I’ve been contemplating a possible change to the way Questlines are completed which I saw someone suggest on here a while back. The idea was to prevent questlines from accumulating progress toward multiple steps in one turn, making it so one would have to wait until the next turn to complete another step as opposed to overlapping. To me, it seems like it would be very successful in slowing down the “turbo” quests like Mage and Warlock, but I do not have much experience with the other classes in regard to how detrimental the change would be. Do you guys think it would succeed in slowing the meta down or would it be too damaging to Paladins, Rogues etc.?
Never gonna get it, never gonna get it Never gonna get it, never gonna get it Never gonna get it, never gonna get it Never gonna get it, never get it.
If they change anything about Questlines, they will alter individual cards. They will not make a blanket change to the mechanism.
I could imagine, for example, increasing the damage requirement on the first two steps of The Demon Seed. Warlock has far too much healing as a class, so this would make the quest take longer without killing its viability.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Why, you never expected justice from a company, did you? They have neither a soul to lose nor a body to kick." -- Lady Saba Holland
You know, the way you type reminds me a lot of my favorite user on here, warcraftofworld. Their comments always made me laugh and if that is you I’m glad you’re still around blud
Also the partial rewards you get are powercrept from older quests, how many of them would be played if it would only give you final reward? Less then now, Hunter one wouldn't be played at all.
Also it is Questline, quest - something you spend more time on, not that you finish in 4 turns. The fundamentals of completing questlines are wrong. You can complete the steps for way to low mana cost (most of them), that is a problem. In warlock 1 mana deal 4 damage take 4. Before questline these self hurt cards were designed to have some drawback, in the deck they more or less lose the drawback and become advantage. for 1 mana you complete 1/5 of the quest. Old quests were slower. The only quest that really feels like quest is the priest one honestly.
But this change would be nice, but I still don't like the inevitability of quests (Hunter, Warlock). Still we have problem with 0 mana cards so if these decks die we are back at Secret, OTK mage meta. Wild and HS in general has more problems than just these.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Minion to minion the basic of all combats, only a fool trusts his win to an OTK"
Never gonna get it, never gonna get it Never gonna get it, never gonna get it Never gonna get it, never gonna get it Never gonna get it, never get it.
If they change anything about Questlines, they will alter individual cards. They will not make a blanket change to the mechanism.
I could imagine, for example, increasing the damage requirement on the first two steps of The Demon Seed. Warlock has far too much healing as a class, so this would make the quest take longer without killing its viability.
I get what you’re saying especially when it comes to Blizzard having to allow full dust refunds for 10 legendary cards, which seems like a disaster. However, i think that concept is more costly on paper than it is in practice as I don’t see why people would disenchant cards that could still be completely viable just because they are technically “weaker”. I could see a ton of people disenchanting the priest quest though as it would still be almost unplayable even though it would be functionally unchanged.
Actually I think it's more about how it's incorrect to paint all the questlines with the same broad brush, and how it would seem like an admission that the fundamental design of questlines is flawed. I personally don't think it's a problem that you can complete multiple steps in a turn. If it's too easy to complete some of them, the individual steps need to be adjusted. "One size fits all" is not a great approach when making balance changes.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Why, you never expected justice from a company, did you? They have neither a soul to lose nor a body to kick." -- Lady Saba Holland
The logic behind this change came from watching the Grandmasters. The only reason why warlock and mage quests were so strong there was because they could easily be done and provided a very early win condition with little to no downside.
If you change all quests this way, Stealer of Souls can no longer do it by itself, for instance. This would also be more impactful for warlock questline than for the other ones, because I also wrote that you just couldn't progress the new questline part on the same turn AT ALL. This means that, once you finish the first part, dealing damage to yourself will not progress the second part on the same turn, which will make it harder for you to make the correct plays. Do you want to damage yourself to get rid of an opposing minion after one part of your questline is done, or do you want to keep it alive, risking that it connects to your face but keeping your 2-mana self-damage removal spell in hand for questline progression next turn? Even tapping becomes a more difficult decision. This will delay but not outright kill the questline and it also means that, due to the rather high and increasing amount of damage each step of the warlock questline requires, it becomes a lot less likely that you finish this before turn 7. The same is true with Mage with all it's cost reduction and card draw. You want to progress your questline, but you need to remove things or spend your mana efficiently? Well, make a decision.
