Dawngrasp is shoehorned into the game and lore as a way to signal that Blizzard is taking a political stance in the socio-political issues of today. The character is unlikable to many simply due to the fact that it seems as if it was created for ulterior motives other than to create new Warcraft-related lore.
Varden Dawngrasp is blatantly referencing IRL gender issues. I, and many others do not want Warcraft characters to be created or designed to satisfy any IRL political agenda.
As for the Roames, I don't mind them at all. Black Warcraft characters have existed ever since WoW launched in 2004. Their implementation is believable and well done.
Dawngrasp is shoehorned into the game and lore as a way to signal that Blizzard is taking a political stance in the socio-political issues of today. The character is unlikable to many simply due to the fact that it seems as if it was created for ulterior motives other than to create new Warcraft-related lore.
Varden Dawngrasp is blatantly referencing IRL gender issues. I, and many others do not want Warcraft characters to be created or designed to satisfy any IRL political agenda.
As for the Roames, I don't mind them at all. Black Warcraft characters have existed ever since WoW launched in 2004. Their implementation is believable and well done.
I see where you're coming from, but that does beg a question. If the mere existence of a nonbinary character, even one so innocuous as Varden, whose gender identity is never even directly mentioned, is so disruptive to you, what would you say is the appropriate space for representation?
Another poster asked when in production it was decided that Varden be nonbinary, when is was decided the Roames be black, etc. A counterpoint would be to ask when it was decided the Uther be white? That Arthas be straight? I'd posit that there never was a conscious decision made on either of those because it was always assumed that they would be straight and white.
You say that there have been black characters in WoW since it's launch, but how many were in WC3? In Warcraft lore prior to the launch of WoW?
I see where you're coming from, but that does beg a question. If the mere existence of a nonbinary character, even one so innocuous as Varden, whose gender identity is never even directly mentioned, is so disruptive to you, what would you say is the appropriate space for representation?
Another poster asked when in production it was decided that Varden be nonbinary, when is was decided the Roames be black, etc. A counterpoint would be to ask when it was decided the Uther be white? That Arthas be straight? I'd posit that there never was a conscious decision made on either of those because it was always assumed that they would be straight and white.
You say that there have been black characters in WoW since it's launch, but how many were in WC3? In Warcraft lore prior to the launch of WoW?
Indeed thanks for illustrating my point. It was always assumed these characters would be white because medieval high fantasy is a white invention. It stems from white culture and was created by white men. There's nothing wrong with that and there's nothing particularly amazing about it. It's just a fact. In the same way, the cast of a black panther story would be expected to be black by default.
And the straight thing. Pretty sure they know that if they went too hard with Varden in a game marketed to children they'd be in trouble. For good reason. "When was it decided Arthas be straight?"... don't be ridiculous now. For one, it was decided when his character was given a normal female love interest. In real life, non straight people don't just come up and say, "Hello, I'm so-and-so and I'm non binary". You find out later, through context clues or by asking. The Mercenary team made it their mission to establish a character was gay, before attempting to establish anything else about them.
But yeah, idk why you would just accept that some of these characters have been added simply as token representation and then their characterisation and backstory is just an afterthought. It's pretty disrespectful, all for the sake of representation. Can you name one remotely interesting thing about Varden, other than that he is a non binary mage? But of course, some people eat that right up, most often people who aren't even in the group being "represented", they just have a savior complex.
Varden's creative process looked pretty much like this:
<insert Gru meme here>
-Step 1: Add a non-binary character to your game.
-Step 2: Give him a flavor that gives a satisfying level of depth to that character and opens to potential interesting development.
-Step 3: Make him insufferable.
<looks worried at step 3>
On the other hand, Tamsin is possibly the best of all the mercs so far, and Cariel's story is actually pretty nice. You can clearly see they took far more time thinking on how to make these two characters work than pretty much any of the others (maybe Bru'kan and Xyrella, and Kurtrus, although this attempt is much more flawed than the previous two). So far the only possible token character on this is Varden, since the other candidates are actually fleshed out and have meaningful character arcs that actually contribute to the story as a whole.
