So i’ve been seeing the new reports going around about the Burgle Rogue archetype taking over high legend and allegedly having an out-of-control winrate. This is likely going to lead to a nerf to Gnoll, which would probably be fair, but what’s confusing to me is that i’ve never felt like the deck was oppressive in any way either when playing it or playing against it. In fact, i saw a Zeddy video (yes, he’s awful, i know) about the state of the deck this morning and noticed almost all the comments were stating the deck wasn’t really a problem at all. I also haven’t seen major hate for it on this forum the way I did for the Demon Seed, Mage Quest, Pirate Warrior, or even Garrote. Does anyone here actually find the deck to be a menace in standard?
At lower levels it may not be a problem because people are making a lot of micro mistakes and don't play the deck optimally. However at legend it is one of the top performing decks because it can have an explosive start, never runs out of resources and has a lot of win conditions, including insane burst from hand.
I don't find the deck to be that big of a deal either, until it comes to Mr. Smite + Shadowstep shenanigans. And since Mr. Smite is what most people dislike about Quest Warrior also, he might be the card to get a nerf. (maybe?)
At lower levels it may not be a problem because people are making a lot of micro mistakes and don't play the deck optimally. However at legend it is one of the top performing decks because it can have an explosive start, never runs out of resources and has a lot of win conditions, including insane burst from hand.
Hmm you’re probably correct in that i’m not actually seeing the potential it has in Diamond. I think J_Alexander is the person who initially thought up the “Perfect 30” list with Prep that people have been passing around. I’m gonna see what he’s been doing since i think he’s #2 legend as of right now
So i’ve been seeing the new reports going around about the Burgle Rogue archetype taking over high legend and allegedly having an out-of-control winrate. This is likely going to lead to a nerf to Gnoll, which would probably be fair, but what’s confusing to me is that i’ve never felt like the deck was oppressive in any way either when playing it or playing against it. In fact, i saw a Zeddy video (yes, he’s awful, i know) about the state of the deck this morning and noticed almost all the comments were stating the deck wasn’t really a problem at all. I also haven’t seen major hate for it on this forum the way I did for the Demon Seed, Mage Quest, Pirate Warrior, or even Garrote. Does anyone here actually find the deck to be a menace in standard?
Zeddy think it is I don’t think it’s big enough deal to get nerfed as soon as rogue nerf warlock warrior all over again. So pick ur poison
I don't find the deck to be that big of a deal either, until it comes to Mr. Smite + Shadowstep shenanigans. And since Mr. Smite is what most people dislike about Quest Warrior also, he might be the card to get a nerf. (maybe?)
Pretty much this.... If they can nerf this combo, Rogue will lose the OTK in the late-game and will have to find slower alternative.. The archetype is already having bad win rates against slower archetypes (Warlock, Druid, Priest, etc.)
Lol what? The deck is favored against everything in the game except handlock. And let's not forget about how degen weapon rogue is. It's like 30% of the meta at legend and has hardly any weakness thanks to scabbs clearing boards on turn 7. It's only starting to trickle down to the lower ranks. Rogue rn is highly over tuned and imo needs to be hit or else it will be roguestone until rotation.
Two 4/5s on board on turn one, completely balanced. When will Blizz realize that "cost less" is a bad idea.
This sort of extreme unlikely scenario is irrelevant. Might as well bring up multiple scenarios where the gnolls are stick at the bottom of your deck. Not to say that it couldn’t be changed to cost 6 or be adjusted into a 4/4 and still be fair
Scabbs hero itself is a strong powerful card, but it applies to all Rogue archetypes, not just Burgle Rogue. So don't call out Burgle Rogue if you want to call the nerf on the hero card, because they might nerf Burgle-related cards and make Burgle Rogue unplayable.....
I dunno if I am just unlucky but in early every matchup I See gnoll in turn 2 or at least on 3 sometimes even two of them.
Turn 2 is definitly to early for a 4/5 with rush to hit the board, even as handlock this could make you struggle. With other decks it's quite often the games end.
So a slight nerf to gnoll should be fine, maybe one mana cost... BUT in general Scabbs is way to cost efficient. Rogue skyrocked through Scabbs, therefore I'd adjust Scabbs first and see what happens.
