Power creep keeps the game fresh. Otherwise we would still play yeti on 4.
Well this is the other problem, that people legit think incorrect nostalgia-driven thoughts like playing yeti on 4 being a good play even when they're shown with classic hs that it never was the case. The only class that plays yeti is druid and they most certainly don't do so to curve it out on turn 4, I'll tell you that for a fact.
This does not invalidate the argument, replace it with shredder if you want
Mana Cheat is a combo mechanic which allows "Big" decks (Spells or Minions) to put pressure on Control. Control simply runs out of resources (board clears and single target removal) to deal with those threats (as often times multiple big minions are on the board). But most cards that provide a discount or draw cards don't do anything else the turn played (Palm Reading, Backfire, Free Admission, Arcane Intellect). You basically prepare your hand for a big mid-to-late game strategy to exhaust your opponents options - if he plays passive/reactive. Important to note: most Combo minions have even stats (e.g. Giants). They are neither aggressive nor passive, but mostly lack Taunt as they need a disadvantage vs. Aggro.
The counter to that is to play minions. Every.Single.Turn.
Minions are super valuable because, compared to Spells, they can attack multiple times, or trade with enemy minions. The downside is, they need to wait a turn to be valuable. This means they are vulnerable to one-off Spell cards that can react immediately.
So if a minion-heavy deck has to deal with a spell-heavy deck (spells which do not summon minions but immediately deal with your minions) you as an aggro player cannot build up minion synergy (murlocs) nor can you deal enough damage to face to end the game by turn 4/5. After these turns, if you opponent is not below 15 health, it's usually game over and you run out of cards.
So if you are having trouble beating mana-cheat decks you MUST play murloc decks or any other tribe based/non-tribe based aggro deck. Of course you are vulnerable to control then. And there you have rock-paper-scissors. Important to note: most new cards are combo cards as that's were you have the most freedom in design. And by now we have most combo archetypes in every class.
We have Swarm -> Paladin: Silver Hand Recruits, Divine Shield to counter board clears but you can't afford to wait to combo with cards that provide Divine Shields for your Silver Hands vs. Aggro| Hunter: Token Beasts with Rats and Hyenas to exhaust board clears | Druid: Treants with Deathrattles to counter boardclears | Demon Hunter: Illidari Swarm with Death events as triggers to boost Blood Herald and Nethrandamus and copy them with Zai, the Incredible)
Then we have BIG to counter single target removal -> Warlock: Big demons (Imprisoned Scrap Imp/Shadow Council Combo, mostly lack Taunt) | Mage: Big Spells Quest to go directly face | Hunter&Druid: Big Beasts and so on)
And then of course Deathrattle to counter boardclears -> don't need to summarize, we had it in every class.
The point is, most cards are combo cards as they only work with other cards in synergy. Mostly those are minion/spell combos (Nightshade Matron + Hand of Gul'dan, Feast of Souls + any Illidary Swarm cards etc. Those combos only really work if you draw cards in the early game. If you need to play the Nightshade Matron to answer Aggro (as you didn't have the time to draw into Hand of Gul'dan), you cannot draw cards, and if you play Coordinated Strike or Command the Illidari to answer aggro without Feast of Souls, you're screwed in the mid-game when Aggro finishes you off. So that's the mechanic that makes Combo run out of cards vs. Aggro because they can't combo to draw more in order to prepare for the big finale (in the Demon Hunter example Blood Herald and Nethrandamus). Starving Buzzard + Unleash the Hounds is the exact same example. Play Unleash to answer aggro but then you can't draw anymore with Buzzard nor can you Combo them with Scavenging Hyena.
Funnily enough these archetypes always existed, from the day Hearthstone was released, just not for every class. (the Combo variants - Aggro/Combo/Control was there for every class from the start) And we have lots of stuff inbetween, but generally combo decks always want to survive Board Clears and Single Target Removal (good example is also Rattlegore, he is a nightmare to deal with as Control, as he just won't die without morph spells - but he comes late, has no Taunt and is therefore often times ignored by Aggro)
Most players mix early control spells (some boardclears) and put some highly valuable minions into their deck. This strategy can work, but only if you get your spells first and the minions last. It's usually best to fully commit to one archetype though - because then you can beat other decks of the same archetype and the one you are in favor of anyways.
tl;dr: if you go purely aggro (98% minions) and face a pure control deck (80% boardclears, removals and then a few big minions) you will likely lose, but win any Combo Matchup which need time to prepare and lack Taunts to stop you. Mana Cheat is Combo.
