Rng(essential in HS) is fun BUT it has a limit, and one of those limits is mana cheating. Litterally nowadays meta is manacheating.
hunter, plays big beats in turn 4-5= unfair
Rogue, knoll in early for 0-2 mana = unfair
Mage, 9 o 10 cost spells in turn 5-6, WHAT? Its not fun to do your plays when you now that next turn your opponents plays his rng wincondition that most of times freezes your field, destroys it, summon dragons, deals damage, etc.
Eventhoug its not broken it kills the entire fun of anyone that doesnt plays mage.
It comes down now who can use the most disruption ( boar priest, curse warlock, Mutanus, shaman, constant freeze), highroll (mage, rogue), big minions on early turns (hunter ), burst from hand ( DH, paladin)
The goal kinda is not to win by trading, smart plays, reading your opponents hand.
You either hope for RNG, burst your opponent or prevent their win conditions with disruption.
Look, every class can play around Vandarr and that one of win conditions, manacheating? Thats only mechanic to which the silver ranked player isnt accustomed to play
How much more fun is playing 1/1 turn 1, 2/3 turn 2, 3/3 turn 3, 4/5 turn 4, right?
Playing 6 mana spell turn 6, 10 mana spell with 10 mana.
That was Vanilla, you have to make so changes if you want ppl to keep playing the game..
It is fun, because it means that the game is more reliable, and therefore can be understood better by both players, who therefore have to try and outplay/outsmart each other, which feels more engaging, interesting and rewarding. Saying things have to be super widely swung around in random ways to be fun is like saying that chess is the most boring game in the world because there's no randomness in it.
Randomness can be fun and create funny and memorable situations, but when next to every deck relies on randomness to win, it makes for games like the ones you have against thief rogue: - Mulligan is skewed because you didn't have any way of guessing what kind of deck you'd be fighting (so now everyone has to account for potential rogue in every mulligan, which is kind of a ridiculous effect for one class to have on all the others). - You can literally never play around anything at all because that would mean playing around every possible available card in the entire game every turn. - You could be playing very well, having interesting trades with the opponent and a decently well paced game, and then all of a sudden they pull out Colaque from a random card generator and replay it every turn, completely shutting down any answer you could even hope to have, and nothing at all could have prevented or signaled this from happening.
But beyond all of this, because granted, this can still be fun if that's the kind of games you like to play, the worst part of this, on which i absolutely agree with OP, is the fact that most current decks, and this kind of general philosophy in general, makes it so games are usually only fun for one of the two players. One player will have lots of fun, pulling out huge Snowfall Guardian every single turn, constantly bringing back something similar every time the opponent manages to remove it, but the opponent in that time is just left with never being able to do anything at all. Summon minions -> can never use them, they just stay stuck on the board and might as well be dormant. Spells -> inadequate for big minions, or just simply not enough unless you're a warlock. You just end up unable to play. That's the exact same for big spell mages, who not only can pull out ridiculous amounts of mana for ridiculously cheap at random, but in the process can also freeze you completely, make your cards and spells unplayably expensive, and shut you down with gigantic minions on top of it all.
The problem isn't so much how random things are (though it is, too), it's how most of the decks, most of the meta and in general most of the current design philosophy, relies around making the game fun for only one player, while extremely frustrating and unsatisfying for the opponent. Even wins can be extremely unpleasant because of how tedious it was to get through that game. Old HS was, more often than not (looking at you, face hunter), enjoyable for both parties during the game, precisely because of the reliable nature of it.
My all time favourite deck will be my "Trio" deck featuring the Ascendant Scroll Quest, Deck of Lunacy and TAR (Evo and C'thun/Yogg didn't drop, you see). Wr was like 45% and I really only won consistently against Priests and Druid, Lock or Warrior depended on how I played around my randomly but mostly useless cards (Barrens wasn't out yet.) and surviving long enough to play Yogg Box and hero card then proceed to pray it didn't overdraw me with fatigue with skull, hand, overflow, nourish, ai....
The friend requests I got when I did win where worth being D, Hunter, and Rogues punching box.