I'd wish the full vanish would be change into something like, remove 2 random enemy minions back on hand. This would still be super strong but at least you'd had a Chance to play around it by going wide.
For me, the main issue with the deck is that having a card in the deck you don't play (and never want to draw) makes such a big difference to how the early game plays out Maestra of the Masquerade. 1 or 0 mana gnolls on turn 2/3 and garaunteed 2 x 3/3's for 3 mana can't have been what was intended when they printed these cards, as there's nothing remotely balanced about them in their current state. Even in the late game they still provide massive tempo swings particulalry off the (imo) busted card Secret Passage. If they functioned without interacting with Maestra of the Masquerade then I think they would be fine and she would be dropped from the list (even though messing with your opponents mulligan does impact the game to some extent). I do really wish Blizz would stop printing cards you never want to draw or play (Genn, Baku, Patches etc.) - it's a card game - you're meant to draw and play cards...
The only other issue with the deck that I have is the fact that Edwin, Defias Kingpin can be massively buffed in hand and the fact that he's a pirate and Mr. Smite exists. This gives the deck insane burst damage on top of very strong early tempo, and now that rogues also have a tempo board clear Shadowcrafter Scabbs as well, the deck doesn't have too many weaknesses imo. I kinda feel he's very undercosted based on the power of the battlecry but on the flip side the hero power doesn't scale super well into the late game a lot of the time (but does facilitate the burst damage from hand).
edit: I also think trading a class card should break the disguise because, well, it breaks the disguise....
Two 4/5s on board on turn one, completely balanced. When will Blizz realize that "cost less" is a bad idea.
This sort of extreme unlikely scenario is irrelevant. Might as well bring up multiple scenarios where the gnolls are stick at the bottom of your deck. Not to say that it couldn’t be changed to cost 6 or be adjusted into a 4/4 and still be fair
4 out of my last 20 games against rougue. 10 other had one 4/5 on turn one which is still quite powerfull. And normally I wouldn't count extreme scenarios either but that's rogue we're talking about, it can cicle through tons of cards for free/nearly free so it's not extreme at all.
There are exactly 3 cards that carry the entire rogue class alone right now:
-Secret Passage
Broken since Day1 and imho the most powerful carddraw in the history of HS. As noted 1 Mio. Times, the generated Cards shoult not remain in your Hand. But its the least critical card and i have doubst, that rogue woul no longer exist if Secret Passage gets a nerf. So i dont know about that. Sometimes its okay if classes have access to broken cards - if there arent too many of them
-0 Mana 4/5 Rush Turn 1 / 2
Needs a nerf. Im 100% sure they will rise the cost next Patch. If you have a bad mulligan and no answer (i mean, what is a 1 or 2 Mana answer to a 4/5 rush !?), its simply GG
-Hero Card
Gives Rogue a Board clear (+Tempo) wich the class should never have because this contradicts the class identity. This was what the devs said when Vanish was removed from Standard. Rogue is fast, rogue is deadly, rogue is agile, rogue can kill single targets - but never should be able to clear a full board. (Unless they discovering some shit)
Gives Rogue a Board clear (+Tempo) wich the class should never have because this contradicts the class identity. This was what the devs said when Vanish was removed from Standard.
Guess you haven't noticed the current design team has been ignoring class identity across the board lately. What was said in the past has no bearing on what is happening now.
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"Why, you never expected justice from a company, did you? They have neither a soul to lose nor a body to kick." -- Lady Saba Holland
The Maestra of the Masquerade interaction with Wildpaw Gnoll (and Double Agent, to a lesser extent) is really quite bullshit. The Gnolls are probably fair without it, if you have to add cards from other classes to your hand through various actual burgle effects. I don't mind free 4/5 rush minions, if you have to go through a reasonable effort to get them.
Devout Pupil, for example, can be really strong, but you have to actually work for it over a few turns to get them free. That's a semblance of balance. Simply having Maestra in your deck to get free Gnolls, however, is not balanced, because there's no effort. It just happens, but it shouldn't.