Regarding concerns about the other quests, this change wouldn't affect the other questlines that much. Dh works similarly already, druid (lol), progression for priest wouldn't change at all, you would sometimes make a different play in rogue, but the class is flexible enough to make up for it, warrior doesn't really matter/change much, and shaman gets a little weaker due to Bloom losing flexibility and tempo, but that's basically it. Paladin would not change much, you might lose 1 turn from time to time, but that doesn't matter in this meta anyway. Hunter, well, that card shouldn't be that explosive anyway. But in general, it would be a good idea to tone down the power level of all questlines.
Just to add to what someone here wrote about the priest questline: The priest questline would actually get buffed by this change in the current meta because the meta slows down overall. Still probably a little too slow, but certainly ot as hopeless as today. It's not like priest can realistically finish its questline step and progress the next step anyway in the first place.
In the end, if the devs actually do what Iksar said in his AMA (they consider heavily nerfing this year's expansions and adding a much weaker core set to reduce overall power level in standard when the new year starts), there need to be drastic nerfs to these questlines or nothing will change. This one is just a first step that would probably not even be enough in such a future meta environment.
This would make people have to hold onto the 5 mama 7/7 lol mutantus would be run in every deck until quests stop being played
I’m not sure what you mean as really what one would have to do is wait until a turn where there is enough mana availanle to complete the quest and play the reward as well, meaning that they may actually have to play an extra turn or two before going all in. That would essentially be the goal as I think all the quests would be healthier if they were completed by about turn 8 or 9 (bar some exceptions) and then have their explosive turns take place at around 10 mana.
This would make people have to hold onto the 5 mama 7/7 lol mutantus would be run in every deck until quests stop being played
I don't know what's so bad about giving the worst archtype in the game a win condition against their weakest matchups, but ok. There is still a lot of counterplay to Mutanus, but I agree that this could be detrimental to a deck like spell quest mage.
However, you can often just finish the last part of the questline and play the reward on the same turn. That's also why I liked this idea more than most of the other solutions I have read about. You only can't progress two different parts of the questline, which will make these decks slower by approximately 2-4 turns. That's a difference.
I’ve been contemplating a possible change to the way Questlines are completed which I saw someone suggest on here a while back. The idea was to prevent questlines from accumulating progress toward multiple steps in one turn, making it so one would have to wait until the next turn to complete another step as opposed to overlapping. To me, it seems like it would be very successful in slowing down the “turbo” quests like Mage and Warlock, but I do not have much experience with the other classes in regard to how detrimental the change would be. Do you guys think it would succeed in slowing the meta down or would it be too damaging to Paladins, Rogues etc.?
I think it would. I suggested the other day to slow all teh quests down, until turn 10. that way, control priest, big warrior, etc...can be played and have a chance at winning. The way the Quests are now, is most are complete by turn 6 every game. And the rewards are so damn good the game end 1 or 2 turns later on average. So slowing down the quest till turn 10 gives a more balanced feel to the game.
I think the easiest thing to do about quests is to print an anti-quest tech card.
My idea is a minion with battlecry that resets a quest to the beginning.
I don't think that single card with battlecry: "Screw your opponent's entire game plan" is a good idea... I mean, some cards work that way, but they are usually random, like Mutanus, not guaranteed.
I'd say they should start with new general rule: Any excess health (from healing effects) is transformed into armor. Neutral source of heavy and cheap armor (like 20-30) would also be nice.
On top of that, I believe we need more protective cards in general, like e.g: Battlecry: For next 3 turns opponent can deal only 3 damage to your hero per turn.". Or something similar to Bulwark of Azzinoth but for everyone. That would help control decks against both - combo and aggro,
Maybe too punishing, but I'm not sure I can think of a better way to introduce some counterplay to quests. This at least leaves the quest in play so that your opponent can continue perusing it.
