Seems to me that the last sets were so good that they feel that the only way to get folks to buy new cards is to make them batshit crazy good. And then, maybe do so even more next time. And so on.
There used to be a somewhat predictable formula for what a card was worth. It seemed pretty stable for a long while. But, I don't even recognize that curve in the new cards.
Maybe it's just the case that higher cost cards had been too weak in the past and we just seeing that corrected now. But, I get the feeling that they are just leaning hard into power creep to generate sales.
"Colossal" is one of the most uninspired mechanics to date, it's a stretch even calling it a mechanic lol. It's literally shorthand for "Summon X minion", except with the caveat that the battlecry works if it's pulled from deck or hand by some other means (we haven't seen any support yet). Much interesting, wow.
I prefer to just look at these colossal things as stat sticks and when you add the stats up, yes they're way over the top and come with board swing effects to boot. The demon hunter one is a combined 7 mana 7/14 across multiple bodies with an end of turn active effect AND grows every turn? The warrior one is a 7 mana 7/11 across two bodies, one with taunt, that also generates value and then on top cheats mana costs on the pirates so you don't lose tempo playing the thing either. If these things were printed 3 years ago then yeah there would be a lot more outrage, but I think most people are beyond caring about the power level now, given HS' dwindling playerbase and evident decreased forum activity here.
One example I can think of is Dreadlich Tamsin. For 6 mana, you get a 3 damage AoE, draw 3 cards, upgrade hero power and gain 5 armor, maaaaybe get a 3/3 imp or two on board as well. imo in a vacuum this is the most powerful card for mana cost we currently have in HS, but we're living with it in the game just fine.
There has always been some power creep, but yes it has gotten worse. Minions are about 1 stat point bigger compared to the first few years, removal does about 1 more damage, card draw gets about 1 extra card, healing is significantly cheaper, etc.
But it's the lategame that has crept the most. Just look at the ubiquity of cards like old Jaraxxus, N'Zoth, Ysera, etc., and how they are stronger today yet don't see any play. It used to be that most lategame strategies consisted of just bigger minions and maybe a little bit of burn, but now it's all permanent powerups from heroes/quests and OTKs from hand for well over 30 damage. It seems like Blizzard don't want games to go much longer than turn 10.
1 cost minions are the only exception. 2/2 and 1/3 as statlines are a lot more common now than they used to be.
2 mana minions are still some variation of 2/3 or 3/2. 3 cost are still 3/4 or 4/3. etc. etc. I think MAYBE they're more willing to give those premium statlines out to minions, even ones with strong effects, but generally there aren't higher stats overall.
Powercreep has mainly effected card draw and card generation (it was EXTREMELY rare to see 1 mana cards that generated a card, now it's common), cheap removal (1 mana deal 3 is an extremely common effect now), and cards that can go face (mage has like... what? 8-9 spells that can go face in one form or another? They used to have like 3 and one of them was random. Sometimes 4.)
The implementation of questline was overall power-creep-y too. Quests were suddenly multi-tiered things that give lots of value and make up for their own tempo/value loss almost immediately. Which is good and made them a lot more meta, but bad because they're basically a cheap tool to outvalue your opponent.
The large number of good rush minions has also created a problem.
In general I think it all comes down to the card draw/card generation issue, and the cost of card draw and card generation more than anything. Like Warlock's been able to cycle through it's entire deck by turn 7 since Descent of Dragons and that just should NOT be a thing.
It's a difficult situation. Blizz has three options, and none of them are that great.
1) Release very bad expansions where very few of the cards are even remotely worth looking at (for example, Rastakhan and TGT)
2) Continue power-creeping to avoid problem #1
3) Revamp the entirety of Hearthstone's sets to lower the power.
Because you can't really just use the rotation to lower power levels THAT much, since there are more formats in the game right now that uses non-standard sets than there are that just use standard sets. Yes, they primarily care about Standard, but they can't start making sets that will never be worth purchasing for non-standard players. Arena, Duels, and Wild might all be individually much smaller than standard, but when you factor them in together, they are a very large playerbase.
It's a difficult situation. Blizz has three options, and none of them are that great.
1) Release very bad expansions where very few of the cards are even remotely worth looking at (for example, Rastakhan and TGT)
2) Continue power-creeping to avoid problem #1
3) Revamp the entirety of Hearthstone's sets to lower the power.
Because you can't really just use the rotation to lower power levels THAT much, since there are more formats in the game right now that uses non-standard sets than there are that just use standard sets. Yes, they primarily care about Standard, but they can't start making sets that will never be worth purchasing for non-standard players. Arena, Duels, and Wild might all be individually much smaller than standard, but when you factor them in together, they are a very large playerbase.
Yes and I mostly agree with you but there is also the fourth solution for me. And it is the solution for which I am hoping.
4) Total rework of HS with new ideas.
This can be done with cards that interact with the graveyard, cards that interact in the opponent's turn, cards that interact with the map, equipment for the heroes and so on so forth, imagination is the only limit. We have only seen the rules broken with tradable cards and I think that this was one of the best things added in the game since the start. The best card of this expansion, in terms of card design, like now, for me, is Blademaster Okani. This card is new in design. I would like to see, at least, things like this.