P.D.: I liked Jar Jar Binks more than I like Guff, but I like Guff more than I like tauren in general, so in my books he is a win.
Unfortunately big strong mentally-disabled male characters are trendy atm in Western media for comedy relief. Progressives love this character archetype for whatever reason. If you complain, they're liable to accuse you of ableism, meanwhile they feign-dote over the mentally challenged man and talk about him like he's a pet or something.
WTF are you on about? Are you all actually so threatened by the *single* non-binary hero, and the pair of black girls?
If you don't like Guff, whatever, I don't like him much; but he's just a big lovable goofy Tauren hippy.
It's very telling that you brought up these characters when I didn't even mention them :/
Are you trying trick me into breaking TOS or something? Pretty sad if so. Exactly the kind of trick a certain sort of person would try to play. But yes, these characters very clearly exist to meet a diversity quota. This is how companies operate now, they get paid to do it.
You are obviously the one feeling threatened/insecure if you felt the need to bring it up when nobody asked.
Who the hell ELSE could you be talking about when referring to "Forced diversity"? And what's "forced" about them? And what do you mean nobody asked? At least two posts in this topic refer to Blizzard "forcing diversity". What the hell else could that mean? And then... you went on to basically say "yes you're right, I feel those characters are forced." I don't get it.
But yeah, idk why you would just accept that some of these characters have been added simply as token representation and then their characterisation and backstory is just an afterthought. It's pretty disrespectful, all for the sake of representation. Can you name one remotely interesting thing about Varden, other than that he is a non binary mage?
I don't know what I would say about ANY hearthstone-exclusive character, they're all broad stereotypes defined by a few short lines of dialogue. And we don't even know Varden is gay. The only reference to their gender is the in-game UI refers to them as "they" and they're reasonably androgynous. It's literally almost nothing. And if the character IS underdeveloped, maybe they should... develop them more?
Referencing Medieval high fantasy as an invention of "white men" is just weird. Dragons and Elves and Dwarves aren't even real, but some humans having darker skin and curly hair is... unthinkable? Black people existed in medieval times, some of them lived in Europe. There are black people in Shakespeare. Simple inclusion is not some modernist political agenda. Fantasy and art should reflect reality, and non-binary people and... black people... are part of reality.
You say that there have been black characters in WoW since it's launch, but how many were in WC3? In Warcraft lore prior to the launch of WoW?
Not many, but there's only like 7 named human characters in WarCraft 3 anyway and their race/ethnicity is never particularly important. It's more about their nationality.
I guarantee you, the discussion went like this:
They needed 10 new characters. One for each race/class combination as of TBC WoW (and including Demon Hunters for obvious reasons). They probably lined up the race/class combinations they liked. Human Paladin and Orc Warrior were probably a given unless they wanted to do Orc Shaman. Night Elf Druid was probably considered but then they decided they needed the Night Elf to be a Demon Hunter. Then they probably asked "how do we make these characters distinct?" and then came up with stuff like "oh maybe the paladin and undead warlock are related." And so on and so forth.
Beyond that, I don't know how it could possibly matter that they CHOSE to make the character non-binary rather than just "oh it happened". Thrall has a hammer that fires lightning because Metzen is a big Marvel's Thor fan. He made a specific choice to include that. Is *that* forced?
I 100% agree that Guff is the Jar Jar of Hearthstone, but I take it as praise of Guff.
Ahmed Best put in one heck of a performance. The material wasn't very good, but dude did amazing with what he got, and put in so much wonderful physical work that it's a shame it was all erased for CGI. The Star Wars fanbase did Ahmed and Jake Lloyd dirty. They weren't to blame for any of the bad aspects of the film. I mean, how is it even possible to waste and squander Brian Blessed on Boss Nass? It's not even remotely fucking imaginable.
But something good and wholesome like Guff? I'm not shocked at which trolls hate him. More's the pity for the haters.
Referencing Medieval high fantasy as an invention of "white men" is just weird.
