So. The nerfs are in and rogue is getting hit (no surprise there). What's more of a surprise to me is that rather than changing the interaction between Maestra of the Masquerade and Wildpaw Gnoll / Double Agent (which is quite frankly bullshit), they've chosen to nerf Wildpaw Gnoll.
Both of these cards are arguably quite fair (without said interaction) and require a particular deck design to gain maximum value.
What do you think the motivation is for the path Blizz has chosen?
I can only think of two possibilities.
1) Blizz is trying to minimise the amount of dust they refund, and as Maestra is a legend == more dust.
2) Blizz has internal data and the change to gnoll is the only way possible to keep the deck in check whilst keeping it viable
For me the problem with the nerf stratgey they've chosen is that Wildpaw Gnoll is now a dead card outside of a Maestra deck, and unlikely to work well even in a thief-rogue-style deck it was intended for.
Those cards were printed -specifically- to make Maestra mean.. well, anything except being a pure meme card, so it's better to nerf the support cards than to outright kill what makes Maestra playable at all in the first place.
Exactly, they even stated in the dev comments that Gnoll was meant to be a payoff card for Maestra decks
a payoff card doesn't mean a Turn 1 Yeti with Rush which is consistent, a payoff card at it's very definition is a card that has a prerequisite and can NOT have a immediate impact.
They have their favorites, Rogue, Warrior, Warlock, and they have their least favorite child in Priest. You'll notice any OP interactions in the favorites are reluctantly fixed, if ever, and if there is ever any hint of power in Priest they nerf immediately.
There are two factors that need to be considered when balancing a game. The obvious one is every deck's win% and wether it's polarized or not.
The one most players forget about even though the developers often mention it is the fun factor. How fun is it to play a card vs how unfun it is to have it played against you. The Maestra interaction is cool and they want to keep the card playable, but they don't want "turn one win" games to be so common that people get frustrated.
To me I think they've hit the wrong card (not from a power perspective but from a "feel" perspective). You just shouldn't be able to do bonkers early game stuff because you included a card in your deck that you've neither drawn nor played. It basically breaks the rules* of the game. I have nothing against the rules being broken (it would be a fairly dull game if it was just minions bumping), but you should have to work to make it happen.
I also really hope they stop printing cards that you never want to draw, which have meaningful effects in the game (such as Patches and Maestra). They've done a few so far, and the only ones I think worked reasonably well are Genn, Baku and Xanesh, as they impose fairly drastic deck building limitations in exchange for a pay-off.
To answer my own question, cynical me thinks they've nerfed the gnoll to keep the dust refund low!
*by rules I mean the idea that power level scales in proportion to mana cost. Early game stuff should have a minimal impact (as it costs little mana) while late game stuff should be more game defining.
Deleting an intentional mechanic from the game entirely as the first thing you do if it is too powerful is so nonsensical that I'm genuinely impressed some of you are saying it with a straight face. That can be a thing to consider doing if it it continues causing the same problem beyond this expansion and this nerf, but now? Absolutely not. Gnoll was intended to be a pay-off for Maestra from the start, so the correct thing to do is to try and make it work. You don't throw away card design as a kneejerk reaction to an imbalance unless the problems go far beyond power level. Which Gnoll really doesn't.
Deleting an intentional mechanic from the game entirely as the first thing you do if it is too powerful is so nonsensical that I'm genuinely impressed some of you are saying it with a straight face. That can be a thing to consider doing if it it continues causing the same problem beyond this expansion and this nerf, but now? Absolutely not. Gnoll was intended to be a pay-off for Maestra from the start, so the correct thing to do is to try and make it work. You don't throw away card design as a kneejerk reaction to an imbalance unless the problems go far beyond power level. Which Gnoll really doesn't.
Did you read anything I just posted above? They released Maestra as a meme card (with zero support) and now they've printed cards which break part of the game. Why? Well - it will make people craft Maestra. (i.e. Blizz make money). Now, I'm not against Blizz making money, but Blizz do have a reputation now for making things busted, making people invest then nerfing the cheap cards. They've done it multiple times in this game.
As for your comment suggesting this was all part of some plan, I'm not sure I agree with that. I know Blizz like us to believe that there's multiple expansions all planned out for the next 2 years, but in reality there have been plenty of shit cards which were clearly shoe-horned in at the last minute (or changed entirely) and cards which have no synergy with the current cards (and only see any potential synergy in wild). Neither of these outcomes supports the "grand plan".
