The death knight cards were cool for awhile but these new hero cards to me just seem too broken. I mean the old ones were good but they weren't crazy like all of the new ones are now. It feels like every good deck nowadays has either the hero card of the class in it or the quest of the class and that we're gonna keep rotating between broken quest/hero card until they're ALL nerfed. What do you guys think?
Were you around during Knights of the Frozen Throne? Bloodreaver Guldan and Deathstalker Rexxar shaped the meta a lot. Thrall, Deathseer was a staple in every single evolve shaman deck (a big thing back then) and Shadowreaper Anduin had been oppressive in both standard and wild for a while. And let's not even talk about Un'Goro and the quests, with Time Warp for mage and Fire Plume's Heart for warrior, just off the top of my head. Even for a time where cards were weaker, those cards I mentioned did shape or impact the meta in multiple ways.
Funny. I had exactly your opinion during Frozen throne, where death knights absolutely ruled the game (together with Keleseth). Rexxar was a one card deck (said Kibler), Anduin broke the meta until nerf, then about 45% of all decks had Malfurion the pestilent (not even making this up).
Today the heroes are also really powerful, but I think they are relatively weaker, since minions got power crept more. Many are auto include cards in late game friendly decks, but that's also a reflection of the meta itself. The death knights were so polarizing that only a relative few would be popular at the same time. That we right now don't have a lot of options without heroes is a shame thou, maybe we need a new keleseth ;)
As for quests. I think both first and third generation of quest were too polarizing and influential. Uldum had the right balance between work and reward...
I'm not a fan of hero cards or quests. Too gimmicky, plus most of the quests are devastatingly unbalanced and just plain not interesting or fun. Makes for boring gameplay.
I hate questlines and quests. Its too strong win conditions. I somewhat like heroes, but they should not be so impactful. These new hero does too many things when played.
Were you around during Knights of the Frozen Throne? Bloodreaver Guldan and Deathstalker Rexxar shaped the meta a lot. Thrall, Deathseer was a staple in every single evolve shaman deck (a big thing back then) and Shadowreaper Anduin had been oppressive in both standard and wild for a while. And let's not even talk about Un'Goro and the quests, with Time Warp for mage and Fire Plume's Heart for warrior, just off the top of my head. Even for a time where cards were weaker, those cards I mentioned did shape or impact the meta in multiple ways.
In my memory Thrall DK has never seen played, maybe i'm wrong but even in the KOTFT expension I never saw it played as much as Guldan, Anduin or just Rexxar/Jaina
It feels like every good deck nowadays has either the hero card of the class in it or the quest of the class [...]
Two of the four live expansions were about Hero cards and Quests. So decks will run those, either because they are good or because no better cards are available.
The only hero card I dislike conceptually is Dawngrasp, because of the hero power eventually turning into a 2-mana pyroblast. Others like Guff are overtuned, but I don't hate their design in isolation. Kurtrus is right on the edge because of the interaction with Rush, but I think it's ultimately fine.
Questlines on the other hand have a lot of awful ones. I don't like to see inevitability on cards, especially those that bypass the typical weaknesses of OTKs: having to sacrifice tempo, being weak to hand/deck disruption, and fizzling out after one big combo turn.
I much rather prefer when slow decks rely on cards like N'Zoth to win. Big minions that give you either tons of tempo or tons of value, but that ultimately can be dealt with and hence can't reliably end games on their own, creating more variety than losing to a quest in the exact same way for the hundredth time.
In my memory Thrall DK has never seen played, maybe i'm wrong but even in the KOTFT expension I never saw it played as much as Guldan, Anduin or just Rexxar/Jaina
I think "never seen play" is plain wrong, maybe you could say that for Scourgelord Garrosh being the weakest and least used Death Knight hero card, but Thrall's DK was, as I said, a staple in any deck that played around tokens/evolve. Evolve Shamans were not a Tier 1 deck, maybe for one expansion, but still used. Valeera was a good card in Mill Rogue and Uther created the OTK Exodia hero power deck (albeit still weak and underplayed). My point was that OP is completely wrong saying that the old hero cards/quest were never used. Maybe they look weak now compared to the newer ones, but back then those cards did shape the meta, especially the Death Knights.