Quite long and even well written post sadly about nothing relevant in today's meta.
Well, I'd say it's always relevant as it's the core game loop of Hearthstone and never changes. But I respect your opinion, just wanted to provide some game design background, feel free to do with it whatever you want.
I absolutely agree with OP. Nearly every meta I've personally considered "unfun" was caused by one or both of those problems. Of the two, I think mana cheat is a far bigger concern. Sometimes decks with a lot of draw just end up doing not much else and fizzling out, but mana cheat always creates a ridiculous swing.
I hated Recruit with a passion, and it was part of the reason I took a long break from Hearthstone toward the end of Witchwood. In the current meta, I detest Anacondra and Celestial Alignment (both separately and together), but I've been lucky enough not to run into them very often. If it were a stronger, more popular archetype, I'd be gone by now. But somehow, the fact that it's a tier 3 deck that some players find enough success with to keep using it just makes me hate it even more. I suppose that's how a lot of people feel about Quest Mage, which actually doesn't bother me nearly as much.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Why, you never expected justice from a company, did you? They have neither a soul to lose nor a body to kick." -- Lady Saba Holland
Maybe players like mana cheating, crazy draws etc. And this was always the case, I agree. But power creep is insane. Insane draws before meant Rogue finishing obnoxious quest turn 5 and playing it. Insane draws now mean DH can make 3 Brutes turn 3. Before spells like Dragonfire Potion were quite reasonable, now 6 mana spells (and above) are almost all useless (save Nourish, Celestial Alignment and Skull of Guldan). Hell, there are few even 5 mana spells used, especially if you count out ones that can be played for cheaper cost or make you regain mana.
Yes, there is valid reason for Blizzard to change this.
New cards keep the game fresh - they don't have to powercreep. This is particularly true now we have a core set and rotation as the types of cards aviable is now much more limited.
The cynical me thinks that they do it [powecreep] on purpose so people wlill buy them, then they can nerf them down or release more OP cards at the next expansion.
As to the other respondant who said that handbuff isn't a mana cheat - I would agree if the mana invested matched the buffs gained, but it generally doesnt. To be clear though, I think this mechanic is less of an issue than the others and only really becomes problematic when there's too much draw or too cheap to buff *cough* Prismatic Jewel Kit *cough.
I imagine that OP is the type who thinks it's inherently bad that a deck like, say, Quest Mage is in the format. I absolutely do not think so. I actually quite like playing decks that draw lots of cards and cheat mana. I'm pretty confident that I'll have an opportunity to butt heads with either the OP or their ideological clones in the future.
But today is not that day. For me, this meta is like drowning on Mountain Dew: it's too much of a thing I like. Or, liked; I'm so far beyond full, I don't want any more.
One thing that really drove this home for me is achievement hunting. I decided this season I'd try to get as many gameplay achievements as I could, and the resulting experience has been unpredictably samey. Mage Weapon achievement? Literally counts how much you reduce Cost. Warlock Weapon achievement? Literally counts how much you reduce Cost. Demon Hunter Quest achievement? I'll give you one guess. Next up is the Garrote achievement, which will involve cheating Cost and drawing pretty much my whole deck with a FOURTH class.
I really like having at least one solid, competitive deck that can do these types of combo things. But this meta feels like some kind of dystopia where EVERYONE is forced to like the things I like, dress the way I dress, look the way I look. I know some of these fellow travelers are deeply unhappy, because their jam is not my jam. And I don't really feel like I'm winning against different archetypes, either. Every match feels like some variation of a mirror match. Can I go off before opponent goes off?