The nerf strategy they've decided on basically kills gnoll as a card outside of Maestra decks, and that's a shame. It would be nice if we got some viable theif archetype for rogue (that doesn't involve cards which are obviously busted in their current implementation).
p.s. the only thing I hate more than stupid nerfs, is stupid nerfs which take a week to be implemented. Nothing more frustrating than facing cards Blizz themselves have deemed too powerful
The nerf algorithm has always prioritized lower rarity and older cards whenever possible. If they have to choose between a legendary card and a rare, they always nerf the rare. In some cases, like Scabbs this time, they have no choice but to nerf a legendary. It's an economic decision, and I can't blame them for that.
In this case, the OP is right. Knoll was fun in thief rogue and deathrattle thief rogue where thief cards were required. This dumb nerf means Knoll is only viable now with Maestra. It's a shame.
Deleting an intentional mechanic from the game entirely as the first thing you do if it is too powerful is so nonsensical that I'm genuinely impressed some of you are saying it with a straight face. That can be a thing to consider doing if it it continues causing the same problem beyond this expansion and this nerf, but now? Absolutely not. Gnoll was intended to be a pay-off for Maestra from the start, so the correct thing to do is to try and make it work. You don't throw away card design as a kneejerk reaction to an imbalance unless the problems go far beyond power level.
I respectfully disagree. Creating a "payoff card" for a "Start of Game" trigger with no deckbuilding restriction is a bad idea. It's the kind of thing that shouldn't exist in the game AT ALL. I get that making Gnoll a payoff for Maestra was, according to Blizzard, the intent of their design, but their intent is bad and they should feel bad. They should have abandoned that intent and pivoted to making Gnoll a payoff for playing actual burgle rogue cards.
nerfing scabs was fucking dumb you want get rid of wepon 💥 to the nerf the poison or wepons they use not the card that give rogue a chance to win the game
I don't understand why everyone keeps calling the interaction bullshit. You may not have expected it, but that doesn't mean it's bad. It is certainly not unintended.
You are the class indicated by your portrait, period. If you didn't understand that, you do now, and you have Maestra to thank for that piece of wisdom.
The only problem with the interaction is that they underestimated how easy it would be to get the Gnoll out in the first couple of turns using things like Tradeable cards and Secret Passage. Mana cheat cards like Gnoll are ALWAYS problematic. They ALWAYS end up breaking the game, and they nearly always end up getting nerfed because Team 5 has NEVER been able to balance them well.
So yes, Gnoll is the correct nerf here, and if any mechanism involved in this debacle is a "bad idea," it's mana cheat.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Why, you never expected justice from a company, did you? They have neither a soul to lose nor a body to kick." -- Lady Saba Holland
They want maestro to be a powerful card...how about you stop the aggro meta. Someone muliganning because they think they're fighting a control warrior should be the pay off of using it when it turns out they're fighting an aggro rogue. The whole problem with Maestro is exactly that, blizz's terrible job balancing the meta to be anything but hyper aggro. Double Agent and Gnolls interactions shouldn't need to exist with it.
I think a better topic is how the juggernaut can do 15 mana worth of random crap a turn.
Have to say over and over again. Since the departure of Ben Brode and most of the other devs that kept the game going on, Hearthstone never was the same. It's already a dead game for a lot of months, they even made a revival of Pirate Warrior and gave power to some BS Odd Face hunter. New devs are probably bots or children, or they are just incompetent. Anyway, u're better off doing some better to ur life, this game is for ppl with life issues or children that hasn't anything to do besides go to school and live.
Have to say over and over again. Since the departure of Ben Brode and most of the other devs that kept the game going on, Hearthstone never was the same. It's already a dead game for a lot of months, they even made a revival of Pirate Warrior and gave power to some BS Odd Face hunter. New devs are probably bots or children, or they are just incompetent. Anyway, u're better off doing some better to ur life, this game is for ppl with life issues or children that hasn't anything to do besides go to school and live.
No one cares about Wild, and that has nothing to do with Ben Brode or anyone else who left.
Insulting the people who play the game on a fan site for people who play the game is only going to get you ignored.
nerfing scabs was fucking dumb you want get rid of wepon 💥 to the nerf the poison or wepons they use not the card that give rogue a chance to win the game
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"because democracy basically means government by the people, of the people, for the people, but the people are retarded. So let us say: government by the retarded, for the retarded, of the retarded." - Osho Rajneesh
I don't understand why everyone keeps calling the interaction bullshit. You may not have expected it, but that doesn't mean it's bad. It is certainly not unintended.
...
So yes, Gnoll is the correct nerf here, and if any mechanism involved in this debacle is a "bad idea," it's mana cheat.
No, mana cheat is not the only bad idea here.
I agree with you that it was intentional, because in the patch notes Blizzard says it was intended to be a payoff card for playing Maestra. I don't see why Blizz would lie about their intent here.
