I'm not going to lead in with some long winded intro, but I will preface this analysis by stating that this is going to be broken down into various parts, aimed to encapsulate the areas that makes Druid strong, and how those area's play onto one another's inherent strengths.
Let's get started.
-The Consistency Problem-
One thing that Druids do, far better than any other class without any semblance of reasonable close comparison, is find their strongest cards, namely Guff, with extreme consistency. The offenders and enablers of this are as follows:
These three (six) cards contribute insurmountably to the success of Druid. They allow Druid to shore up their necessary pieces to produce a consistent experience with each playthrough. An experience offered to very few other classes in any capacity. I feel the abundance of cheap, efficient "tutoring" options that Druid has access to contributes more to their success than any other factor. Every other strength of the deck is magnified by the options to see those strengths at all via these enablers.
-The Card Advantage Problem-
I am not going to reference cards in this category, as I feel this is is glaringly apparent and obvious. Fourteen of the thirty cards in the standard list draw or produce additional cards, with almost all of them producing several additional. Druids are, in short, capable of churning through their deck with both extreme ease and consistency.
-The Kazakusan Problem-
All of this deck churning mentioned in the previous assessment would, in most cases, result in a sense of inevitability for the Druid via self fatigue. However that opposition is solved by a single minion that we all know and love, Kazakusan
Rather than this reckless deck churning running the Druid out of fuel, they are rewarded with a deck that flips their own inevitability onto their opponent. All of a sudden, the Druid's deck now consists of the strongest cards imaginable. One's that the druid will also have ease of access to, thanks to previously mentioned strengths.
-The Tempo and Counter Tempo Problem-
So let's start with the Counter or Anti-tempo problem. One thing long time Hearthstone players will remember is that Druids traditionally don't have the easiest means of clearing enemy boards, be them wide or tall. Blizzard decided to remedy this shortcoming through the likes of:
Where Druids once fell short of options to catchup on a lost board, their woes have been remedied through these means to some extent.
As for the Tempo problem itself, I think this is something we have all experienced. Druids dropping the ever favorite Oracle of Elune , and proceeding to summon 16/16, or even 32/32 in stats, for 0 mana, thanks to a giant that synergizes extremely well with their already sound gameplan.
-The Sustain Problem-
So you may think that you should be able to stick a bunch of damage early game while druid is in their "set up" phase, and then finish them with reach, right? Wrong. Blizzard has brought back Earthen Scales to give Druids a very consistent 1 mana: Gain 9+ armor. Sometimes running into three of these thanks to Moonlit Guidance. Another weakness of sacrificing an early game shorn up with a single, cheap card.
-The Ramp/Guff Problem-
Finally we arrive at the problem that Druid is notoriously disliked for. Their ability to bridge a wide gap in mana with their opponent. Well, thanks to their new hero Guff, this gap has been taken further than ever seen before. It is not uncommon for the Druid to be at 14+ mana while you're at 6-7, and anyone on the receiving end of that knows the kinds of disadvantage that provides. I'm not going to delve deeper into this, as it's very known and apparent. We've all been there. We've all seen what a class can do with twenty mana and no shortage of cards.
-In Conclusion-
I want to conclude by saying that, of all of the problems listed above, I believe the greatest offender to be the consistency problem. Everything else is made possible by Druids ability to consistently find the pieces needed. It all falls into place because Druid is very good and efficient at making it all fall into place. Guff wouldn't be the problem he is if he wasn't consistently found and played on or shortly after curve.
But that aside, something has got to give. It's a class that basically has everything, and lacks little. Early game, big tempo decks like Demon hunter, Pirate warriors, and some Mech variants can still bring Druid to heel. But even against all of that, Druid can still easily sneak out a win if they don't whiff on too much early game.
Something needs to give with Druid Blizzard, they shouldn't have "it all."
One obvious problem with Oracle of Elune is how inconsistently it decides whether something costs less than 2 mana.
The card text on Naga Giant says that it costs 20, but it's effect make it cost 0. In that instance, Oracle of Elune ignores the card text and bases its decision on the effective cost. Then you have the opposite case with Ivus, the Forest Lord, where its card text says that it costs 1, but its effect make it cost 17. In that instance, Oracle of Elune ignores the *effective cost* and instead bases its decision on the *card text*
It picks and chooses how the rules work based on whatever is most beneficial to the Druid at the time. It needs to pick one or the other.