Tl;dr — I love rng mage, never change it. I have fun playing it and chuckling when I lose to it, for I know that all in all? That was probably the first win the player had with their deck in like 5 games.
My all time favourite deck will be my "Trio" deck featuring the Ascendant Scroll Quest, Deck of Lunacy and TAR (Evo and C'thun/Yogg didn't drop, you see). Wr was like 45% and I really only won consistently against Priests and Druid, Lock or Warrior depended on how I played around my randomly but mostly useless cards (Barrens wasn't out yet.) and surviving long enough to play Yogg Box and hero card then proceed to pray it didn't overdraw me with fatigue with skull, hand, overflow, nourish, ai....
The friend requests I got when I did win where worth being D, Hunter, and Rogues punching box.
Tl;dr — I love rng mage, never change it. I have fun playing it and chuckling when I lose to it, for I know that all in all? That was probably the first win the player had with their deck in like 5 games.
That's a perfectly valid point and example; the issue is that here OP isn't talking about a gimmicky fun deck that just farts funny things all over, they're talking about a deck that's literally currently tier 1 and played by, in my recent tracked experience, about literally 32% of players in D10. That's still a random mage deck, but that also happens to be incredibly hard to beat even when their big random spells get mediocre rng.
I just got a game a couple minutes ago where they played a 5 mana "20 mana worth of spells" card that did almost nothing but secrets and minion spells on an empty board, then a discounted "summon 2 dragons" for a 4/5 and 5/5 and then another 20 mana for pretty much no effect again, and they still won because in between those, they kept me entirely locked frozen, taunted, hero powered for 4 damage and they slowly killed me with just general chip damage. *That* isn't a "fun gimmicky deck", and is unfortunately by far not the only deck to feel like that when played against in standard rn.
The game cannot satisfy all the audience. There is always a few classes being the powerhouse, waiting for the complaints to get nerfed. And the cycle continues like that. Mage & Hunter are probably on the nerf radar next, then Warlock & Priest might rise to get hated, and so on...
I'm not having too much fun with this deck, Rune of the Archmage is an extremely frustrating card. It should prioritize casting offensive spells until no minions left on the opponents board.
It casts TWENTY mana worth of MAGE spells while prioritizing ENEMIES. For 5 mana quite often. Your request is bonkers. I'm already wishing for them to reprint Glacial Mysteries and the like next set just to make Rune worse.
It does go to point out what is the signature of this meta. It is diverse enough right now, but the high variance in a lot of these scams is back breaking. Hunter plays a Hydralodon on 4 sometimes which can be bonkers, or gets it out from sunken saber which does nothing on that turn. Mage might go runes and clear board and develop dragons too, or might spam the same secret, not only wasting mana but also telling you what it is. Desperate rogue might roll a Behemoth from the queen which they will proceed to shadowstep and stash a bunch of times, or get the now-trashy Nellie and get wrecked soon after. Jackpot is pretty much the description for a lot of this meta, you could get a flamestrike when you need it, or two bloody Seals of summoning.
I got triple legend this month for the first time, but screw this meta. Naga priest with a 4-12 radiant on turn 5 and a 7-17 or something on turn 7-8. Next game a quest priest playing four maelstroms in the same game, and so on and on.
Good luck playing around Rune of the Archmage on turn 6 if you don't have Okani or the like.
Do we still remember Quest Spell Mage meta last year? It was more frustrating and many cards (the Draw 2 cards, the Reduce Cost of Spells on Hand, and the Quest, etc.) got multiple nerfs.
ofc Mage is known for Spells, but how can we imagine the world where the classes can compete without mana reduction / cheating?
Do we still remember Quest Spell Mage meta last year? It was more frustrating and many cards (the Draw 2 cards, the Reduce Cost of Spells on Hand, and the Quest, etc.) got multiple nerfs.
ofc Mage is known for Spells, but how can we imagine the world where the classes can compete without mana reduction / cheating?
Yeah, in comparison with Quest Mage, Big Spells is a joke. It might be an unreliable russian roulette, but at least it was unreliable, unlike "turn 5 quest complete, turn 6 you're dead by Ignition".