But a payoff card for a "start of game" card with no deckbuilding restriction is, by its very nature... well, you said it, bullshit. It's an invalid intent, regardless of whether the execution is good or not.
Have to say over and over again. Since the departure of Ben Brode and most of the other devs that kept the game going on, Hearthstone never was the same. It's already a dead game for a lot of months, they even made a revival of Pirate Warrior and gave power to some BS Odd Face hunter. New devs are probably bots or children, or they are just incompetent. Anyway, u're better off doing some better to ur life, this game is for ppl with life issues or children that hasn't anything to do besides go to school and live.
No one cares about Wild, and that has nothing to do with Ben Brode or anyone else who left.
Insulting the people who play the game on a fan site for people who play the game is only going to get you ignored.
With respect, quite a few people care about Wild. And that would appear to include the dev team if the latest balance patch is any indication, as most of the changes were ostensibly directed towards balancing wild.
There are quite a few people on this site that play wild as well: maybe you ought to follow your own advice and try not to insinuate that the format that they play and enjoy is irrelevant.
So. The nerfs are in and rogue is getting hit (no surprise there). What's more of a surprise to me is that rather than changing the interaction between Maestra of the Masquerade and Wildpaw Gnoll / Double Agent (which is quite frankly bullshit), they've chosen to nerf Wildpaw Gnoll.
Both of these cards are arguably quite fair (without said interaction) and require a particular deck design to gain maximum value.
What do you think the motivation is for the path Blizz has chosen?
I can only think of two possibilities.
1) Blizz is trying to minimise the amount of dust they refund, and as Maestra is a legend == more dust.
2) Blizz has internal data and the change to gnoll is the only way possible to keep the deck in check whilst keeping it viable
For me the problem with the nerf stratgey they've chosen is that Wildpaw Gnoll is now a dead card outside of a Maestra deck, and unlikely to work well even in a thief-rogue-style deck it was intended for.
Thoughts?
2) Blizz genuinely believes
Those cards were printed -specifically- to make Maestra mean.. well, anything except being a pure meme card, so it's better to nerf the support cards than to outright kill what makes Maestra playable at all in the first place.
Exactly, they even stated in the dev comments that Gnoll was meant to be a payoff card for Maestra decks
a payoff card doesn't mean a Turn 1 Yeti with Rush which is consistent, a payoff card at it's very definition is a card that has a prerequisite and can NOT have a immediate impact.
examples of payoff cards
- Kargal Battlescar
- Bearon Gla'shear
- Soulciologist Malicia
Gnoll is busted beyond belief, just swallow it up and stop whining.
They have their favorites, Rogue, Warrior, Warlock, and they have their least favorite child in Priest. You'll notice any OP interactions in the favorites are reluctantly fixed, if ever, and if there is ever any hint of power in Priest they nerf immediately.
There are two factors that need to be considered when balancing a game. The obvious one is every deck's win% and wether it's polarized or not.
The one most players forget about even though the developers often mention it is the fun factor. How fun is it to play a card vs how unfun it is to have it played against you. The Maestra interaction is cool and they want to keep the card playable, but they don't want "turn one win" games to be so common that people get frustrated.
To me I think they've hit the wrong card (not from a power perspective but from a "feel" perspective). You just shouldn't be able to do bonkers early game stuff because you included a card in your deck that you've neither drawn nor played. It basically breaks the rules* of the game. I have nothing against the rules being broken (it would be a fairly dull game if it was just minions bumping), but you should have to work to make it happen.
I also really hope they stop printing cards that you never want to draw, which have meaningful effects in the game (such as Patches and Maestra). They've done a few so far, and the only ones I think worked reasonably well are Genn, Baku and Xanesh, as they impose fairly drastic deck building limitations in exchange for a pay-off.
To answer my own question, cynical me thinks they've nerfed the gnoll to keep the dust refund low!
*by rules I mean the idea that power level scales in proportion to mana cost. Early game stuff should have a minimal impact (as it costs little mana) while late game stuff should be more game defining.
Deleting an intentional mechanic from the game entirely as the first thing you do if it is too powerful is so nonsensical that I'm genuinely impressed some of you are saying it with a straight face. That can be a thing to consider doing if it it continues causing the same problem beyond this expansion and this nerf, but now? Absolutely not. Gnoll was intended to be a pay-off for Maestra from the start, so the correct thing to do is to try and make it work. You don't throw away card design as a kneejerk reaction to an imbalance unless the problems go far beyond power level. Which Gnoll really doesn't.
Did you read anything I just posted above? They released Maestra as a meme card (with zero support) and now they've printed cards which break part of the game. Why? Well - it will make people craft Maestra. (i.e. Blizz make money). Now, I'm not against Blizz making money, but Blizz do have a reputation now for making things busted, making people invest then nerfing the cheap cards. They've done it multiple times in this game.