Kaza is the biggest problem because that is a win condition on its own without counter. Everything else can be dealt with with silence, hard creamoval and board clear. Kazas text need to be changed that it just works if you have dragons in your deck and that you get ONE treasure per dragon in the deck. This shit card need to go.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"... but not less than (1)" is needed now more than ever!
One obvious problem with Oracle of Elune is how inconsistently it decides whether something costs less than 2 mana.
The card text on Naga Giant says that it costs 20, but it's effect make it cost 0. In that instance, Oracle of Elune ignores the card text and bases its decision on the effective cost. Then you have the opposite case with Ivus, the Forest Lord, where its card text says that it costs 1, but its effect make it cost 17. In that instance, Oracle of Elune ignores the *effective cost* and instead bases its decision on the *card text*
It picks and chooses how the rules work based on whatever is most beneficial to the Druid at the time. It needs to pick one or the other.
I'm not saying that it isn't bullshit that they can summon two huge minions for free, but your interpretation of the interaction with those two cards couldn't be more wrong.
Ivus is a 1 mana card. His battlecry uses the remaining mana to buff him. He is a perfectly valid target for Oracle.
Naga giant has a lower mana cost on the card while in your hand - if you play it for 2 or less then it too meets the requirements for the Oracle.
It might not seem fair (and probably isn't) but it's perfectly consistent with how other cards have behaved in the past. I'm almost certain that Forbidden Healing into Oh My Yogg! will give you a zero mana spell (but I think you should still have your full mana left).
One obvious problem with Oracle of Elune is how inconsistently it decides whether something costs less than 2 mana.
The card text on Naga Giant says that it costs 20, but it's effect make it cost 0. In that instance, Oracle of Elune ignores the card text and bases its decision on the effective cost. Then you have the opposite case with Ivus, the Forest Lord, where its card text says that it costs 1, but its effect make it cost 17. In that instance, Oracle of Elune ignores the *effective cost* and instead bases its decision on the *card text*
It picks and chooses how the rules work based on whatever is most beneficial to the Druid at the time. It needs to pick one or the other.
I have to disagree with you as well. Nothing about ivus makes him ever cost more than 1 mana. His battlecry spends your mana, but he is always a 1 mana minions. Even if there was a card that said “destroy a minion that costs 1 or less,” he would die to it.
And the giants cost 0 mana when played, so this also makes sense with oracle.
I still think that the oracle of elune ivus combo shouldn't work the way it should, it should summon ivus as a 1/1 do the battle cry then summon another 1/1 ivus, because if you put out a turn 9 oracle then it lives on turn ten, you get two 13/13 rush,divine shield, taunt minions and it just feels so nasty to actually hit that combo.
Nerf guff to 8/9 mana is a really good start. Kazakusan needs a harder condition to be activated, druids ramping 8 mana, instantly playing him and snowballing the game with OP treasures is more frequent than it should. Aquatic form should cost 1.
Playing against druid is like playing against a raid boss, the draw a shit ton of cards. gain a lot of armor and have treasures, and really good tempo options. They need to nerf a lot of cards
Finally someone lucid here at hearthpwn, all i see is people talking about pirate warrior, mech mage and quest hunter dont get me wrong i think all of them needs adjustments and i have no idea how you do that im not a dev... but druid is the real problem here because of everything you mentioned, they are way too consistent.
One obvious problem with Oracle of Elune is how inconsistently it decides whether something costs less than 2 mana.
The card text on Naga Giant says that it costs 20, but it's effect make it cost 0. In that instance, Oracle of Elune ignores the card text and bases its decision on the effective cost. Then you have the opposite case with Ivus, the Forest Lord, where its card text says that it costs 1, but its effect make it cost 17. In that instance, Oracle of Elune ignores the *effective cost* and instead bases its decision on the *card text*
It picks and chooses how the rules work based on whatever is most beneficial to the Druid at the time. It needs to pick one or the other.