In conclusion, this game is becoming pretty boring, I would like to see aggressive changes.
This thread is based on some players perception. To Blizzard the only thing that matters is the bottom line, making insane amounts of cash. Making cards less powerful when players are used to powerful cards = less packs and bundles sold = less money coming in. The idea that Blizzard is going to rework HS is pure insanity. Remember the only thing that matters to Blizzard is the bottom line. Money is rolling in so to them the game isn't broken. They will likely follow the old advice of "If it ain't broke, don't fix it". The only way to change this is if players buy fewer packs and bundles. If you think that's going to happen, I may have some ocean front property in Arizona you might be interested in.
Sure, some 8-cost legendaries may seem bonkers, but... They're 8-cost legendaries. They need to be bonkers.
If you want to judge a set's relative power you should look at the cards that will represent 90% of the playables, which is cards that cost 4 or less (5 or less in slower formats) or cards that can be cheated into play.
It's a difficult situation. Blizz has three options, and none of them are that great.
1) Release very bad expansions where very few of the cards are even remotely worth looking at (for example, Rastakhan and TGT)
2) Continue power-creeping to avoid problem #1
3) Revamp the entirety of Hearthstone's sets to lower the power.
Because you can't really just use the rotation to lower power levels THAT much, since there are more formats in the game right now that uses non-standard sets than there are that just use standard sets. Yes, they primarily care about Standard, but they can't start making sets that will never be worth purchasing for non-standard players. Arena, Duels, and Wild might all be individually much smaller than standard, but when you factor them in together, they are a very large playerbase.
For Standard, it seems the best course of action would be to rotate ALL expansions every year --- not just two years' ago expansions. This allows them to start fresh and refresh the power levels every cycle. There are many expansions per cycle, and with how the cycle works now, they are constantly trying to outperform each last expansion, because they're not getting rotated for another year; so if you remove them completely, there is no hard power level competition, and this will allow them to focus more on other things.
And Wild would still be focused on finding all the pieces that fit together over the years.
I don't understand people's issues. Power creep as compared to what? Silverback patriarch? Is that the world we want to live in? Standard is a constantly rotating platform, power creep has such little meaning in that kind of format
When they first broke up standard/wild and did HOF, they said it was to add 'design space', but then within 2 sets they completely obliterated the design space. What was the point of Hall of Faming Rag and Sylvanas if you were just going to powercreep them into obsolescence anyway?
Seems to me that the last sets were so good that they feel that the only way to get folks to buy new cards is to make them batshit crazy good. And then, maybe do so even more next time. And so on.
There used to be a somewhat predictable formula for what a card was worth. It seemed pretty stable for a long while. But, I don't even recognize that curve in the new cards.
Maybe it's just the case that higher cost cards had been too weak in the past and we just seeing that corrected now. But, I get the feeling that they are just leaning hard into power creep to generate sales.
Galavant Animation
Year of the Dragon was the worst by far.
Year of the Phoenix was pretty bad too, but Year of the Gryphon was incredibly average.
Oh and Year of the Mammoth, but solely because of Kobolds and Catacombs.
When the idea is missing you can only increase the power level to sell. The idea is very poor since expansions. We're seeing a lot of reprints.
I dont see these new mechanisms being a power creep. They semm pretty slow and hard to make work.
Theres a lot more to be revealed but it seems that fast agro decks will thrive in the future again.
Nearly all minions are with overstats and effects. In reality, we never saw minions with so many overstats.
no but it makes sense that powercreep would only get worse, or else it wouldn't be powercreep
"Colossal" is one of the most uninspired mechanics to date, it's a stretch even calling it a mechanic lol. It's literally shorthand for "Summon X minion", except with the caveat that the battlecry works if it's pulled from deck or hand by some other means (we haven't seen any support yet). Much interesting, wow.
I prefer to just look at these colossal things as stat sticks and when you add the stats up, yes they're way over the top and come with board swing effects to boot. The demon hunter one is a combined 7 mana 7/14 across multiple bodies with an end of turn active effect AND grows every turn? The warrior one is a 7 mana 7/11 across two bodies, one with taunt, that also generates value and then on top cheats mana costs on the pirates so you don't lose tempo playing the thing either. If these things were printed 3 years ago then yeah there would be a lot more outrage, but I think most people are beyond caring about the power level now, given HS' dwindling playerbase and evident decreased forum activity here.
One example I can think of is Dreadlich Tamsin. For 6 mana, you get a 3 damage AoE, draw 3 cards, upgrade hero power and gain 5 armor, maaaaybe get a 3/3 imp or two on board as well. imo in a vacuum this is the most powerful card for mana cost we currently have in HS, but we're living with it in the game just fine.
There has always been some power creep, but yes it has gotten worse. Minions are about 1 stat point bigger compared to the first few years, removal does about 1 more damage, card draw gets about 1 extra card, healing is significantly cheaper, etc.