J.R.R. Tolkien created high fantasy as we know it, so it is the invention of a white man. It is based on European folklore which is about 99.99% white. The very rare occurrence of a non-indigenous European living in Europe in those times won't change these facts a simple bit.
I won't even bother replying to the rest of your post, your imaginary scenarios are childish and lack any common sense.
SI:7 Smuggler: One of the most ridiculous art descriptions we've ever written as a team. "An asian female human SI:7 secret agent deep undercover as a dragon whelp. In a bad costume, but somehow not getting discovered, hiding amongst the eggs." I love it. Good job us.
Blizzard does absolutely care about diversity quotas, here is the living proof.
Unfortunately big strong mentally-disabled male characters are trendy atm in Western media for comedy relief. Progressives love this character archetype for whatever reason. If you complain, they're liable to accuse you of ableism, meanwhile they feign-dote over the mentally challenged man and talk about him like he's a pet or something.
WTF are you on about? Are you all actually so threatened by the *single* non-binary hero, and the pair of black girls?
If you don't like Guff, whatever, I don't like him much; but he's just a big lovable goofy Tauren hippy.
It's very telling that you brought up these characters when I didn't even mention them :/
Are you trying trick me into breaking TOS or something? Pretty sad if so. Exactly the kind of trick a certain sort of person would try to play. But yes, these characters very clearly exist to meet a diversity quota. This is how companies operate now, they get paid to do it.
You are obviously the one feeling threatened/insecure if you felt the need to bring it up when nobody asked.
Who the hell ELSE could you be talking about when referring to "Forced diversity"? And what's "forced" about them? And what do you mean nobody asked? At least two posts in this topic refer to Blizzard "forcing diversity". What the hell else could that mean? And then... you went on to basically say "yes you're right, I feel those characters are forced." I don't get it.
You're quoting me but I'm not sure you're even reading the quotes, I didn't say these things you're replying to the wrong guy. Maybe you can't fathom that there's more than one person in this thread that disagrees with you?
But yeah, idk why you would just accept that some of these characters have been added simply as token representation and then their characterisation and backstory is just an afterthought. It's pretty disrespectful, all for the sake of representation. Can you name one remotely interesting thing about Varden, other than that he is a non binary mage?
I don't know what I would say about ANY hearthstone-exclusive character, they're all broad stereotypes defined by a few short lines of dialogue. And we don't even know Varden is gay. The only reference to their gender is the in-game UI refers to them as "they" and they're reasonably androgynous. It's literally almost nothing. And if the character IS underdeveloped, maybe they should... develop them more?
Referencing Medieval high fantasy as an invention of "white men" is just weird. Dragons and Elves and Dwarves aren't even real, but some humans having darker skin and curly hair is... unthinkable? Black people existed in medieval times, some of them lived in Europe. There are black people in Shakespeare. Simple inclusion is not some modernist political agenda. Fantasy and art should reflect reality, and non-binary people and... black people... are part of reality.
Varden's pretty damn gay, I mean you only need to look at him to tell, let alone the pronoun nonsense, the voice, and the unsubtle dialogue. Every other mercenary has some character quirk going for them, except this one gay bloke who at best you could say speaks like a star trek science officer for some reason. And yes, maybe they should develop the character, because as you've just agreed, all they've bothered to establish about the character is their gender. This should be enough surely to help you understand why we might be suspicious of the character's inclusion in the game at all.
I'll let your other drivel speak for itself lmao. "There are black people in Shakespeare", yes, like three of them or something. No one here said that medieval fantasy should have NO black people. We are simply wise to the reasons for inclusion of certain characters, it is not organic. It should be organic but it isn't. I sincerely hope you weren't referring to a Shakespeare adaptation you saw once that had loads of black people in it or something, that would be too stupid. The people who encourage this inorganic diversity in media are HOPING that you see these adaptations and get tricked into believing that Shakespeare, or The Witcher for example, is a story/world with a diverse range of ethnicities, etc. Your expectations are manipulated so that when the NEXT adaptation of said franchise is released, you actually get upset if there's isn't ENOUGH diversity., even though the original had very little.