I have to disagree with you as well. Nothing about ivus makes him ever cost more than 1 mana. His battlecry spends your mana, but he is always a 1 mana minions. Even if there was a card that said “destroy a minion that costs 1 or less,” he would die to it.
And the giants cost 0 mana when played, so this also makes sense with oracle.
Ivus I'll give you but the interaction with Naga Giant seems to contradict previously established rules. For example, there was a notorious combo in the past with Conjurer's Calling and Mountain Giant. Conjurer's Calling would recognise and treat Mountain Giant as a 12-mana card, even if it was played for 3 mana. This would suggest that a mana-altered giant, when on-board, reverts to its original cost. So why is Naga Giant not treated as a 20-cost card by Oracle of Elune?
TL;DR: Ramp druid has no weaknesses. All the problems that plagued the archetype since its inception (not finding ramp early, board removal etc) have been covered up so the class is now OP.
What I dont understand is, why does Team 5 keep covering up class weaknesses? Everytime this happens the ladder experience goes to shit, and it happens WAY too often to be a coincidence. It seems DELIBERATE.
Does making classes broken OP make people spend more in the shop? Or are they just rly imcompetent at testing their own game?
One obvious problem with Oracle of Elune is how inconsistently it decides whether something costs less than 2 mana.
The card text on Naga Giant says that it costs 20, but it's effect make it cost 0. In that instance, Oracle of Elune ignores the card text and bases its decision on the effective cost. Then you have the opposite case with Ivus, the Forest Lord, where its card text says that it costs 1, but its effect make it cost 17. In that instance, Oracle of Elune ignores the *effective cost* and instead bases its decision on the *card text*
It picks and chooses how the rules work based on whatever is most beneficial to the Druid at the time. It needs to pick one or the other.
I have to disagree with you as well. Nothing about ivus makes him ever cost more than 1 mana. His battlecry spends your mana, but he is always a 1 mana minions. Even if there was a card that said “destroy a minion that costs 1 or less,” he would die to it.
And the giants cost 0 mana when played, so this also makes sense with oracle.
Ivus I'll give you but the interaction with Naga Giant seems to contradict previously established rules. For example, there was a notorious combo in the past with Conjurer's Calling and Mountain Giant. Conjurer's Calling would recognise and treat Mountain Giant as a 12-mana card, even if it was played for 3 mana. This would suggest that a mana-altered giant, when on-board, reverts to its original cost. So why is Naga Giant not treated as a 20-cost card by Oracle of Elune?
It doesn't break any previously established rules. Card cost reductions have always reverted after the card is played (hence the interaction with Conjurer's Calling). This is true for all minions whose mana costs were changed in hand (up or down). Once they hit the board the mana cost reverts back to the normal value.
The only exception was corrupt cards, but they actually become different cards once corrupted.
Agreed at every point of the post. Definitely need some toning down. Maybe Guff 8-10 mana. Readjust some ridiculous manacheats.
Remember when mage had to play 8 generated spells and 5 mana just to have an extra turn of 10 mana worth? Now Druids can play Guff on 5 and after few turns they basically Open the Waygate every turn for free.
Here’s the problem with guff, it is a very weak hero card with no board impact when played. It’s strength is allowing the 10 mana cap breach and gain a crystal hero power. The ideal move is wild growth on 3, guff on four, then miracle growth to refill and gain board. If guff gets nerfed to 8, he’s going to have to have a nourish before to be played effectively and even then, this deck will immediately die to mech mage or any board based deck. This is a difficult spot, because a nerf to 6 might not be a big difference. We knew this before they made the hero cards.
If they nerf Druid class cards, especially Guff, then they really have to nerf all the Aggro power house as well (Mech Mage, Pirate Warrior, Quest Hunter). Druid rn is the only class that can counters those Aggro classes effectively into the late-game values. Other control decks don't exist. Nerfing Druid's power does not bring back other control decks if that is what you are hoping for.
Kasakusan is the card that I can agree if it gets nerf, but it is a Neutral card, not a Druid class card problem.
Instead of complaining about Druid consistencies, why not improving the consistencies for other weaker classes atm? we have more classes that need more help on: DH, Shaman, Priest, Warlock, hello? (I think Rogue & Paladin are balanced if the other classes are not so strong..)