Actually even with Maestra there is some effort required to get them down to 0 early. (1) add an otherwise bad card to your deck, (2) pass the first turn and sometimes the 2nd turn too (or at best just trade away a card). Running Maestra makes everything worse: early, mid or late game topdecks, passage. Not playing your cards for 1-2 turns also hurts a lot vs other fast decks. here the rush ability of the gnoll is key as it allows the deck to recover from the slow start.
My opinion: Gnoll to 6, remove rush or make it 4 health would all be reasonable nerfs that would have an impact on the deck
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So i’ve been seeing the new reports going around about the Burgle Rogue archetype taking over high legend and allegedly having an out-of-control winrate. This is likely going to lead to a nerf to Gnoll, which would probably be fair, but what’s confusing to me is that i’ve never felt like the deck was oppressive in any way either when playing it or playing against it. In fact, i saw a Zeddy video (yes, he’s awful, i know) about the state of the deck this morning and noticed almost all the comments were stating the deck wasn’t really a problem at all. I also haven’t seen major hate for it on this forum the way I did for the Demon Seed, Mage Quest, Pirate Warrior, or even Garrote. Does anyone here actually find the deck to be a menace in standard?
At lower levels it may not be a problem because people are making a lot of micro mistakes and don't play the deck optimally. However at legend it is one of the top performing decks because it can have an explosive start, never runs out of resources and has a lot of win conditions, including insane burst from hand.
I don't find the deck to be that big of a deal either, until it comes to Mr. Smite + Shadowstep shenanigans. And since Mr. Smite is what most people dislike about Quest Warrior also, he might be the card to get a nerf. (maybe?)
Hmm you’re probably correct in that i’m not actually seeing the potential it has in Diamond. I think J_Alexander is the person who initially thought up the “Perfect 30” list with Prep that people have been passing around. I’m gonna see what he’s been doing since i think he’s #2 legend as of right now
Zeddy think it is I don’t think it’s big enough deal to get nerfed as soon as rogue nerf warlock warrior all over again. So pick ur poison
Pretty much this.... If they can nerf this combo, Rogue will lose the OTK in the late-game and will have to find slower alternative.. The archetype is already having bad win rates against slower archetypes (Warlock, Druid, Priest, etc.)
I don't think the Gnoll needs a nerf yet....
Lol what? The deck is favored against everything in the game except handlock. And let's not forget about how degen weapon rogue is. It's like 30% of the meta at legend and has hardly any weakness thanks to scabbs clearing boards on turn 7. It's only starting to trickle down to the lower ranks. Rogue rn is highly over tuned and imo needs to be hit or else it will be roguestone until rotation.
Two 4/5s on board on turn one, completely balanced. When will Blizz realize that "cost less" is a bad idea.
It's called a highroll. I've played the deck a few dozen times, and I never got two gnolls on turn one, i got them on turn 2 a few times though.
This sort of extreme unlikely scenario is irrelevant. Might as well bring up multiple scenarios where the gnolls are stick at the bottom of your deck. Not to say that it couldn’t be changed to cost 6 or be adjusted into a 4/4 and still be fair
Scabbs hero itself is a strong powerful card, but it applies to all Rogue archetypes, not just Burgle Rogue. So don't call out Burgle Rogue if you want to call the nerf on the hero card, because they might nerf Burgle-related cards and make Burgle Rogue unplayable.....
Simple fix would be to raise the 4/5 rush guy one more mana, maybe even two mana.
And have smite give charge to all "other" pirates. This would help in pirate warrior as well.
Outside burgle Rogue, poison Rogue is also way too good in higher ranks.
The best way to nerf Rogue is nerfing the 4/5 to 7 mana and scabbs hero card to be nerfed to 8/9 mana.
I dunno if I am just unlucky but in early every matchup I See gnoll in turn 2 or at least on 3 sometimes even two of them.
Turn 2 is definitly to early for a 4/5 with rush to hit the board, even as handlock this could make you struggle. With other decks it's quite often the games end.
So a slight nerf to gnoll should be fine, maybe one mana cost... BUT in general Scabbs is way to cost efficient. Rogue skyrocked through Scabbs, therefore I'd adjust Scabbs first and see what happens.
