There are sooo many cards that pack such an insane amount of value in this game now that I am seriously concerned on where this can even go from here. We got spells that use 20 mana worth of spells on enemies, amulets that Rez 40 mana worth of DR minions etc.
what does this game look like in two years? Are we gonna have 100 mana of value single cards. 2 cost minions that are 10/10s with taunt and lifesteal. That seems crazy, but honestly I feel like we are getting dangerously close to that kinda of game.
There are sooo many cards that pack such an insane amount of value in this game now that I am seriously concerned on where this can even go from here. We got spells that use 20 mana worth of spells on enemies, amulets that Rez 40 mana worth of DR minions etc.
what does this game look like in two years? Are we gonna have 100 mana of value single cards. 2 cost minions that are 10/10s with taunt and lifesteal. That seems crazy, but honestly I feel like we are getting dangerously close to that kinda of game.
The day that 0-1-2 mana cost cards contain the power level of 8-9-10+ mana cost cards is the end of Hearthstone (as they wouldn't know how to further powercreep the game...)
Also the fact that the Team 5 Devs 4-5-6 years ago has been mostly replaced by new devs coming in the past 1-2 years... and hence, the change in design philosophy and Hearthstone foundations..
HS has not really developed much during its long run (mechanics wise). Just a few dumb new keywords. Most creative things are hero cards. Unless this changes, then yes I agree with you OP, we will have a game that powercreeps itself until it dies.
This makes me think of Runescape back in the day. They powercreept the game so hard that they reached a point that nobody played it anymore. Then they started the Old School server and if they make any changes they need an approval rate of 75 procent of the community before they put it through. The game works way way better now. I think an approval rate system won't be bad for HS.
I will die on the hill that this is the poster child of Blizz having no idea how to assign cost values to cards anymore.
Battleground Battlemaster is right up there as well, in my mind. Not even a Battlecry, but an AURA? It's a Neutral Common card, no less, for what I honestly think is a Legendary effect. When Blizzard talks about creative space limitations when they make cards, and then they pop something like this out, it's just silly.
what does this game look like in two years? Are we gonna have 100 mana of value single cards.
We have a card like this since 2016.
Games in HS doesnt get decided by who has more value in his deck, they are decided by tempo or who gets to assemble his combo faster. In theory you can cheat 11 mana with Rune of the Archmage but in reality you have a card thats dead in the first 8 turns and when you need a board clear from it and you dont get it you lose the game.
The power creep is real but getting more value from high cost cards doesnt make the game worse in my opinion. The low-cost / high-tempo cards and the ultra-consistent ones (like quests) are the problematic ones.
even though it an end of the deck card, which isn’t always easy to get to, in one turn you may be able to trade it 4-7 times. then play it as a 3 mana, summon 40+ mana worth of minions on the same turn.
Even getting it to three minions by the mid game turn (8-10) , is a 3 mana play 15+ mana worth of minions…. Not to mention the extra 20-40 HP worth of heals and armor that might come with it…
are you saying that isn’t a lot of value for a spell people have 2-4 of during the game????
even though it an end of the deck card, which isn’t always easy to get to, in one turn you may be able to trade it 4-7 times. then play it as a 3 mana, summon 40+ mana worth of minions on the same turn.
Even getting it to three minions by the mid game turn (8-10) , is a 3 mana play 15+ mana worth of minions…. Not to mention the extra 20-40 HP worth of heals and armor that might come with it…
are you saying that isn’t a lot of value for a spell people have 2-4 of during the game????
Cards have costs but its not just mana cost. There is also card cost. Usually 1 card has a 1-card-cost and hero powers have a 0-card cost. There are some exceptions, like Patches who doesnt cost mana, but he also doesnt cost a card, thats why he is so OP. Then there is something thats called opportunity cost. A proactive card with a small mana cost has very little to no opportunity cost, while a high-cost reactive card has a lot bigger opportunity cost.
If you upgrade the amulet twice it costs you 2 extra mana. Not just that, but it also costs you opportunity to spend your mana better than that. Even if its a 3-mana card, you dont play it on curve, you play it a lot later and it has little value unless you spend some mana and a ton of opportunity to make it work.
Im not saying that every card in HS is balanced because a lot of them arent. But when it comes to balanced cards like the amulet, you should weight its opportunity cost too, not just its mana cost.
Power creep is not inevitable. If the developers decide to dial the entire game back a notch, they have an easy opportunity every year.
The power level of Standard can theoretically reset every year when three sets rotate out and the core set can (again, theoretically) be totally replaced. Even the three sets that remain in rotation will not necessarily be as powerful as they were before rotation because they will not have the support of the cards that are leaving. This could easily render a lot of them unusable. Also, there's the possibility of massive nerfs or early relegation to Wild, as with Genn and Baku.