Dawngrasp está inserido no jogo e na tradição como uma forma de sinalizar que a Blizzard está tomando uma posição política nas questões sociopolíticas de hoje. O personagem é desagradável para muitos simplesmente devido ao fato de que parece que foi criado por outros motivos além de criar novas histórias relacionadas a Warcraft.
Varden Dawngrasp está se referindo descaradamente a questões de gênero na vida real. Eu e muitos outros não queremos que os personagens de Warcraft sejam criados ou projetados para satisfazer qualquer agenda política da IRL.
Quanto aos Roames, não me importo com eles. Os personagens Black Warcraft existem desde o lançamento do WoW em 2004. Sua implementação é crível e bem feita.
Eu vejo de onde você está vindo, mas isso levanta uma questão. Se a mera existência de um personagem não-binário, mesmo tão inócuo como Varden, cuja identidade de gênero nunca é mencionada diretamente, é tão perturbadora para você, qual você diria que é o espaço apropriado para a representação?
Outro pôster perguntou quando em produção foi decidido que Varden seria não-binário, quando foi decidido que os Roames seriam pretos, etc. Um contraponto seria perguntar quando foi decidido que Uther seria branco? Que Arthas seja hétero? Eu diria que nunca houve uma decisão consciente sobre qualquer um deles, porque sempre foi assumido que eles seriam heterossexuais e brancos.
Você diz que houve personagens negros no WoW desde o seu lançamento, mas quantos estavam no WC3? Na tradição de Warcraft antes do lançamento do WoW?
Graças a Deus eles não fizeram isso. Caso contrário, o jogo nunca seria vendido. Personagens negros / e Mind Sick Genderless são realmente forçados em jogos de fantasia. Basta assistir a série The witcher, eles arruinaram os elfos apenas para incluir um pouco mais de gênero e cor, besteiras forçadas. A menos que os personagens negros sejam humanos, não há nada a ver com os outros (como os elfos que foram inventados de uma forma que retratam sua luz ou escuridão nos tons de pele brancos da lua/sol). Quero dizer, quem entraria no jogo e assistiria a um elfo negro ou anão negro sem rir muito? O estilo da Disney está arruinando o mundo, transformando supostos adultos em filhos varãos e permitindo mais besteiras de sjw/gênero para o mundo.
Até a cultura do cancelamento está por toda parte nessa nova agenda da irl bs no mundo. nem mesmo um jogo infantil pode sair disso. É por isso que esta guerra está piorando a cada dia. Até o presidente dos EUA está usando a cultura do cancelamento contra um grande país com armas nucleares, como não esperar merdas assim mesmo em coisas simples como um jogo infantil ou a rotina dos dias?
Binário é minha bunda. Antes disso, essas pessoas eram chamadas de andróginas. A aula de história é gratuita, você pode me agradecer depois.
hes sooooo damn cute....but i will cut his throat someday.
Dawngrasp is shoehorned into the game and lore as a way to signal that Blizzard is taking a political stance in the socio-political issues of today. The character is unlikable to many simply due to the fact that it seems as if it was created for ulterior motives other than to create new Warcraft-related lore.
Varden Dawngrasp is blatantly referencing IRL gender issues. I, and many others do not want Warcraft characters to be created or designed to satisfy any IRL political agenda.
As for the Roames, I don't mind them at all. Black Warcraft characters have existed ever since WoW launched in 2004. Their implementation is believable and well done.
I see where you're coming from, but that does beg a question. If the mere existence of a nonbinary character, even one so innocuous as Varden, whose gender identity is never even directly mentioned, is so disruptive to you, what would you say is the appropriate space for representation?
Another poster asked when in production it was decided that Varden be nonbinary, when is was decided the Roames be black, etc. A counterpoint would be to ask when it was decided the Uther be white? That Arthas be straight? I'd posit that there never was a conscious decision made on either of those because it was always assumed that they would be straight and white.