I'd wish the full vanish would be change into something like, remove 2 random enemy minions back on hand. This would still be super strong but at least you'd had a Chance to play around it by going wide.
For me, the main issue with the deck is that having a card in the deck you don't play (and never want to draw) makes such a big difference to how the early game plays out Maestra of the Masquerade. 1 or 0 mana gnolls on turn 2/3 and garaunteed 2 x 3/3's for 3 mana can't have been what was intended when they printed these cards, as there's nothing remotely balanced about them in their current state. Even in the late game they still provide massive tempo swings particulalry off the (imo) busted card Secret Passage. If they functioned without interacting with Maestra of the Masquerade then I think they would be fine and she would be dropped from the list (even though messing with your opponents mulligan does impact the game to some extent). I do really wish Blizz would stop printing cards you never want to draw or play (Genn, Baku, Patches etc.) - it's a card game - you're meant to draw and play cards...
The only other issue with the deck that I have is the fact that Edwin, Defias Kingpin can be massively buffed in hand and the fact that he's a pirate and Mr. Smite exists. This gives the deck insane burst damage on top of very strong early tempo, and now that rogues also have a tempo board clear Shadowcrafter Scabbs as well, the deck doesn't have too many weaknesses imo. I kinda feel he's very undercosted based on the power of the battlecry but on the flip side the hero power doesn't scale super well into the late game a lot of the time (but does facilitate the burst damage from hand).
edit: I also think trading a class card should break the disguise because, well, it breaks the disguise....
4 out of my last 20 games against rougue. 10 other had one 4/5 on turn one which is still quite powerfull. And normally I wouldn't count extreme scenarios either but that's rogue we're talking about, it can cicle through tons of cards for free/nearly free so it's not extreme at all.
There are exactly 3 cards that carry the entire rogue class alone right now:
-Secret Passage
Broken since Day1 and imho the most powerful carddraw in the history of HS. As noted 1 Mio. Times, the generated Cards shoult not remain in your Hand. But its the least critical card and i have doubst, that rogue woul no longer exist if Secret Passage gets a nerf. So i dont know about that. Sometimes its okay if classes have access to broken cards - if there arent too many of them
-0 Mana 4/5 Rush Turn 1 / 2
Needs a nerf. Im 100% sure they will rise the cost next Patch. If you have a bad mulligan and no answer (i mean, what is a 1 or 2 Mana answer to a 4/5 rush !?), its simply GG
-Hero Card
Gives Rogue a Board clear (+Tempo) wich the class should never have because this contradicts the class identity. This was what the devs said when Vanish was removed from Standard. Rogue is fast, rogue is deadly, rogue is agile, rogue can kill single targets - but never should be able to clear a full board. (Unless they discovering some shit)
Guess you haven't noticed the current design team has been ignoring class identity across the board lately. What was said in the past has no bearing on what is happening now.
"Why, you never expected justice from a company, did you? They have neither a soul to lose nor a body to kick." -- Lady Saba Holland
The Maestra of the Masquerade interaction with Wildpaw Gnoll (and Double Agent, to a lesser extent) is really quite bullshit. The Gnolls are probably fair without it, if you have to add cards from other classes to your hand through various actual burgle effects. I don't mind free 4/5 rush minions, if you have to go through a reasonable effort to get them.
Devout Pupil, for example, can be really strong, but you have to actually work for it over a few turns to get them free. That's a semblance of balance. Simply having Maestra in your deck to get free Gnolls, however, is not balanced, because there's no effort. It just happens, but it shouldn't.
Actually even with Maestra there is some effort required to get them down to 0 early. (1) add an otherwise bad card to your deck, (2) pass the first turn and sometimes the 2nd turn too (or at best just trade away a card). Running Maestra makes everything worse: early, mid or late game topdecks, passage. Not playing your cards for 1-2 turns also hurts a lot vs other fast decks. here the rush ability of the gnoll is key as it allows the deck to recover from the slow start.
My opinion: Gnoll to 6, remove rush or make it 4 health would all be reasonable nerfs that would have an impact on the deck