In Wild, the power level is never going to decrease by much, but the increase will slow a bit whenever a more moderate set is put into standard.
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"Why, you never expected justice from a company, did you? They have neither a soul to lose nor a body to kick." -- Lady Saba Holland
even though it an end of the deck card, which isn’t always easy to get to, in one turn you may be able to trade it 4-7 times. then play it as a 3 mana, summon 40+ mana worth of minions on the same turn.
Even getting it to three minions by the mid game turn (8-10) , is a 3 mana play 15+ mana worth of minions…. Not to mention the extra 20-40 HP worth of heals and armor that might come with it…
are you saying that isn’t a lot of value for a spell people have 2-4 of during the game????
No because you're dead long before you can even do any of that shit. The value is such a fucking non-issue that it isn't even funny, the thing that's actually causing problems in the actual game is the absurd amount of card draw.
even though it an end of the deck card, which isn’t always easy to get to, in one turn you may be able to trade it 4-7 times. then play it as a 3 mana, summon 40+ mana worth of minions on the same turn.
Even getting it to three minions by the mid game turn (8-10) , is a 3 mana play 15+ mana worth of minions…. Not to mention the extra 20-40 HP worth of heals and armor that might come with it…
are you saying that isn’t a lot of value for a spell people have 2-4 of during the game????
No because you're dead long before you can even do any of that shit. The value is such a fucking non-issue that it isn't even funny, the thing that's actually causing problems in the actual game is the absurd amount of card draw.
I’m may only be plat, but I get far enough in the game (turn 12-15) around 50% of the games I play. So to see the amulet traded 3-4 times is common.
And even with that said, that doesn’t mean that the amulet and plenty of others don’t have much more value then cards from 2 years ago… which is what the thread is about.
Yes there are a lot of cards that are unfair and have too much value. But I think MOST of the really bad ones are rotating. Especially the copious amounts of unconditional card draw are rotating.
The power creep is kind of overblown. UiS provided a lot of ways to deal damage from hand, which compounded with a lot of the less powerful face damage options from Barrens. Which created kind of a glut of card draw and huge buff cards (like Survival of the Fittest) from Year of the Phoenix with just reliable hand face damage from Year of the Griffon. But honestly without those card draw options from Phoenix, being able to reliably do 2 damage for 2 or 4 damage for 4 is going to be a lot less impactful.
But in terms of literal power creep, where a new card is just flat out better than an old one... eh... not so much. And in most cases, if that is true, it's mostly just that Year of the Raven and Year of the Dragon were so weak.
Most of the really aggressive one drops are rotating. Which is going to weaken Paladin and Hunter. No more devolving missiles. No more lifesteal DH at all. Hopefully they'll change up the secret pools for Mage and Hunter. No more Swindle. No more Renew. No more Brain Freeze. No more Lightning Bloom. No more Barov.
I will die on the hill that this is the poster child of Blizz having no idea how to assign cost values to cards anymore.
Broomstick was pretty overtuned, but I think it was done with a purpose. To make board based/minion decks more powerful. I'm not sorry to see it go, I think there're better ways to do that broomstick-style effect that'll hopefully pop up next year, but I think that was the reason it was so overtuned.
There are sooo many cards that pack such an insane amount of value in this game now that I am seriously concerned on where this can even go from here. We got spells that use 20 mana worth of spells on enemies, amulets that Rez 40 mana worth of DR minions etc.
what does this game look like in two years? Are we gonna have 100 mana of value single cards. 2 cost minions that are 10/10s with taunt and lifesteal. That seems crazy, but honestly I feel like we are getting dangerously close to that kinda of game.
Animated Broomstick
I will die on the hill that this is the poster child of Blizz having no idea how to assign cost values to cards anymore.
Pretty much, which is why this game is dead
Rising powercreep in the game every year....
The day that 0-1-2 mana cost cards contain the power level of 8-9-10+ mana cost cards is the end of Hearthstone (as they wouldn't know how to further powercreep the game...)
Also the fact that the Team 5 Devs 4-5-6 years ago has been mostly replaced by new devs coming in the past 1-2 years... and hence, the change in design philosophy and Hearthstone foundations..
HS has not really developed much during its long run (mechanics wise). Just a few dumb new keywords. Most creative things are hero cards. Unless this changes, then yes I agree with you OP, we will have a game that powercreeps itself until it dies.
Recently we had powercreep mostly in the 1 to 5 mana section, this could be balanced by powercreeping high cost stuff more.
But then those cards would be game ending stuff mostly :P
This makes me think of Runescape back in the day. They powercreept the game so hard that they reached a point that nobody played it anymore. Then they started the Old School server and if they make any changes they need an approval rate of 75 procent of the community before they put it through. The game works way way better now. I think an approval rate system won't be bad for HS.