If they nerf Druid class cards, especially Guff, then they really have to nerf all the Aggro power house as well (Mech Mage, Pirate Warrior, Quest Hunter). Druid rn is the only class that can counters those Aggro classes effectively into the late-game values. Other control decks don't exist. Nerfing Druid's power does not bring back other control decks if that is what you are hoping for.
Kasakusan is the card that I can agree if it gets nerf, but it is a Neutral card, not a Druid class card problem.
Instead of complaining about Druid consistencies, why not improving the consistencies for other weaker classes atm? we have more classes that need more help on: DH, Shaman, Priest, Warlock, hello? (I think Rogue & Paladin are balanced if the other classes are not so strong..)
Don’t forget that they sold gold Kazakusan in an $80 bundle last month… I’m not an expert, but big Kazakusan nerfs could be grounds for false advertising and result in a refund from apple/google.
Yeah this all combines to make a pretty powerful class.
Guff is weirdly not the issue. He's a powerful card, but he's really just enabled by everything else.
Personally if they're doing wider nerfs to the whole meta, druid's should be:
Aquatic form to 1 mana. Jerry Rigged Carpenter to 3. (2/2 instead of a 2/1, tho)
Moonlit Guidance to 3.
Kazakusan's effect should require you to have a dragon in your hand.
Scale of Onyxia should be 8 mana.
I think these are sensible nerfs. I don't... really mind the Nourish buff. Nourish was so bad at 6. But you gotta make overall adjustments to the class otherwise for that.
I'm not going to lead in with some long winded intro, but I will preface this analysis by stating that this is going to be broken down into various parts, aimed to encapsulate the areas that makes Druid strong, and how those area's play onto one another's inherent strengths.
Let's get started.
-The Consistency Problem-
One thing that Druids do, far better than any other class without any semblance of reasonable close comparison, is find their strongest cards, namely Guff, with extreme consistency. The offenders and enablers of this are as follows:
Aquatic Form
Jerry Rig Carpenter
Moonlit Guidance
These three (six) cards contribute insurmountably to the success of Druid. They allow Druid to shore up their necessary pieces to produce a consistent experience with each playthrough. An experience offered to very few other classes in any capacity. I feel the abundance of cheap, efficient "tutoring" options that Druid has access to contributes more to their success than any other factor. Every other strength of the deck is magnified by the options to see those strengths at all via these enablers.
-The Card Advantage Problem-
I am not going to reference cards in this category, as I feel this is is glaringly apparent and obvious. Fourteen of the thirty cards in the standard list draw or produce additional cards, with almost all of them producing several additional. Druids are, in short, capable of churning through their deck with both extreme ease and consistency.
-The Kazakusan Problem-
All of this deck churning mentioned in the previous assessment would, in most cases, result in a sense of inevitability for the Druid via self fatigue. However that opposition is solved by a single minion that we all know and love, Kazakusan
Rather than this reckless deck churning running the Druid out of fuel, they are rewarded with a deck that flips their own inevitability onto their opponent. All of a sudden, the Druid's deck now consists of the strongest cards imaginable. One's that the druid will also have ease of access to, thanks to previously mentioned strengths.
-The Tempo and Counter Tempo Problem-
So let's start with the Counter or Anti-tempo problem. One thing long time Hearthstone players will remember is that Druids traditionally don't have the easiest means of clearing enemy boards, be them wide or tall. Blizzard decided to remedy this shortcoming through the likes of:
Dozing Kelpkeeper
Scale of Onyxia
Raid Boss Onyxia
Where Druids once fell short of options to catchup on a lost board, their woes have been remedied through these means to some extent.
As for the Tempo problem itself, I think this is something we have all experienced. Druids dropping the ever favorite Oracle of Elune , and proceeding to summon 16/16, or even 32/32 in stats, for 0 mana, thanks to a giant that synergizes extremely well with their already sound gameplan.
