a large board swing because it heals you and probably destroys 1-2 minions. You're softening up their board and putting a 10/10 on the board. And that's not even a particularly big Denathrius. That's just the lowest total Denathrius has to be to not be a waste of time. Seriously if you're *that far behind* no 10 drop is going to save you except Deathwing and Denathrius shouldn't save you in that situation any more than WotOG C'thun would have.
Nah, I think you guys are underestimating how many minions you lose per turn, and how few minions most of these infuse cards need. You don't need to run a token deck to take advantage of a lot of them, but some of them are certainly FOR token decks (like the Hunter legendary). But Door of Shadows for example REALLY doesn't need a token-heavy strategy to work. You just need to lose two minions.
For example Sinfueled Golem and Sire Denathrius that need a good build-up to become playable AND they also need to be on your hand to work will become unplayable, unfortunately. However, cards like Imp King Rafaam and Mischievous Imp will be far more playable, since they are cheaper and still decent to use without the infusion, while at the same time, due to their low mana cost, Infuse will have a bigger pay-off.
Finally there are Infuse cards that will either become unplayable or at least their Infuse won't be triggered as often as desired, due to the fact that they belong in a class that can't support swarmy decks, like Frozen Touch in Mage. On the other hand, then there are cards like Buffet Biggun that become playable due to the staple ability of the Paladin class to summon tokens, while having also a big pay-off.
Ehh... Denathrius doesn't take much to power him up. Even after 3 infuses, that's a huge board swing attached to a giant body. After 10 it's a Mask of C'thun attached to a 10/10 that heals you.
As to Icy Touch... I mean a 2 mana 3 damage spell is already good. And they literally introduced a whole mage archetype that involves spamming the board with minions. To say nothing of Naga mage or mech mage... which also flood the board with minions.
I am not underestimating the potential of Sire Denathrius, I just underestimate its ability to carry a deck to legend. It is not meta-defining, I would put it as playable. And then you have cards like Mutanus which nulify this card completely. So, even if you fetch it from your deck (in Druid decks for example) your opponent will know that you have him in hand. Which also means that if you're playing a proactive deck that summons minions, you won't be having more than 6 cards in hand so he has good chances in devouring him. Good card, love the art, I don't get excited though.
As for Frozen Touch, I think due to the nature of the Mage class you won't be able to pull of the Infuse in time. You may need to use it during turn 3-4 very often. So why not use frostbolt? Just saying.
I am not trying to underestimate it as a mechanic. But I think its applications will be limited to 1) Cards that work well without the Infusion and 2) Cards in specific classes and decks, where minion summoning is constant and drawing cards is also constant.
Every 7+ cost minion is potentially nullified by Mutanus.
Frostbolt isn't in Standard, and even if it was you only need to lose 3 minions to proc Icy Touch. That's not a lot of minions. Mech and Naga mage often summon that many minions in a single turn. And if you proc it even *once* that's value. And if you need it on turn 2 to destroy a Trogg or a Mecha-Shark then you have it on turn 2 to destroy a Trogg or Mecha-Shark. Like I said, 2 mana deal 3 is already good.
Yes, a 10 drop is going to go in a control deck, which either holds cards for a long time or has a lot of card draw. Every deck summons minions. Most decks summon *at least* 1-2 minions most turns, if they don't the card isn't good. That's kinda the point of infuse, though. Summon minions. Don't just sit back and clear.
I think denathrius won’t be for every class and strategy but like people said, paladins warlocks and druids will love him. I am most worried for him in shaman. Infuse changes the cards similar to corrupt. Therefore, even a denathrius with only five minions infusing him makes ten random damage that can be repeated with the parrot. Bolner or brann and the parrot is terrifying, there is straight otk potential here.
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...because it bottlenecks deckbuilding, or it makes it so that the best decks to build for all of these cards will be aggro/small minion type decks which I don't think is good for diversity within the game.
Even the less successful/effective keywords like Honorable Kill or Frenzy or Corrupt could all still see play in all types of decks, and really when you look back, I don't think there has ever been a keyword that targets a certain build type so narrowly. All the others (Spellburst, Echo, Rush, Dredge, Twinspell, Tradeable, etc) are versatile in one way or another. Not to be a negative nancy, but I have my doubts right now. Thoughts?
Most of the cards so far aren't good in aggro decks, at least most of them. so they mostly fit into a slower or midrange deck with early game boardprecence.
I don't think infuse will be bad per se, but only some easily infusable cards will see play.