So, yes, even my unabashedly combo lovin' self is not really having fun. It feels like something from that Wishmaster horror series, to be frank.
this game in many variations will always be draw draw combo win fast or barf out your entire hand aggro and win faster. anything else caught in the middle eg control decks and most mid range tempo decks will always be looking outside in to the other two. it's just the way it's always been really.
Can we leave the crazy stuff for wild? DH dropping 3 brutes on turn 4 in standard, or handlock dropping 2 8-8s and an 8-6 on turn 5, that's just stupid. It doesn't have to be curvestone but this is ridiculous.
I honestly think the game is just broken - seriously broken.
Unless you're playing one of the degenerate decks stomping on the meta it feels as if the opponent is cheating (even if you are playing one, it become a coinflip to see who draws best or who chose the right deck for the match-up, both of which test skill to the highest level!).
In a typical game you play your fairly costed 3 mana minion and end your turn. They draw a million cards, deal damage, kill the minion, progress the quest etc. The cost/benefit of the quests that are being played is just too low/high respectively. In my opnion these quests need a serious re-work to make them take longer to complete (or to reduce the power of the reward at the end). Even the quest reward minions are over-statted for their cost because apparently the overpowered battlecry isn't enough - it's just stupid.
It's just not fun to play against and I genuinely think that they've ruined the game (for me at least).
p.s. to everyone who always seems to repspond with "I hate fatigue" or some shit about bumping yeti's into each other, all of the problematic mechanics can be fun in moderation and lots of the current cards probably wouldn't seem broken without other cards (many weren't played at all in previous metas). Combine them together and the game breaks, but seemingly that's the direction the game is taking.
I get that some people enjoy it (and I can imagine it feels great to play these decks when you pop-off and win) but that doesn't make it OK. Plenty people enjoy playing games using cheats - is that OK too?
This game (any game) is built around a set of rules that all participants must play by. The current decks break these rules. I realise that Blizzard makes the rules, so by that logic, all this is fine and no-one is technically cheating. However, Blizzard has demonstrated in the past that they sometimes (often?) release new stuff which is way more powerfull than the current stuff, presumably in an attempt to motivate people to buy said stuff.
I stand by the fact that this game needs all four achetypes to be viable (aggro, combo, control, midrange) for the game to work, otherwise you end up with hyper decks which neglect one archetype and it become a coinflip of who you matched against. The current decks have pushed out control entirely. I wouldnt even class them as combo decks (except the DH one) as they don't need a particular set of cards. They just play out the quest and win a few turns later.
As a priest player, I cannot do anything besides go aggro. Even with this deck i often lose games because of the infinite responses of previously mentioned classes.
There are so many problems and I've hung up the "standard hat" and don't expect to put it back on until next year.
Problems beyond Warlock/Mage --- and they aren't even going to fix Warlock/Mage --- I promise.
But let's say they do --- several other serious issues are out there. Aggro Druid for one is quite stupid. And think other severe cancers are going unnoticed, possibly demon hunter and definitely Shaman.
Time to lose the illusion that they actually want to fix the meta. Or that they are going to fix the meta.
They either don't care or don't want to --- or they are incompetent and don't know how to.
I think the incompetence thing might be in play. Never attribute to malice what can be explained by stupidity.
Or it's just the fact that they want very fast games to be able to sell more in china.
It's just corporate bullshit all the way. Kudos to them for actually having the brains to design things in such a way that games end by turn 5-6. Too bad that knowledge is put to use for china instead of actual fun for everyone.
Or it's just the fact that they want very fast games to be able to sell more in china.
It's just corporate bullshit all the way. Kudos to them for actually having the brains to design things in such a way that games end by turn 5-6. Too bad that knowledge is put to use for china instead of actual fun for everyone.
Because Chinese kids have a limit on how much they can play? Why would that matter to Blizzard? Kids are mostly f2p.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Why, you never expected justice from a company, did you? They have neither a soul to lose nor a body to kick." -- Lady Saba Holland
Do kids in China have less time to play online games? Yes. Did blizzard change the core strategies of hearthstone to accommodate them with an expansion that was planned years ago? Speculative at best, occam’s machete says a hard no. I doubt kids in China are even the biggest group of income asking for faster games. My bet is on American guys that played it in college or high school and now have jobs/kids that take up their time. Also if you think it’s a clown meta now, just wait until 10 hero cards come out next expansion.