No, it is not, and will never be dead, because it is too much fun and still the best Game of Bli$$ard today.
I love playing it and I love getting new, powerful cards and I love to lose against super wild decks. So, no, it is not dead.
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You said Amulet was OP... lol
Battleground Battlemaster is right up there as well, in my mind. Not even a Battlecry, but an AURA? It's a Neutral Common card, no less, for what I honestly think is a Legendary effect. When Blizzard talks about creative space limitations when they make cards, and then they pop something like this out, it's just silly.
We have a card like this since 2016.
Games in HS doesnt get decided by who has more value in his deck, they are decided by tempo or who gets to assemble his combo faster. In theory you can cheat 11 mana with Rune of the Archmage but in reality you have a card thats dead in the first 8 turns and when you need a board clear from it and you dont get it you lose the game.
The power creep is real but getting more value from high cost cards doesnt make the game worse in my opinion. The low-cost / high-tempo cards and the ultra-consistent ones (like quests) are the problematic ones.
even though it an end of the deck card, which isn’t always easy to get to, in one turn you may be able to trade it 4-7 times. then play it as a 3 mana, summon 40+ mana worth of minions on the same turn.
Even getting it to three minions by the mid game turn (8-10) , is a 3 mana play 15+ mana worth of minions…. Not to mention the extra 20-40 HP worth of heals and armor that might come with it…
are you saying that isn’t a lot of value for a spell people have 2-4 of during the game????
Cards have costs but its not just mana cost. There is also card cost. Usually 1 card has a 1-card-cost and hero powers have a 0-card cost. There are some exceptions, like Patches who doesnt cost mana, but he also doesnt cost a card, thats why he is so OP. Then there is something thats called opportunity cost. A proactive card with a small mana cost has very little to no opportunity cost, while a high-cost reactive card has a lot bigger opportunity cost.
If you upgrade the amulet twice it costs you 2 extra mana. Not just that, but it also costs you opportunity to spend your mana better than that. Even if its a 3-mana card, you dont play it on curve, you play it a lot later and it has little value unless you spend some mana and a ton of opportunity to make it work.
Im not saying that every card in HS is balanced because a lot of them arent. But when it comes to balanced cards like the amulet, you should weight its opportunity cost too, not just its mana cost.
Power creep is not inevitable. If the developers decide to dial the entire game back a notch, they have an easy opportunity every year.
The power level of Standard can theoretically reset every year when three sets rotate out and the core set can (again, theoretically) be totally replaced. Even the three sets that remain in rotation will not necessarily be as powerful as they were before rotation because they will not have the support of the cards that are leaving. This could easily render a lot of them unusable. Also, there's the possibility of massive nerfs or early relegation to Wild, as with Genn and Baku.
In Wild, the power level is never going to decrease by much, but the increase will slow a bit whenever a more moderate set is put into standard.
"Why, you never expected justice from a company, did you? They have neither a soul to lose nor a body to kick." -- Lady Saba Holland
No because you're dead long before you can even do any of that shit. The value is such a fucking non-issue that it isn't even funny, the thing that's actually causing problems in the actual game is the absurd amount of card draw.
I’m may only be plat, but I get far enough in the game (turn 12-15) around 50% of the games I play. So to see the amulet traded 3-4 times is common.
And even with that said, that doesn’t mean that the amulet and plenty of others don’t have much more value then cards from 2 years ago… which is what the thread is about.
Yes there are a lot of cards that are unfair and have too much value. But I think MOST of the really bad ones are rotating. Especially the copious amounts of unconditional card draw are rotating.
The power creep is kind of overblown. UiS provided a lot of ways to deal damage from hand, which compounded with a lot of the less powerful face damage options from Barrens. Which created kind of a glut of card draw and huge buff cards (like Survival of the Fittest) from Year of the Phoenix with just reliable hand face damage from Year of the Griffon. But honestly without those card draw options from Phoenix, being able to reliably do 2 damage for 2 or 4 damage for 4 is going to be a lot less impactful.
But in terms of literal power creep, where a new card is just flat out better than an old one... eh... not so much. And in most cases, if that is true, it's mostly just that Year of the Raven and Year of the Dragon were so weak.
Most of the really aggressive one drops are rotating. Which is going to weaken Paladin and Hunter. No more devolving missiles. No more lifesteal DH at all. Hopefully they'll change up the secret pools for Mage and Hunter. No more Swindle. No more Renew. No more Brain Freeze. No more Lightning Bloom. No more Barov.
Broomstick was pretty overtuned, but I think it was done with a purpose. To make board based/minion decks more powerful. I'm not sorry to see it go, I think there're better ways to do that broomstick-style effect that'll hopefully pop up next year, but I think that was the reason it was so overtuned.