This level of RnG frustration reminds me of Yogg Saron meta back in 2016. If Big Spell Mage ever becomes competitive in the Tournament scene, it will become a joke in Hearthstone and def bring attention to Blizz for the hammer nerf. Rune of the Archmage should let the spells to hit on both sides to reduce its consistency.
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Thats it, theres nothing else to say about.
Rng(essential in HS) is fun BUT it has a limit, and one of those limits is mana cheating. Litterally nowadays meta is manacheating.
hunter, plays big beats in turn 4-5= unfair
Rogue, knoll in early for 0-2 mana = unfair
Mage, 9 o 10 cost spells in turn 5-6, WHAT? Its not fun to do your plays when you now that next turn your opponents plays his rng wincondition that most of times freezes your field, destroys it, summon dragons, deals damage, etc.
Eventhoug its not broken it kills the entire fun of anyone that doesnt plays mage.
It's been like this for a while, my friend.
It comes down now who can use the most disruption ( boar priest, curse warlock, Mutanus, shaman, constant freeze), highroll (mage, rogue), big minions on early turns (hunter ), burst from hand ( DH, paladin)
The goal kinda is not to win by trading, smart plays, reading your opponents hand.
You either hope for RNG, burst your opponent or prevent their win conditions with disruption.
it's MAD I tell you, MAD!
How much more fun is playing 1/1 turn 1, 2/3 turn 2, 3/3 turn 3, 4/5 turn 4, right?
Playing 6 mana spell turn 6, 10 mana spell with 10 mana.
That was Vanilla, you have to make so changes if you want ppl to keep playing the game..
Look, every class can play around Vandarr and that one of win conditions, manacheating? Thats only mechanic to which the silver ranked player isnt accustomed to play
It is fun, because it means that the game is more reliable, and therefore can be understood better by both players, who therefore have to try and outplay/outsmart each other, which feels more engaging, interesting and rewarding.
Saying things have to be super widely swung around in random ways to be fun is like saying that chess is the most boring game in the world because there's no randomness in it.
Randomness can be fun and create funny and memorable situations, but when next to every deck relies on randomness to win, it makes for games like the ones you have against thief rogue:
- Mulligan is skewed because you didn't have any way of guessing what kind of deck you'd be fighting (so now everyone has to account for potential rogue in every mulligan, which is kind of a ridiculous effect for one class to have on all the others).
- You can literally never play around anything at all because that would mean playing around every possible available card in the entire game every turn.
- You could be playing very well, having interesting trades with the opponent and a decently well paced game, and then all of a sudden they pull out Colaque from a random card generator and replay it every turn, completely shutting down any answer you could even hope to have, and nothing at all could have prevented or signaled this from happening.
But beyond all of this, because granted, this can still be fun if that's the kind of games you like to play, the worst part of this, on which i absolutely agree with OP, is the fact that most current decks, and this kind of general philosophy in general, makes it so games are usually only fun for one of the two players.
One player will have lots of fun, pulling out huge Snowfall Guardian every single turn, constantly bringing back something similar every time the opponent manages to remove it, but the opponent in that time is just left with never being able to do anything at all. Summon minions -> can never use them, they just stay stuck on the board and might as well be dormant. Spells -> inadequate for big minions, or just simply not enough unless you're a warlock.
You just end up unable to play.
That's the exact same for big spell mages, who not only can pull out ridiculous amounts of mana for ridiculously cheap at random, but in the process can also freeze you completely, make your cards and spells unplayably expensive, and shut you down with gigantic minions on top of it all.
The problem isn't so much how random things are (though it is, too), it's how most of the decks, most of the meta and in general most of the current design philosophy, relies around making the game fun for only one player, while extremely frustrating and unsatisfying for the opponent. Even wins can be extremely unpleasant because of how tedious it was to get through that game.
Old HS was, more often than not (looking at you, face hunter), enjoyable for both parties during the game, precisely because of the reliable nature of it.
Hearthstone hasn't been fun in years. Team 5 killed it dead.