But it's the lategame that has crept the most. Just look at the ubiquity of cards like old Jaraxxus, N'Zoth, Ysera, etc., and how they are stronger today yet don't see any play. It used to be that most lategame strategies consisted of just bigger minions and maybe a little bit of burn, but now it's all permanent powerups from heroes/quests and OTKs from hand for well over 30 damage. It seems like Blizzard don't want games to go much longer than turn 10.
delete
There really isn't overstated minions.
1 cost minions are the only exception. 2/2 and 1/3 as statlines are a lot more common now than they used to be.
2 mana minions are still some variation of 2/3 or 3/2. 3 cost are still 3/4 or 4/3. etc. etc. I think MAYBE they're more willing to give those premium statlines out to minions, even ones with strong effects, but generally there aren't higher stats overall.
Powercreep has mainly effected card draw and card generation (it was EXTREMELY rare to see 1 mana cards that generated a card, now it's common), cheap removal (1 mana deal 3 is an extremely common effect now), and cards that can go face (mage has like... what? 8-9 spells that can go face in one form or another? They used to have like 3 and one of them was random. Sometimes 4.)
The implementation of questline was overall power-creep-y too. Quests were suddenly multi-tiered things that give lots of value and make up for their own tempo/value loss almost immediately. Which is good and made them a lot more meta, but bad because they're basically a cheap tool to outvalue your opponent.
The large number of good rush minions has also created a problem.
In general I think it all comes down to the card draw/card generation issue, and the cost of card draw and card generation more than anything. Like Warlock's been able to cycle through it's entire deck by turn 7 since Descent of Dragons and that just should NOT be a thing.
It's a difficult situation. Blizz has three options, and none of them are that great.
1) Release very bad expansions where very few of the cards are even remotely worth looking at (for example, Rastakhan and TGT)
2) Continue power-creeping to avoid problem #1
3) Revamp the entirety of Hearthstone's sets to lower the power.
Because you can't really just use the rotation to lower power levels THAT much, since there are more formats in the game right now that uses non-standard sets than there are that just use standard sets. Yes, they primarily care about Standard, but they can't start making sets that will never be worth purchasing for non-standard players. Arena, Duels, and Wild might all be individually much smaller than standard, but when you factor them in together, they are a very large playerbase.
Yes and I mostly agree with you but there is also the fourth solution for me. And it is the solution for which I am hoping.
4) Total rework of HS with new ideas.
This can be done with cards that interact with the graveyard, cards that interact in the opponent's turn, cards that interact with the map, equipment for the heroes and so on so forth, imagination is the only limit. We have only seen the rules broken with tradable cards and I think that this was one of the best things added in the game since the start. The best card of this expansion, in terms of card design, like now, for me, is Blademaster Okani. This card is new in design. I would like to see, at least, things like this.
In conclusion, this game is becoming pretty boring, I would like to see aggressive changes.
This thread is based on some players perception. To Blizzard the only thing that matters is the bottom line, making insane amounts of cash. Making cards less powerful when players are used to powerful cards = less packs and bundles sold = less money coming in. The idea that Blizzard is going to rework HS is pure insanity. Remember the only thing that matters to Blizzard is the bottom line. Money is rolling in so to them the game isn't broken. They will likely follow the old advice of "If it ain't broke, don't fix it". The only way to change this is if players buy fewer packs and bundles. If you think that's going to happen, I may have some ocean front property in Arizona you might be interested in.
If you are in your first year of playing please read this post.
Dust does not burn a hole in the jar. Be careful what you craft, especially before and right after a rotation.
I don't see any power creep in the upcoming set.
Sure, some 8-cost legendaries may seem bonkers, but... They're 8-cost legendaries. They need to be bonkers.
If you want to judge a set's relative power you should look at the cards that will represent 90% of the playables, which is cards that cost 4 or less (5 or less in slower formats) or cards that can be cheated into play.
For Standard, it seems the best course of action would be to rotate ALL expansions every year --- not just two years' ago expansions. This allows them to start fresh and refresh the power levels every cycle. There are many expansions per cycle, and with how the cycle works now, they are constantly trying to outperform each last expansion, because they're not getting rotated for another year; so if you remove them completely, there is no hard power level competition, and this will allow them to focus more on other things.
And Wild would still be focused on finding all the pieces that fit together over the years.
Yogg take the wheel!
I don't understand people's issues. Power creep as compared to what? Silverback patriarch? Is that the world we want to live in? Standard is a constantly rotating platform, power creep has such little meaning in that kind of format
When they first broke up standard/wild and did HOF, they said it was to add 'design space', but then within 2 sets they completely obliterated the design space. What was the point of Hall of Faming Rag and Sylvanas if you were just going to powercreep them into obsolescence anyway?
They made a format specifically so they could batsh*t crazy cards in it.... but then just decided to add those cards to standard anyway. (Duels/Kaz)
Lol, this is literally a discussion at the beginning of every expansion for years.
that is because team 5 has been powercreeping like crazy. Ever since the release of DH, the balancing of each expansion has been a joke.