For example Sinfueled Golem and Sire Denathrius that need a good build-up to become playable AND they also need to be on your hand to work will become unplayable, unfortunately. However, cards like Imp King Rafaam and Mischievous Imp will be far more playable, since they are cheaper and still decent to use without the infusion, while at the same time, due to their low mana cost, Infuse will have a bigger pay-off.
Finally there are Infuse cards that will either become unplayable or at least their Infuse won't be triggered as often as desired, due to the fact that they belong in a class that can't support swarmy decks, like Frozen Touch in Mage. On the other hand, then there are cards like Buffet Biggun that become playable due to the staple ability of the Paladin class to summon tokens, while having also a big pay-off.
All in all, I think Infuse will have its role in Hearthstone's history, it's just that cards like Sire Denathrius will be far more difficult to give a decent pay-off.
I think the problem is mainly that you need to have these Infuse cards in your hand AND have cards you can play to up the infuse count. You can;t have just infuse cards or just cards that die in your hand, you need BOTH.
What I suspect is that classes that have more draw and generation in their arsenal will be able to better keep the flow of cards going and get the correct cards in hand if they do not initially have the correct cards in hand.
So some classes will have a definite benefit with this key word compared to others, and that might be a problem.
I will say this though, the pattern of the last 2 expansions has been clear that they want to encourage people to play balanced decks with both minions and spells. The Nagas from Sunken City combined minions with spell afinity and Infuse forces you to have minions that die. This is definitely a healthier approach then the middle of last year (Stormwind and its Tradeable and Quests). So whatever happens with this meta it will be less polarizing then the meta a year ago. And that's in part due to Infuse.
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Right now the only infuse cards I see working out are the warlock ones since it's relatively easy to board vomit with zoo and get the 4 mana 9/9 infuse blowout on turn 4 if it was kept in your hand, plus with life tap you won't just lose once you vomit your hand and get stuck with nothing after playing it.
That being said if any control infuse cards get printed we have to remember Scale of Onyxia and Expendable Performers are in the game, easily infusing anything. You might be able to use Sire Denathrius off of just a 2x scale package - that's a 19 damage lifesteal avenging wrath right there.
Nah, I think you guys are underestimating how many minions you lose per turn, and how few minions most of these infuse cards need. You don't need to run a token deck to take advantage of a lot of them, but some of them are certainly FOR token decks (like the Hunter legendary). But Door of Shadows for example REALLY doesn't need a token-heavy strategy to work. You just need to lose two minions.
Ehh... Denathrius doesn't take much to power him up. Even after 3 infuses, that's a huge board swing attached to a giant body. After 10 it's a Mask of C'thun attached to a 10/10 that heals you.
As to Icy Touch... I mean a 2 mana 3 damage spell is already good. And they literally introduced a whole mage archetype that involves spamming the board with minions. To say nothing of Naga mage or mech mage... which also flood the board with minions.
I agree to some degree.
What bothers me is that druid is the unrivaled king of infuse by default. Most classes have no way to tutor anything infuse related.
I realy hope we'll see a neutral 3-4 mana minion with "discover a infuse card from your deck"
@AWT "...because it bottlenecks deckbuilding, or it makes it so that the best decks to build for all of these cards will be aggro/small minion type decks which I don't think is good for diversity within the game."
This is untrue , it targets zoo/token decks, or decks that summon multiple minions .The infuse mechanic at first glance should have a better synergy with paladin/shaman/druid/warlock , since these decks generate tokens or have flood board spells. Now all 4 of these classes always had control decks, so it dosn't neceserly target Agro. We would be in a world of pain, if it took of in demon hunter,rouge,hunter ...
Another mentionable note is the mana cost,till now lowest infuse cards were 4 mana , and majority around 7 mana , if aggro run's a 7 mana card , they will never keep it in muligan and when they draw it, they expect it to have imediate impact using it as a finisher card, the infuse mechanic is the total opposite of this. Example Huntsman Altimor this card looks very solid ,arguable 1 of the better legendarys and infuse cards ,if you get even 2 companions for 7 mana thats ridiculous value and totaly worth it,but this card will shine in Beast Hunter(which is a midrange deck curently) not an aggro version since it needs build up when drawn.
PS: @AWT "All the others (Spellburst, Echo, Rush, Dredge, Twinspell, Tradeable, etc) are versatile in one way or another." . This is again untrue, we had one of the worst aggro meta, when discover mechanic was introduced. Since it let aggro decks keep printing value, and never runing out of fuel from hand. Back then , you either played midrange or aggro or combo , otk and control was just to slow
So don't worry the meta will be fine.