My all time favourite deck will be my "Trio" deck featuring the Ascendant Scroll Quest, Deck of Lunacy and TAR (Evo and C'thun/Yogg didn't drop, you see). Wr was like 45% and I really only won consistently against Priests and Druid, Lock or Warrior depended on how I played around my randomly but mostly useless cards (Barrens wasn't out yet.) and surviving long enough to play Yogg Box and hero card then proceed to pray it didn't overdraw me with fatigue with skull, hand, overflow, nourish, ai....
The friend requests I got when I did win where worth being D, Hunter, and Rogues punching box.
Tl;dr — I love rng mage, never change it. I have fun playing it and chuckling when I lose to it, for I know that all in all? That was probably the first win the player had with their deck in like 5 games.
That's a perfectly valid point and example; the issue is that here OP isn't talking about a gimmicky fun deck that just farts funny things all over, they're talking about a deck that's literally currently tier 1 and played by, in my recent tracked experience, about literally 32% of players in D10. That's still a random mage deck, but that also happens to be incredibly hard to beat even when their big random spells get mediocre rng.
I just got a game a couple minutes ago where they played a 5 mana "20 mana worth of spells" card that did almost nothing but secrets and minion spells on an empty board, then a discounted "summon 2 dragons" for a 4/5 and 5/5 and then another 20 mana for pretty much no effect again, and they still won because in between those, they kept me entirely locked frozen, taunted, hero powered for 4 damage and they slowly killed me with just general chip damage. *That* isn't a "fun gimmicky deck", and is unfortunately by far not the only deck to feel like that when played against in standard rn.
The game cannot satisfy all the audience. There is always a few classes being the powerhouse, waiting for the complaints to get nerfed. And the cycle continues like that. Mage & Hunter are probably on the nerf radar next, then Warlock & Priest might rise to get hated, and so on...
This interaction is so stupid, it totally locks you from holding any spells in hand.
I'm not having too much fun with this deck, Rune of the Archmage is an extremely frustrating card. It should prioritize casting offensive spells until no minions left on the opponents board.
Barbaric sorceress is fun though.
It casts TWENTY mana worth of MAGE spells while prioritizing ENEMIES. For 5 mana quite often. Your request is bonkers. I'm already wishing for them to reprint Glacial Mysteries and the like next set just to make Rune worse.
It does go to point out what is the signature of this meta. It is diverse enough right now, but the high variance in a lot of these scams is back breaking. Hunter plays a Hydralodon on 4 sometimes which can be bonkers, or gets it out from sunken saber which does nothing on that turn. Mage might go runes and clear board and develop dragons too, or might spam the same secret, not only wasting mana but also telling you what it is. Desperate rogue might roll a Behemoth from the queen which they will proceed to shadowstep and stash a bunch of times, or get the now-trashy Nellie and get wrecked soon after. Jackpot is pretty much the description for a lot of this meta, you could get a flamestrike when you need it, or two bloody Seals of summoning.
I got triple legend this month for the first time, but screw this meta. Naga priest with a 4-12 radiant on turn 5 and a 7-17 or something on turn 7-8. Next game a quest priest playing four maelstroms in the same game, and so on and on.
Good luck playing around Rune of the Archmage on turn 6 if you don't have Okani or the like.
cry more man
Mage has been fucking clown class for a while now. Even secret mage was more fun to play against. Now it's just random into random into random
Do we still remember Quest Spell Mage meta last year? It was more frustrating and many cards (the Draw 2 cards, the Reduce Cost of Spells on Hand, and the Quest, etc.) got multiple nerfs.
ofc Mage is known for Spells, but how can we imagine the world where the classes can compete without mana reduction / cheating?
It is fun. Still there are quite a few better and faster decks, so don't worry.
Yeah, in comparison with Quest Mage, Big Spells is a joke. It might be an unreliable russian roulette, but at least it was unreliable, unlike "turn 5 quest complete, turn 6 you're dead by Ignition".
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Mage is by far the stupidest shit to play against feels like slot machine machine the keyword random is a big issue with mage currently
This level of RnG frustration reminds me of Yogg Saron meta back in 2016. If Big Spell Mage ever becomes competitive in the Tournament scene, it will become a joke in Hearthstone and def bring attention to Blizz for the hammer nerf. Rune of the Archmage should let the spells to hit on both sides to reduce its consistency.