Maybe the only quests that didn't impact enough were the Uldum ones, but most of them had niche rewards that worked only with one specific deck. Maybe just Corrupt the Waters and Untapped Potential were impactful enough to be remembered, followed by Activate the Obelisk. The others were borderline playable (Warlock, Mage, Rogue, Paladin)/downright bad or too weak to compete (Hunter, Warrior)
About death knights? they well broken but they were also far more interesting on that moment. Quest in other hand...i feel like Quest are only fine in terms of gameplay when they align with very limited deck building requeriments. In all the other scenarios quest have been prove to be very bad for the meta just super tempo-minion generation cards like mech mage. Quest are just anti-control mechanic that were Fine at some degree when they were introduce and they used to be WAAAAYYY more restrictive in those times (and even so they were pretty powerful still, some of them toooooo powerful).
The problem in general is that Hero card and Quest cards Keep becoming more rewarding or less restrictive making them literally "not a dead card in your deck for most of the game" as they were intended to be in first place. When you build pirate warrior quest for example, if you remove the sub-rewards, the difference between the actual gameplay of the deck right now and that would be heaven to hell, same for all the other current rewards. Prove of that? look and Priest quest which has the worse sub-rewards and is also in a class that lack of hyper tempo cards. With both of those checks you will see how a Quest will work normally if they were made properly.
Quest Should NOT reward the players for playing the deck until they are fully complete. You are given someone for playing a mana card that is probably worth 6 mana or more. Thats is very destructive for decks that work on curve (not like there is a lot of this in reality right now). Also Quest make other quest worse depending of the sub-reward value at the point that one quest is not just "weaker" but unplayable in most cases.
I don't mind hero cards, I just wish they would bin the armour gain part of the cards. 5 might not sound like much, but its amazing how often that extra 5 health stops you from winning/losing.
I could understand with the DK because most of them were slower cards, but thats just not the case with the new ones
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The death knight cards were cool for awhile but these new hero cards to me just seem too broken. I mean the old ones were good but they weren't crazy like all of the new ones are now. It feels like every good deck nowadays has either the hero card of the class in it or the quest of the class and that we're gonna keep rotating between broken quest/hero card until they're ALL nerfed. What do you guys think?
I'm sorry- what?
Were you around during Knights of the Frozen Throne? Bloodreaver Guldan and Deathstalker Rexxar shaped the meta a lot. Thrall, Deathseer was a staple in every single evolve shaman deck (a big thing back then) and Shadowreaper Anduin had been oppressive in both standard and wild for a while. And let's not even talk about Un'Goro and the quests, with Time Warp for mage and Fire Plume's Heart for warrior, just off the top of my head. Even for a time where cards were weaker, those cards I mentioned did shape or impact the meta in multiple ways.
or both :)
agreed. its fun and cool to play with overpowered hero/quest, until everyone plays them and there is no more other viable alternative.
quest hunter, cariel, guff, quest hunter, guff, guff, cariel, pirates, quest hunter, cariel, pirates, guff, quest hunt.... ok ill go check another game.
"Woow..."
Funny. I had exactly your opinion during Frozen throne, where death knights absolutely ruled the game (together with Keleseth). Rexxar was a one card deck (said Kibler), Anduin broke the meta until nerf, then about 45% of all decks had Malfurion the pestilent (not even making this up).
Today the heroes are also really powerful, but I think they are relatively weaker, since minions got power crept more. Many are auto include cards in late game friendly decks, but that's also a reflection of the meta itself. The death knights were so polarizing that only a relative few would be popular at the same time. That we right now don't have a lot of options without heroes is a shame thou, maybe we need a new keleseth ;)
As for quests. I think both first and third generation of quest were too polarizing and influential. Uldum had the right balance between work and reward...