This does not invalidate the argument, replace it with shredder if you want
Mana Cheat is a combo mechanic which allows "Big" decks (Spells or Minions) to put pressure on Control. Control simply runs out of resources (board clears and single target removal) to deal with those threats (as often times multiple big minions are on the board). But most cards that provide a discount or draw cards don't do anything else the turn played (Palm Reading, Backfire, Free Admission, Arcane Intellect). You basically prepare your hand for a big mid-to-late game strategy to exhaust your opponents options - if he plays passive/reactive. Important to note: most Combo minions have even stats (e.g. Giants). They are neither aggressive nor passive, but mostly lack Taunt as they need a disadvantage vs. Aggro.
The counter to that is to play minions. Every.Single.Turn.
Minions are super valuable because, compared to Spells, they can attack multiple times, or trade with enemy minions. The downside is, they need to wait a turn to be valuable. This means they are vulnerable to one-off Spell cards that can react immediately.
So if a minion-heavy deck has to deal with a spell-heavy deck (spells which do not summon minions but immediately deal with your minions) you as an aggro player cannot build up minion synergy (murlocs) nor can you deal enough damage to face to end the game by turn 4/5. After these turns, if you opponent is not below 15 health, it's usually game over and you run out of cards.
So if you are having trouble beating mana-cheat decks you MUST play murloc decks or any other tribe based/non-tribe based aggro deck. Of course you are vulnerable to control then. And there you have rock-paper-scissors. Important to note: most new cards are combo cards as that's were you have the most freedom in design. And by now we have most combo archetypes in every class.
We have Swarm -> Paladin: Silver Hand Recruits, Divine Shield to counter board clears but you can't afford to wait to combo with cards that provide Divine Shields for your Silver Hands vs. Aggro| Hunter: Token Beasts with Rats and Hyenas to exhaust board clears | Druid: Treants with Deathrattles to counter boardclears | Demon Hunter: Illidari Swarm with Death events as triggers to boost Blood Herald and Nethrandamus and copy them with Zai, the Incredible)
Then we have BIG to counter single target removal -> Warlock: Big demons (Imprisoned Scrap Imp/Shadow Council Combo, mostly lack Taunt) | Mage: Big Spells Quest to go directly face | Hunter&Druid: Big Beasts and so on)
And then of course Deathrattle to counter boardclears -> don't need to summarize, we had it in every class.
The point is, most cards are combo cards as they only work with other cards in synergy. Mostly those are minion/spell combos (Nightshade Matron + Hand of Gul'dan, Feast of Souls + any Illidary Swarm cards etc. Those combos only really work if you draw cards in the early game. If you need to play the Nightshade Matron to answer Aggro (as you didn't have the time to draw into Hand of Gul'dan), you cannot draw cards, and if you play Coordinated Strike or Command the Illidari to answer aggro without Feast of Souls, you're screwed in the mid-game when Aggro finishes you off. So that's the mechanic that makes Combo run out of cards vs. Aggro because they can't combo to draw more in order to prepare for the big finale (in the Demon Hunter example Blood Herald and Nethrandamus). Starving Buzzard + Unleash the Hounds is the exact same example. Play Unleash to answer aggro but then you can't draw anymore with Buzzard nor can you Combo them with Scavenging Hyena.
Funnily enough these archetypes always existed, from the day Hearthstone was released, just not for every class. (the Combo variants - Aggro/Combo/Control was there for every class from the start) And we have lots of stuff inbetween, but generally combo decks always want to survive Board Clears and Single Target Removal (good example is also Rattlegore, he is a nightmare to deal with as Control, as he just won't die without morph spells - but he comes late, has no Taunt and is therefore often times ignored by Aggro)
Most players mix early control spells (some boardclears) and put some highly valuable minions into their deck. This strategy can work, but only if you get your spells first and the minions last. It's usually best to fully commit to one archetype though - because then you can beat other decks of the same archetype and the one you are in favor of anyways.
tl;dr: if you go purely aggro (98% minions) and face a pure control deck (80% boardclears, removals and then a few big minions) you will likely lose, but win any Combo Matchup which need time to prepare and lack Taunts to stop you. Mana Cheat is Combo.