-The Sustain Problem-
So you may think that you should be able to stick a bunch of damage early game while druid is in their "set up" phase, and then finish them with reach, right? Wrong. Blizzard has brought back Earthen Scales to give Druids a very consistent 1 mana: Gain 9+ armor. Sometimes running into three of these thanks to Moonlit Guidance. Another weakness of sacrificing an early game shorn up with a single, cheap card.
-The Ramp/Guff Problem-
Finally we arrive at the problem that Druid is notoriously disliked for. Their ability to bridge a wide gap in mana with their opponent. Well, thanks to their new hero Guff, this gap has been taken further than ever seen before. It is not uncommon for the Druid to be at 14+ mana while you're at 6-7, and anyone on the receiving end of that knows the kinds of disadvantage that provides. I'm not going to delve deeper into this, as it's very known and apparent. We've all been there. We've all seen what a class can do with twenty mana and no shortage of cards.
-In Conclusion-
I want to conclude by saying that, of all of the problems listed above, I believe the greatest offender to be the consistency problem. Everything else is made possible by Druids ability to consistently find the pieces needed. It all falls into place because Druid is very good and efficient at making it all fall into place. Guff wouldn't be the problem he is if he wasn't consistently found and played on or shortly after curve.
But that aside, something has got to give. It's a class that basically has everything, and lacks little. Early game, big tempo decks like Demon hunter, Pirate warriors, and some Mech variants can still bring Druid to heel. But even against all of that, Druid can still easily sneak out a win if they don't whiff on too much early game.
Something needs to give with Druid Blizzard, they shouldn't have "it all."
Re-nerf Nourish, Guff to 8 mana is a good start to fix druid. People were saying that druid loses a lot of tools into the rotation...
One obvious problem with Oracle of Elune is how inconsistently it decides whether something costs less than 2 mana.
The card text on Naga Giant says that it costs 20, but it's effect make it cost 0. In that instance, Oracle of Elune ignores the card text and bases its decision on the effective cost. Then you have the opposite case with Ivus, the Forest Lord, where its card text says that it costs 1, but its effect make it cost 17. In that instance, Oracle of Elune ignores the *effective cost* and instead bases its decision on the *card text*
It picks and chooses how the rules work based on whatever is most beneficial to the Druid at the time. It needs to pick one or the other.
Kaza is the biggest problem because that is a win condition on its own without counter. Everything else can be dealt with with silence, hard creamoval and board clear. Kazas text need to be changed that it just works if you have dragons in your deck and that you get ONE treasure per dragon in the deck. This shit card need to go.
"... but not less than (1)" is needed now more than ever!
Druid has been OP since Kazakusan release... and has gained power with latest expansion.
I'm not saying that it isn't bullshit that they can summon two huge minions for free, but your interpretation of the interaction with those two cards couldn't be more wrong.
Ivus is a 1 mana card. His battlecry uses the remaining mana to buff him. He is a perfectly valid target for Oracle.
Naga giant has a lower mana cost on the card while in your hand - if you play it for 2 or less then it too meets the requirements for the Oracle.
It might not seem fair (and probably isn't) but it's perfectly consistent with how other cards have behaved in the past. I'm almost certain that Forbidden Healing into Oh My Yogg! will give you a zero mana spell (but I think you should still have your full mana left).
I have to disagree with you as well. Nothing about ivus makes him ever cost more than 1 mana. His battlecry spends your mana, but he is always a 1 mana minions. Even if there was a card that said “destroy a minion that costs 1 or less,” he would die to it.
And the giants cost 0 mana when played, so this also makes sense with oracle.
I still think that the oracle of elune ivus combo shouldn't work the way it should, it should summon ivus as a 1/1 do the battle cry then summon another 1/1 ivus, because if you put out a turn 9 oracle then it lives on turn ten, you get two 13/13 rush,divine shield, taunt minions and it just feels so nasty to actually hit that combo.
𝔅𝔶 𝔱𝔥𝔢 𝔢𝔩𝔢𝔪𝔢𝔫𝔱𝔰 𝔠𝔬𝔪𝔟𝔦𝔫𝔢𝔡!
Nerf guff to 8/9 mana is a really good start. Kazakusan needs a harder condition to be activated, druids ramping 8 mana, instantly playing him and snowballing the game with OP treasures is more frequent than it should.