I'm not a fan of hero cards or quests. Too gimmicky, plus most of the quests are devastatingly unbalanced and just plain not interesting or fun. Makes for boring gameplay.
I hate questlines and quests. Its too strong win conditions. I somewhat like heroes, but they should not be so impactful. These new hero does too many things when played.
In my memory Thrall DK has never seen played, maybe i'm wrong but even in the KOTFT expension I never saw it played as much as Guldan, Anduin or just Rexxar/Jaina
Two of the four live expansions were about Hero cards and Quests. So decks will run those, either because they are good or because no better cards are available.
The only hero card I dislike conceptually is Dawngrasp, because of the hero power eventually turning into a 2-mana pyroblast. Others like Guff are overtuned, but I don't hate their design in isolation. Kurtrus is right on the edge because of the interaction with Rush, but I think it's ultimately fine.
Questlines on the other hand have a lot of awful ones. I don't like to see inevitability on cards, especially those that bypass the typical weaknesses of OTKs: having to sacrifice tempo, being weak to hand/deck disruption, and fizzling out after one big combo turn.
I much rather prefer when slow decks rely on cards like N'Zoth to win. Big minions that give you either tons of tempo or tons of value, but that ultimately can be dealt with and hence can't reliably end games on their own, creating more variety than losing to a quest in the exact same way for the hundredth time.
Well said.
I think "never seen play" is plain wrong, maybe you could say that for Scourgelord Garrosh being the weakest and least used Death Knight hero card, but Thrall's DK was, as I said, a staple in any deck that played around tokens/evolve. Evolve Shamans were not a Tier 1 deck, maybe for one expansion, but still used. Valeera was a good card in Mill Rogue and Uther created the OTK Exodia hero power deck (albeit still weak and underplayed). My point was that OP is completely wrong saying that the old hero cards/quest were never used. Maybe they look weak now compared to the newer ones, but back then those cards did shape the meta, especially the Death Knights.
Maybe the only quests that didn't impact enough were the Uldum ones, but most of them had niche rewards that worked only with one specific deck. Maybe just Corrupt the Waters and Untapped Potential were impactful enough to be remembered, followed by Activate the Obelisk. The others were borderline playable (Warlock, Mage, Rogue, Paladin)/downright bad or too weak to compete (Hunter, Warrior)
to answer your question, no, probably just you
About death knights? they well broken but they were also far more interesting on that moment. Quest in other hand...i feel like Quest are only fine in terms of gameplay when they align with very limited deck building requeriments. In all the other scenarios quest have been prove to be very bad for the meta just super tempo-minion generation cards like mech mage. Quest are just anti-control mechanic that were Fine at some degree when they were introduce and they used to be WAAAAYYY more restrictive in those times (and even so they were pretty powerful still, some of them toooooo powerful).
The problem in general is that Hero card and Quest cards Keep becoming more rewarding or less restrictive making them literally "not a dead card in your deck for most of the game" as they were intended to be in first place. When you build pirate warrior quest for example, if you remove the sub-rewards, the difference between the actual gameplay of the deck right now and that would be heaven to hell, same for all the other current rewards. Prove of that? look and Priest quest which has the worse sub-rewards and is also in a class that lack of hyper tempo cards. With both of those checks you will see how a Quest will work normally if they were made properly.
Quest Should NOT reward the players for playing the deck until they are fully complete. You are given someone for playing a mana card that is probably worth 6 mana or more. Thats is very destructive for decks that work on curve (not like there is a lot of this in reality right now). Also Quest make other quest worse depending of the sub-reward value at the point that one quest is not just "weaker" but unplayable in most cases.
I don't mind hero cards, I just wish they would bin the armour gain part of the cards. 5 might not sound like much, but its amazing how often that extra 5 health stops you from winning/losing.
I could understand with the DK because most of them were slower cards, but thats just not the case with the new ones