As for your comment suggesting this was all part of some plan, I'm not sure I agree with that. I know Blizz like us to believe that there's multiple expansions all planned out for the next 2 years, but in reality there have been plenty of shit cards which were clearly shoe-horned in at the last minute (or changed entirely) and cards which have no synergy with the current cards (and only see any potential synergy in wild). Neither of these outcomes supports the "grand plan".
The nerf strategy they've decided on basically kills gnoll as a card outside of Maestra decks, and that's a shame. It would be nice if we got some viable theif archetype for rogue (that doesn't involve cards which are obviously busted in their current implementation).
p.s. the only thing I hate more than stupid nerfs, is stupid nerfs which take a week to be implemented. Nothing more frustrating than facing cards Blizz themselves have deemed too powerful
They have been targeting the lower cost card for years. That is why you have seen so little action on quests.
The nerf algorithm has always prioritized lower rarity and older cards whenever possible. If they have to choose between a legendary card and a rare, they always nerf the rare. In some cases, like Scabbs this time, they have no choice but to nerf a legendary. It's an economic decision, and I can't blame them for that.
In this case, the OP is right. Knoll was fun in thief rogue and deathrattle thief rogue where thief cards were required. This dumb nerf means Knoll is only viable now with Maestra. It's a shame.
I respectfully disagree. Creating a "payoff card" for a "Start of Game" trigger with no deckbuilding restriction is a bad idea. It's the kind of thing that shouldn't exist in the game AT ALL. I get that making Gnoll a payoff for Maestra was, according to Blizzard, the intent of their design, but their intent is bad and they should feel bad. They should have abandoned that intent and pivoted to making Gnoll a payoff for playing actual burgle rogue cards.
nerfing scabs was fucking dumb you want get rid of wepon 💥 to the nerf the poison or wepons they use not the card that give rogue a chance to win the game
I don't understand why everyone keeps calling the interaction bullshit. You may not have expected it, but that doesn't mean it's bad. It is certainly not unintended.
You are the class indicated by your portrait, period. If you didn't understand that, you do now, and you have Maestra to thank for that piece of wisdom.
The only problem with the interaction is that they underestimated how easy it would be to get the Gnoll out in the first couple of turns using things like Tradeable cards and Secret Passage. Mana cheat cards like Gnoll are ALWAYS problematic. They ALWAYS end up breaking the game, and they nearly always end up getting nerfed because Team 5 has NEVER been able to balance them well.
So yes, Gnoll is the correct nerf here, and if any mechanism involved in this debacle is a "bad idea," it's mana cheat.
"Why, you never expected justice from a company, did you? They have neither a soul to lose nor a body to kick." -- Lady Saba Holland
They want maestro to be a powerful card...how about you stop the aggro meta. Someone muliganning because they think they're fighting a control warrior should be the pay off of using it when it turns out they're fighting an aggro rogue. The whole problem with Maestro is exactly that, blizz's terrible job balancing the meta to be anything but hyper aggro. Double Agent and Gnolls interactions shouldn't need to exist with it.
I think a better topic is how the juggernaut can do 15 mana worth of random crap a turn.
Have to say over and over again. Since the departure of Ben Brode and most of the other devs that kept the game going on, Hearthstone never was the same. It's already a dead game for a lot of months, they even made a revival of Pirate Warrior and gave power to some BS Odd Face hunter. New devs are probably bots or children, or they are just incompetent. Anyway, u're better off doing some better to ur life, this game is for ppl with life issues or children that hasn't anything to do besides go to school and live.
No one cares about Wild, and that has nothing to do with Ben Brode or anyone else who left.
Insulting the people who play the game on a fan site for people who play the game is only going to get you ignored.
"Why, you never expected justice from a company, did you? They have neither a soul to lose nor a body to kick." -- Lady Saba Holland
"because democracy basically means government by the people, of the people, for the people, but the people are retarded. So let us say: government by the retarded, for the retarded, of the retarded." - Osho Rajneesh
No, mana cheat is not the only bad idea here.
I agree with you that it was intentional, because in the patch notes Blizzard says it was intended to be a payoff card for playing Maestra. I don't see why Blizz would lie about their intent here.
But a payoff card for a "start of game" card with no deckbuilding restriction is, by its very nature... well, you said it, bullshit. It's an invalid intent, regardless of whether the execution is good or not.
With respect, quite a few people care about Wild. And that would appear to include the dev team if the latest balance patch is any indication, as most of the changes were ostensibly directed towards balancing wild.
There are quite a few people on this site that play wild as well: maybe you ought to follow your own advice and try not to insinuate that the format that they play and enjoy is irrelevant.