Aquatic form should cost 1.
Playing against druid is like playing against a raid boss, the draw a shit ton of cards. gain a lot of armor and have treasures, and really good tempo options. They need to nerf a lot of cards
Literally nothing wrong with druid. Pirates and Mechs are the busted decks, fix them then control decks can thrive vs druid
Finally someone lucid here at hearthpwn, all i see is people talking about pirate warrior, mech mage and quest hunter dont get me wrong i think all of them needs adjustments and i have no idea how you do that im not a dev... but druid is the real problem here because of everything you mentioned, they are way too consistent.
i hope they drop a balance patch asap.
Ivus I'll give you but the interaction with Naga Giant seems to contradict previously established rules. For example, there was a notorious combo in the past with Conjurer's Calling and Mountain Giant. Conjurer's Calling would recognise and treat Mountain Giant as a 12-mana card, even if it was played for 3 mana. This would suggest that a mana-altered giant, when on-board, reverts to its original cost. So why is Naga Giant not treated as a 20-cost card by Oracle of Elune?
TL;DR: Ramp druid has no weaknesses. All the problems that plagued the archetype since its inception (not finding ramp early, board removal etc) have been covered up so the class is now OP.
What I dont understand is, why does Team 5 keep covering up class weaknesses? Everytime this happens the ladder experience goes to shit, and it happens WAY too often to be a coincidence. It seems DELIBERATE.
Does making classes broken OP make people spend more in the shop? Or are they just rly imcompetent at testing their own game?
This is absolute nonsense and also makes no sense. Druid walks all over control decks.
It doesn't break any previously established rules. Card cost reductions have always reverted after the card is played (hence the interaction with Conjurer's Calling). This is true for all minions whose mana costs were changed in hand (up or down). Once they hit the board the mana cost reverts back to the normal value.
The only exception was corrupt cards, but they actually become different cards once corrupted.
Agreed at every point of the post. Definitely need some toning down. Maybe Guff 8-10 mana. Readjust some ridiculous manacheats.
Remember when mage had to play 8 generated spells and 5 mana just to have an extra turn of 10 mana worth? Now Druids can play Guff on 5 and after few turns they basically Open the Waygate every turn for free.
Here’s the problem with guff, it is a very weak hero card with no board impact when played. It’s strength is allowing the 10 mana cap breach and gain a crystal hero power. The ideal move is wild growth on 3, guff on four, then miracle growth to refill and gain board. If guff gets nerfed to 8, he’s going to have to have a nourish before to be played effectively and even then, this deck will immediately die to mech mage or any board based deck. This is a difficult spot, because a nerf to 6 might not be a big difference. We knew this before they made the hero cards.
If they nerf Druid class cards, especially Guff, then they really have to nerf all the Aggro power house as well (Mech Mage, Pirate Warrior, Quest Hunter). Druid rn is the only class that can counters those Aggro classes effectively into the late-game values. Other control decks don't exist. Nerfing Druid's power does not bring back other control decks if that is what you are hoping for.
Kasakusan is the card that I can agree if it gets nerf, but it is a Neutral card, not a Druid class card problem.
Instead of complaining about Druid consistencies, why not improving the consistencies for other weaker classes atm? we have more classes that need more help on: DH, Shaman, Priest, Warlock, hello? (I think Rogue & Paladin are balanced if the other classes are not so strong..)
Don’t forget that they sold gold Kazakusan in an $80 bundle last month… I’m not an expert, but big Kazakusan nerfs could be grounds for false advertising and result in a refund from apple/google.
Yeah this all combines to make a pretty powerful class.
Guff is weirdly not the issue. He's a powerful card, but he's really just enabled by everything else.
Personally if they're doing wider nerfs to the whole meta, druid's should be:
Aquatic form to 1 mana.
Jerry Rigged Carpenter to 3. (2/2 instead of a 2/1, tho)
Moonlit Guidance to 3.
Kazakusan's effect should require you to have a dragon in your hand.
Scale of Onyxia should be 8 mana.
I think these are sensible nerfs. I don't... really mind the Nourish buff. Nourish was so bad at 6. But you gotta make overall adjustments to the class otherwise for that.