Maybe too punishing, but I'm not sure I can think of a better way to introduce some counterplay to quests. This at least leaves the quest in play so that your opponent can continue perusing it.
Resetting the quest would be very extreme, and if it wasn’t a legendary it would be devastating to get hit with 2 even if your deck could somehow recover for the first one. But in that same vein, maybe something like a Cult Neophyte for quests would be decent. Something like a 2 mana “Your opponent cannot progress toward their Questline next turn” with tradeable so it’s not a dead draw against other decks.
I’ve been contemplating a possible change to the way Questlines are completed which I saw someone suggest on here a while back. The idea was to prevent questlines from accumulating progress toward multiple steps in one turn, making it so one would have to wait until the next turn to complete another step as opposed to overlapping. To me, it seems like it would be very successful in slowing down the “turbo” quests like Mage and Warlock, but I do not have much experience with the other classes in regard to how detrimental the change would be. Do you guys think it would succeed in slowing the meta down or would it be too damaging to Paladins, Rogues etc.?
itz a sik idea blud hope they implement it
that could work...
And here i was thinking that that's how it worked from the start! Lol.
Good thing i stopped playing this shit some time ago...
In the immortal words of En Vogue,
Never gonna get it, never gonna get it
Never gonna get it, never gonna get it
Never gonna get it, never get it.
"Why, you never expected justice from a company, did you? They have neither a soul to lose nor a body to kick." -- Lady Saba Holland
You know, the way you type reminds me a lot of my favorite user on here, warcraftofworld. Their comments always made me laugh and if that is you I’m glad you’re still around blud
Also the partial rewards you get are powercrept from older quests, how many of them would be played if it would only give you final reward? Less then now, Hunter one wouldn't be played at all.
Also it is Questline, quest - something you spend more time on, not that you finish in 4 turns. The fundamentals of completing questlines are wrong. You can complete the steps for way to low mana cost (most of them), that is a problem. In warlock 1 mana deal 4 damage take 4. Before questline these self hurt cards were designed to have some drawback, in the deck they more or less lose the drawback and become advantage. for 1 mana you complete 1/5 of the quest. Old quests were slower. The only quest that really feels like quest is the priest one honestly.
But this change would be nice, but I still don't like the inevitability of quests (Hunter, Warlock). Still we have problem with 0 mana cards so if these decks die we are back at Secret, OTK mage meta. Wild and HS in general has more problems than just these.
"Minion to minion the basic of all combats, only a fool trusts his win to an OTK"
I get what you’re saying especially when it comes to Blizzard having to allow full dust refunds for 10 legendary cards, which seems like a disaster. However, i think that concept is more costly on paper than it is in practice as I don’t see why people would disenchant cards that could still be completely viable just because they are technically “weaker”. I could see a ton of people disenchanting the priest quest though as it would still be almost unplayable even though it would be functionally unchanged.
Actually I think it's more about how it's incorrect to paint all the questlines with the same broad brush, and how it would seem like an admission that the fundamental design of questlines is flawed. I personally don't think it's a problem that you can complete multiple steps in a turn. If it's too easy to complete some of them, the individual steps need to be adjusted. "One size fits all" is not a great approach when making balance changes.
"Why, you never expected justice from a company, did you? They have neither a soul to lose nor a body to kick." -- Lady Saba Holland
It wouldn't just be successful, it would kill them and make them unplayable.
The logic behind this change came from watching the Grandmasters. The only reason why warlock and mage quests were so strong there was because they could easily be done and provided a very early win condition with little to no downside.
If you change all quests this way, Stealer of Souls can no longer do it by itself, for instance. This would also be more impactful for warlock questline than for the other ones, because I also wrote that you just couldn't progress the new questline part on the same turn AT ALL. This means that, once you finish the first part, dealing damage to yourself will not progress the second part on the same turn, which will make it harder for you to make the correct plays. Do you want to damage yourself to get rid of an opposing minion after one part of your questline is done, or do you want to keep it alive, risking that it connects to your face but keeping your 2-mana self-damage removal spell in hand for questline progression next turn? Even tapping becomes a more difficult decision. This will delay but not outright kill the questline and it also means that, due to the rather high and increasing amount of damage each step of the warlock questline requires, it becomes a lot less likely that you finish this before turn 7. The same is true with Mage with all it's cost reduction and card draw. You want to progress your questline, but you need to remove things or spend your mana efficiently? Well, make a decision.