You say that there have been black characters in WoW since it's launch, but how many were in WC3? In Warcraft lore prior to the launch of WoW?
Indeed thanks for illustrating my point. It was always assumed these characters would be white because medieval high fantasy is a white invention. It stems from white culture and was created by white men. There's nothing wrong with that and there's nothing particularly amazing about it. It's just a fact. In the same way, the cast of a black panther story would be expected to be black by default.
And the straight thing. Pretty sure they know that if they went too hard with Varden in a game marketed to children they'd be in trouble. For good reason. "When was it decided Arthas be straight?"... don't be ridiculous now. For one, it was decided when his character was given a normal female love interest. In real life, non straight people don't just come up and say, "Hello, I'm so-and-so and I'm non binary". You find out later, through context clues or by asking. The Mercenary team made it their mission to establish a character was gay, before attempting to establish anything else about them.
But yeah, idk why you would just accept that some of these characters have been added simply as token representation and then their characterisation and backstory is just an afterthought. It's pretty disrespectful, all for the sake of representation. Can you name one remotely interesting thing about Varden, other than that he is a non binary mage? But of course, some people eat that right up, most often people who aren't even in the group being "represented", they just have a savior complex.
Varden's creative process looked pretty much like this:
<insert Gru meme here>
-Step 1: Add a non-binary character to your game.
-Step 2: Give him a flavor that gives a satisfying level of depth to that character and opens to potential interesting development.
-Step 3: Make him insufferable.
<looks worried at step 3>
On the other hand, Tamsin is possibly the best of all the mercs so far, and Cariel's story is actually pretty nice. You can clearly see they took far more time thinking on how to make these two characters work than pretty much any of the others (maybe Bru'kan and Xyrella, and Kurtrus, although this attempt is much more flawed than the previous two). So far the only possible token character on this is Varden, since the other candidates are actually fleshed out and have meaningful character arcs that actually contribute to the story as a whole.
P.D.: I liked Jar Jar Binks more than I like Guff, but I like Guff more than I like tauren in general, so in my books he is a win.
Click to see my Hearthstone projects:
Who the hell ELSE could you be talking about when referring to "Forced diversity"? And what's "forced" about them? And what do you mean nobody asked? At least two posts in this topic refer to Blizzard "forcing diversity". What the hell else could that mean? And then... you went on to basically say "yes you're right, I feel those characters are forced." I don't get it.
I don't know what I would say about ANY hearthstone-exclusive character, they're all broad stereotypes defined by a few short lines of dialogue. And we don't even know Varden is gay. The only reference to their gender is the in-game UI refers to them as "they" and they're reasonably androgynous. It's literally almost nothing. And if the character IS underdeveloped, maybe they should... develop them more?
Referencing Medieval high fantasy as an invention of "white men" is just weird. Dragons and Elves and Dwarves aren't even real, but some humans having darker skin and curly hair is... unthinkable? Black people existed in medieval times, some of them lived in Europe. There are black people in Shakespeare. Simple inclusion is not some modernist political agenda. Fantasy and art should reflect reality, and non-binary people and... black people... are part of reality.
Not many, but there's only like 7 named human characters in WarCraft 3 anyway and their race/ethnicity is never particularly important. It's more about their nationality.
I guarantee you, the discussion went like this:
They needed 10 new characters. One for each race/class combination as of TBC WoW (and including Demon Hunters for obvious reasons). They probably lined up the race/class combinations they liked. Human Paladin and Orc Warrior were probably a given unless they wanted to do Orc Shaman. Night Elf Druid was probably considered but then they decided they needed the Night Elf to be a Demon Hunter. Then they probably asked "how do we make these characters distinct?" and then came up with stuff like "oh maybe the paladin and undead warlock are related." And so on and so forth.
Beyond that, I don't know how it could possibly matter that they CHOSE to make the character non-binary rather than just "oh it happened". Thrall has a hammer that fires lightning because Metzen is a big Marvel's Thor fan. He made a specific choice to include that. Is *that* forced?