I am not underestimating the potential of Sire Denathrius, I just underestimate its ability to carry a deck to legend. It is not meta-defining, I would put it as playable. And then you have cards like Mutanus which nulify this card completely. So, even if you fetch it from your deck (in Druid decks for example) your opponent will know that you have him in hand. Which also means that if you're playing a proactive deck that summons minions, you won't be having more than 6 cards in hand so he has good chances in devouring him. Good card, love the art, I don't get excited though.
As for Frozen Touch, I think due to the nature of the Mage class you won't be able to pull of the Infuse in time. You may need to use it during turn 3-4 very often. So why not use frostbolt? Just saying.
I am not trying to underestimate it as a mechanic. But I think its applications will be limited to 1) Cards that work well without the Infusion and 2) Cards in specific classes and decks, where minion summoning is constant and drawing cards is also constant.
That just doesn't exist, or I should say it doesn't work.
Infuse legendary cards will fail... for the simple reason that you don't want to load your Starting hand with such Fatties, as they will ruin or mess up your Early-Midgame.
Exactly. I have hard time to imagine mulligan for Infuse cards and the tokens necessary and not get run over by Murlocs etc.
On turn 10, 9 damage Arcane Missiles in nowhere near a "huge board swing".
Even on turn 7 Mask of C'thun is often unplayable because there are way too many stats on the opponent's board.
I think you vastly overestimate the power of "deal X damage randomly" in the late game, unless it's against a non-minion deck and then it just goes face, sure.
As usual, only druid will be able to abuse this mechanic beyond reason, with broken cards like scale of onyxia and guff.
The problem seems they are too many big investments infuse cards, not a lot of good Infuse (1) or Infuse (2)s. Thats where I think the mechanic can work, but these Infuse (5)s are too much
10 drops need to win the game, not heal you for 8 and deal a bit of damage. prop needs to do like 15+ damage.
So far the biggest problem is we are seeing a LOT of infuse cards, all with big numbers, but we are missing all the fuel. Paladin is 100% going to use and abuse Infuse, because dudes are free, it has infinite minions. Shaman so far is going to either infuse or evolve, except for those times he uses a evolve card with infuse. Demon Hunter and druid are infusing since both have lots of tokens through varied means, like Scale of Onyxia and that 2/1 dude that summons felbats. However, is warrior going to infuse? Or mage? Or rogue? With neutral cards that get some tokens in line and allow infuse to grow, hardly, since many of those would already play spells and weapons, and just have a bunch of guys who are win conditions or dig for their win conditions.
Biggest winner because of the reliable source of infuses seems to be paladin, unless we are yet to see something that sets an obvious competition or something alike.
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Only classes with godly amounts of tutor/draw power and/or lots of token generation will be able to make infuse really good, cuz GOD FORBID you ever get yourself in topdeck mode and you draw an infuse card, you lose the game on the spot.
The best ones are Druid, Warlock (with new insane imp draw engine) and Paladin with dude stuff.
Kinda fitting imo, the whole setting is about snobish arrogant rich people, makes sense the expansion keyword only favors the classes already favored (with card draw/tokens instead of money/cheap labor in this case). The work class minions being sacrificed for power-ups is just icing on the cake.
It's a large board swing because it heals you and probably destroys 1-2 minions. You're softening up their board and putting a 10/10 on the board. And that's not even a particularly big Denathrius. That's just the lowest total Denathrius has to be to not be a waste of time. Seriously if you're *that far behind* no 10 drop is going to save you except Deathwing and Denathrius shouldn't save you in that situation any more than WotOG C'thun would have.
Every 7+ cost minion is potentially nullified by Mutanus.
Frostbolt isn't in Standard, and even if it was you only need to lose 3 minions to proc Icy Touch. That's not a lot of minions. Mech and Naga mage often summon that many minions in a single turn. And if you proc it even *once* that's value. And if you need it on turn 2 to destroy a Trogg or a Mecha-Shark then you have it on turn 2 to destroy a Trogg or Mecha-Shark. Like I said, 2 mana deal 3 is already good.
Yes, a 10 drop is going to go in a control deck, which either holds cards for a long time or has a lot of card draw. Every deck summons minions. Most decks summon *at least* 1-2 minions most turns, if they don't the card isn't good. That's kinda the point of infuse, though. Summon minions. Don't just sit back and clear.
I think denathrius won’t be for every class and strategy but like people said, paladins warlocks and druids will love him. I am most worried for him in shaman. Infuse changes the cards similar to corrupt. Therefore, even a denathrius with only five minions infusing him makes ten random damage that can be repeated with the parrot. Bolner or brann and the parrot is terrifying, there is straight otk potential here.