Regarding concerns about the other quests, this change wouldn't affect the other questlines that much. Dh works similarly already, druid (lol), progression for priest wouldn't change at all, you would sometimes make a different play in rogue, but the class is flexible enough to make up for it, warrior doesn't really matter/change much, and shaman gets a little weaker due to Bloom losing flexibility and tempo, but that's basically it. Paladin would not change much, you might lose 1 turn from time to time, but that doesn't matter in this meta anyway. Hunter, well, that card shouldn't be that explosive anyway. But in general, it would be a good idea to tone down the power level of all questlines.
Just to add to what someone here wrote about the priest questline: The priest questline would actually get buffed by this change in the current meta because the meta slows down overall. Still probably a little too slow, but certainly ot as hopeless as today. It's not like priest can realistically finish its questline step and progress the next step anyway in the first place.
In the end, if the devs actually do what Iksar said in his AMA (they consider heavily nerfing this year's expansions and adding a much weaker core set to reduce overall power level in standard when the new year starts), there need to be drastic nerfs to these questlines or nothing will change. This one is just a first step that would probably not even be enough in such a future meta environment.
This would make people have to hold onto the 5 mama 7/7 lol mutantus would be run in every deck until quests stop being played
I’m not sure what you mean as really what one would have to do is wait until a turn where there is enough mana availanle to complete the quest and play the reward as well, meaning that they may actually have to play an extra turn or two before going all in. That would essentially be the goal as I think all the quests would be healthier if they were completed by about turn 8 or 9 (bar some exceptions) and then have their explosive turns take place at around 10 mana.
I don't know what's so bad about giving the worst archtype in the game a win condition against their weakest matchups, but ok. There is still a lot of counterplay to Mutanus, but I agree that this could be detrimental to a deck like spell quest mage.
However, you can often just finish the last part of the questline and play the reward on the same turn. That's also why I liked this idea more than most of the other solutions I have read about. You only can't progress two different parts of the questline, which will make these decks slower by approximately 2-4 turns. That's a difference.
I think it would. I suggested the other day to slow all teh quests down, until turn 10. that way, control priest, big warrior, etc...can be played and have a chance at winning. The way the Quests are now, is most are complete by turn 6 every game. And the rewards are so damn good the game end 1 or 2 turns later on average. So slowing down the quest till turn 10 gives a more balanced feel to the game.
I think the easiest thing to do about quests is to print an anti-quest tech card.
My idea is a minion with battlecry that resets a quest to the beginning.
Galavant Animation
It's funny that fanboys are still sticking with the nothing is wrong position....
I don't think that single card with battlecry: "Screw your opponent's entire game plan" is a good idea... I mean, some cards work that way, but they are usually random, like Mutanus, not guaranteed.
I'd say they should start with new general rule: Any excess health (from healing effects) is transformed into armor. Neutral source of heavy and cheap armor (like 20-30) would also be nice.
On top of that, I believe we need more protective cards in general, like e.g: Battlecry: For next 3 turns opponent can deal only 3 damage to your hero per turn.". Or something similar to Bulwark of Azzinoth but for everyone. That would help control decks against both - combo and aggro,
Maybe too punishing, but I'm not sure I can think of a better way to introduce some counterplay to quests. This at least leaves the quest in play so that your opponent can continue perusing it.
Galavant Animation
Resetting the quest would be very extreme, and if it wasn’t a legendary it would be devastating to get hit with 2 even if your deck could somehow recover for the first one. But in that same vein, maybe something like a Cult Neophyte for quests would be decent. Something like a 2 mana “Your opponent cannot progress toward their Questline next turn” with tradeable so it’s not a dead draw against other decks.