I 100% agree that Guff is the Jar Jar of Hearthstone, but I take it as praise of Guff.
Ahmed Best put in one heck of a performance. The material wasn't very good, but dude did amazing with what he got, and put in so much wonderful physical work that it's a shame it was all erased for CGI. The Star Wars fanbase did Ahmed and Jake Lloyd dirty. They weren't to blame for any of the bad aspects of the film. I mean, how is it even possible to waste and squander Brian Blessed on Boss Nass? It's not even remotely fucking imaginable.
But something good and wholesome like Guff? I'm not shocked at which trolls hate him. More's the pity for the haters.
J.R.R. Tolkien created high fantasy as we know it, so it is the invention of a white man. It is based on European folklore which is about 99.99% white. The very rare occurrence of a non-indigenous European living in Europe in those times won't change these facts a simple bit.
I won't even bother replying to the rest of your post, your imaginary scenarios are childish and lack any common sense.
https://twitter.com/Songbird_HS/status/1492240154106339328
Blizzard does absolutely care about diversity quotas, here is the living proof.
You're quoting me but I'm not sure you're even reading the quotes, I didn't say these things you're replying to the wrong guy. Maybe you can't fathom that there's more than one person in this thread that disagrees with you?
Varden's pretty damn gay, I mean you only need to look at him to tell, let alone the pronoun nonsense, the voice, and the unsubtle dialogue. Every other mercenary has some character quirk going for them, except this one gay bloke who at best you could say speaks like a star trek science officer for some reason. And yes, maybe they should develop the character, because as you've just agreed, all they've bothered to establish about the character is their gender. This should be enough surely to help you understand why we might be suspicious of the character's inclusion in the game at all.
I'll let your other drivel speak for itself lmao. "There are black people in Shakespeare", yes, like three of them or something. No one here said that medieval fantasy should have NO black people. We are simply wise to the reasons for inclusion of certain characters, it is not organic. It should be organic but it isn't. I sincerely hope you weren't referring to a Shakespeare adaptation you saw once that had loads of black people in it or something, that would be too stupid. The people who encourage this inorganic diversity in media are HOPING that you see these adaptations and get tricked into believing that Shakespeare, or The Witcher for example, is a story/world with a diverse range of ethnicities, etc. Your expectations are manipulated so that when the NEXT adaptation of said franchise is released, you actually get upset if there's isn't ENOUGH diversity., even though the original had very little.
Graças a Deus eles não fizeram isso. Caso contrário, o jogo nunca seria vendido. Personagens negros / e Mind Sick Genderless são realmente forçados em jogos de fantasia. Basta assistir a série The witcher, eles arruinaram os elfos apenas para incluir um pouco mais de gênero e cor, besteiras forçadas.
A menos que os personagens negros sejam humanos, não há nada a ver com os outros (como os elfos que foram inventados de uma forma que retratam sua luz ou escuridão nos tons de pele brancos da lua/sol).
Quero dizer, quem entraria no jogo e assistiria a um elfo negro ou anão negro sem rir muito?
O estilo da Disney está arruinando o mundo, transformando supostos adultos em filhos varãos e permitindo mais besteiras de sjw/gênero para o mundo.
Até a cultura do cancelamento está por toda parte nessa nova agenda da irl bs no mundo. nem mesmo um jogo infantil pode sair disso.
É por isso que esta guerra está piorando a cada dia. Até o presidente dos EUA está usando a cultura do cancelamento contra um grande país com armas nucleares, como não esperar merdas assim mesmo em coisas simples como um jogo infantil ou a rotina dos dias?
Binário é minha bunda. Antes disso, essas pessoas eram chamadas de andróginas. A aula de história é gratuita, você pode me agradecer depois.
He's just overly kind and loving, he's not mentally disabled as some posts suggest.
This thread went downhill severely and is no longer even remotely within the forum rules. Closign this here.
CLOSED.
If you see a bad post on the forum use the report function under it, so I or someone else of the moderation team can take care of it!