Quite long and even well written post sadly about nothing relevant in today's meta.
Well, I'd say it's always relevant as it's the core game loop of Hearthstone and never changes. But I respect your opinion, just wanted to provide some game design background, feel free to do with it whatever you want.
I absolutely agree with OP. Nearly every meta I've personally considered "unfun" was caused by one or both of those problems. Of the two, I think mana cheat is a far bigger concern. Sometimes decks with a lot of draw just end up doing not much else and fizzling out, but mana cheat always creates a ridiculous swing.
I hated Recruit with a passion, and it was part of the reason I took a long break from Hearthstone toward the end of Witchwood. In the current meta, I detest Anacondra and Celestial Alignment (both separately and together), but I've been lucky enough not to run into them very often. If it were a stronger, more popular archetype, I'd be gone by now. But somehow, the fact that it's a tier 3 deck that some players find enough success with to keep using it just makes me hate it even more. I suppose that's how a lot of people feel about Quest Mage, which actually doesn't bother me nearly as much.
"Why, you never expected justice from a company, did you? They have neither a soul to lose nor a body to kick." -- Lady Saba Holland
New cards keep the game fresh - they don't have to powercreep. This is particularly true now we have a core set and rotation as the types of cards aviable is now much more limited.
The cynical me thinks that they do it [powecreep] on purpose so people wlill buy them, then they can nerf them down or release more OP cards at the next expansion.
As to the other respondant who said that handbuff isn't a mana cheat - I would agree if the mana invested matched the buffs gained, but it generally doesnt. To be clear though, I think this mechanic is less of an issue than the others and only really becomes problematic when there's too much draw or too cheap to buff *cough* Prismatic Jewel Kit *cough.
I imagine that OP is the type who thinks it's inherently bad that a deck like, say, Quest Mage is in the format. I absolutely do not think so. I actually quite like playing decks that draw lots of cards and cheat mana. I'm pretty confident that I'll have an opportunity to butt heads with either the OP or their ideological clones in the future.
But today is not that day. For me, this meta is like drowning on Mountain Dew: it's too much of a thing I like. Or, liked; I'm so far beyond full, I don't want any more.
One thing that really drove this home for me is achievement hunting. I decided this season I'd try to get as many gameplay achievements as I could, and the resulting experience has been unpredictably samey. Mage Weapon achievement? Literally counts how much you reduce Cost. Warlock Weapon achievement? Literally counts how much you reduce Cost. Demon Hunter Quest achievement? I'll give you one guess. Next up is the Garrote achievement, which will involve cheating Cost and drawing pretty much my whole deck with a FOURTH class.
I really like having at least one solid, competitive deck that can do these types of combo things. But this meta feels like some kind of dystopia where EVERYONE is forced to like the things I like, dress the way I dress, look the way I look. I know some of these fellow travelers are deeply unhappy, because their jam is not my jam. And I don't really feel like I'm winning against different archetypes, either. Every match feels like some variation of a mirror match. Can I go off before opponent goes off?
So, yes, even my unabashedly combo lovin' self is not really having fun. It feels like something from that Wishmaster horror series, to be frank.
this game in many variations will always be draw draw combo win fast or barf out your entire hand aggro and win faster. anything else caught in the middle eg control decks and most mid range tempo decks will always be looking outside in to the other two. it's just the way it's always been really.
Can we leave the crazy stuff for wild? DH dropping 3 brutes on turn 4 in standard, or handlock dropping 2 8-8s and an 8-6 on turn 5, that's just stupid. It doesn't have to be curvestone but this is ridiculous.
I honestly think the game is just broken - seriously broken.
Unless you're playing one of the degenerate decks stomping on the meta it feels as if the opponent is cheating (even if you are playing one, it become a coinflip to see who draws best or who chose the right deck for the match-up, both of which test skill to the highest level!).
In a typical game you play your fairly costed 3 mana minion and end your turn. They draw a million cards, deal damage, kill the minion, progress the quest etc. The cost/benefit of the quests that are being played is just too low/high respectively. In my opnion these quests need a serious re-work to make them take longer to complete (or to reduce the power of the reward at the end). Even the quest reward minions are over-statted for their cost because apparently the overpowered battlecry isn't enough - it's just stupid.
It's just not fun to play against and I genuinely think that they've ruined the game (for me at least).
p.s. to everyone who always seems to repspond with "I hate fatigue" or some shit about bumping yeti's into each other, all of the problematic mechanics can be fun in moderation and lots of the current cards probably wouldn't seem broken without other cards (many weren't played at all in previous metas). Combine them together and the game breaks, but seemingly that's the direction the game is taking.
I like the meta.
I get that some people enjoy it (and I can imagine it feels great to play these decks when you pop-off and win) but that doesn't make it OK. Plenty people enjoy playing games using cheats - is that OK too?
This game (any game) is built around a set of rules that all participants must play by. The current decks break these rules. I realise that Blizzard makes the rules, so by that logic, all this is fine and no-one is technically cheating. However, Blizzard has demonstrated in the past that they sometimes (often?) release new stuff which is way more powerfull than the current stuff, presumably in an attempt to motivate people to buy said stuff.
I stand by the fact that this game needs all four achetypes to be viable (aggro, combo, control, midrange) for the game to work, otherwise you end up with hyper decks which neglect one archetype and it become a coinflip of who you matched against. The current decks have pushed out control entirely. I wouldnt even class them as combo decks (except the DH one) as they don't need a particular set of cards. They just play out the quest and win a few turns later.
The think is we cannot even fill the board with minions. Cards like Brawl Fire Sale Devolving Missiles/ Perpetual Flame are example of bull-s.
As a priest player, I cannot do anything besides go aggro. Even with this deck i often lose games because of the infinite responses of previously mentioned classes.
There are so many problems and I've hung up the "standard hat" and don't expect to put it back on until next year.
Problems beyond Warlock/Mage --- and they aren't even going to fix Warlock/Mage --- I promise.
But let's say they do --- several other serious issues are out there. Aggro Druid for one is quite stupid. And think other severe cancers are going unnoticed, possibly demon hunter and definitely Shaman.
Time to lose the illusion that they actually want to fix the meta. Or that they are going to fix the meta.
They either don't care or don't want to --- or they are incompetent and don't know how to.
I think the incompetence thing might be in play. Never attribute to malice what can be explained by stupidity.
Or it's just the fact that they want very fast games to be able to sell more in china.
It's just corporate bullshit all the way. Kudos to them for actually having the brains to design things in such a way that games end by turn 5-6. Too bad that knowledge is put to use for china instead of actual fun for everyone.
Because Chinese kids have a limit on how much they can play? Why would that matter to Blizzard? Kids are mostly f2p.
"Why, you never expected justice from a company, did you? They have neither a soul to lose nor a body to kick." -- Lady Saba Holland
It's very common and easy for kids to engage in microtransactions due parental unawareness
It's pure speculation whether Chinese kids are doing enough of that to make Blizzard design their whole game around it.
"Why, you never expected justice from a company, did you? They have neither a soul to lose nor a body to kick." -- Lady Saba Holland
Do kids in China have less time to play online games? Yes. Did blizzard change the core strategies of hearthstone to accommodate them with an expansion that was planned years ago? Speculative at best, occam’s machete says a hard no. I doubt kids in China are even the biggest group of income asking for faster games. My bet is on American guys that played it in college or high school and now have jobs/kids that take up their time. Also if you think it’s a clown meta now, just wait until 10 hero cards come out next expansion.
You forgot to mention that the Hero cards all cost 5 mana and utterly change the rules of the game when played.
"Why, you never expected justice from a company, did you? They have neither a soul to lose nor a body to kick." -- Lady Saba Holland