Hearthpwn

Yes, have much better Solitaires games than HearthStone if this is your thing...

Quote from RendInFriend >>

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This isn’t the time for control. It will return when it has more tools, and when there is a strong deck for it to counter, but right now a control archetype isn’t necessary. Walls are in the game already, and mana destruction sounds terrible.

 The problem is that the existence of these quests makes control impossible. Mage and Warlock quests both auto win after a certain point and there is no way to outlast them, which is the entire point of Control. You can't taunt against them, you can't heal out of range, you just die. 

They're both beatable, if you're using aggro they're easy to farm. But that doesn't change the fact that they shut control decks out completely. It's fine to go an xpac or so without any major control decks, but if the quests aren't touched we'll be going a year and a half without them, which is not ok.

 I know, I play this game too. It’s a combo meta, like I said, it’s not control’s time. Just wait until all the classes get hero cards for the mercenaries next expansion. Control will return when they keep hero cards at the same cost/power level as this expansion. 5 cost DK Jaina and shadowreaper Anduin…

 If they have 5 cost Hero cards that's not control, it's midrange.

There is literally nothing they can give control to counter a deck that ignores what you have on board and damages your face for 30 in one turn, that can't fatigue. That's the biggest two issues; nothing you play can stop them from destroying your face, and nothing you play can run them out of damage. That makes it impossible for any control deck to beat them, unless you can generate 30-40+ health to survive through the burn.

Please, tell me what card they can print to counter a 2 card 7 mana combo that deals 15-20 damage to face and has the chance to generate another 15-20 damage, plus a hero power that deals 6-8 damage, all while healing themselves, destroying your board, and generating board presence? 

Quote from SinAscendant >>

Quote from RendInFriend >>

Quote from SinAscendant >>

Quote from RendInFriend >>

This isn’t the time for control. It will return when it has more tools, and when there is a strong deck for it to counter, but right now a control archetype isn’t necessary. Walls are in the game already, and mana destruction sounds terrible.

 The problem is that the existence of these quests makes control impossible. Mage and Warlock quests both auto win after a certain point and there is no way to outlast them, which is the entire point of Control. You can't taunt against them, you can't heal out of range, you just die. 

They're both beatable, if you're using aggro they're easy to farm. But that doesn't change the fact that they shut control decks out completely. It's fine to go an xpac or so without any major control decks, but if the quests aren't touched we'll be going a year and a half without them, which is not ok.

 I know, I play this game too. It’s a combo meta, like I said, it’s not control’s time. Just wait until all the classes get hero cards for the mercenaries next expansion. Control will return when they keep hero cards at the same cost/power level as this expansion. 5 cost DK Jaina and shadowreaper Anduin…

 If they have 5 cost Hero cards that's not control, it's midrange.

There is literally nothing they can give control to counter a deck that ignores what you have on board and damages your face for 30 in one turn, that can't fatigue. That's the biggest two issues; nothing you play can stop them from destroying your face, and nothing you play can run them out of damage. That makes it impossible for any control deck to beat them, unless you can generate 30-40+ health to survive through the burn.

Please, tell me what card they can print to counter a 2 card 7 mana combo that deals 15-20 damage to face and has the chance to generate another 15-20 damage, plus a hero power that deals 6-8 damage, all while healing themselves, destroying your board, and generating board presence? 

 I seem to remember DK Rexxar being a control card and not midrange, but I digress. You’re convinced you’re right and nothing anyone or anything they do can change it. I can think of one card they could print, and I would be shocked if they did, but a 4 cost “destroy opponent’s active quest” would definitely do it.

Time and again...since its inception card design has always been to serve and to protect the base. Parochial to be precise. Tribal for the commoners. Markets corrupt good morals and sound reasoning. Just to maximize profit. Hayek and Milton Friedman would disagree. The lack of corporate ethics reflects the overall state of the meta culminating in profound lack of interclass balance and persistent meta dominance of the aggression classes. Fun that's what they call it and along side them the target audience. 

Dear base, maybe you should educate yourself to see the worth of taking time to think and strategizing in prolonged matchups. 

Quote from RendInFriend >>

Quote from SinAscendant >>

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Quote from RendInFriend >>

This isn’t the time for control. It will return when it has more tools, and when there is a strong deck for it to counter, but right now a control archetype isn’t necessary. Walls are in the game already, and mana destruction sounds terrible.

 The problem is that the existence of these quests makes control impossible. Mage and Warlock quests both auto win after a certain point and there is no way to outlast them, which is the entire point of Control. You can't taunt against them, you can't heal out of range, you just die. 

They're both beatable, if you're using aggro they're easy to farm. But that doesn't change the fact that they shut control decks out completely. It's fine to go an xpac or so without any major control decks, but if the quests aren't touched we'll be going a year and a half without them, which is not ok.

 I know, I play this game too. It’s a combo meta, like I said, it’s not control’s time. Just wait until all the classes get hero cards for the mercenaries next expansion. Control will return when they keep hero cards at the same cost/power level as this expansion. 5 cost DK Jaina and shadowreaper Anduin…

 If they have 5 cost Hero cards that's not control, it's midrange.

There is literally nothing they can give control to counter a deck that ignores what you have on board and damages your face for 30 in one turn, that can't fatigue. That's the biggest two issues; nothing you play can stop them from destroying your face, and nothing you play can run them out of damage. That makes it impossible for any control deck to beat them, unless you can generate 30-40+ health to survive through the burn.

Please, tell me what card they can print to counter a 2 card 7 mana combo that deals 15-20 damage to face and has the chance to generate another 15-20 damage, plus a hero power that deals 6-8 damage, all while healing themselves, destroying your board, and generating board presence? 

 I seem to remember DK Rexxar being a control card and not midrange, but I digress. You’re convinced you’re right and nothing anyone or anything they do can change it. I can think of one card they could print, and I would be shocked if they did, but a 4 cost “destroy opponent’s active quest” would definitely do it.

 He was 6 mana, not 5, so clearly you don't remember right. And you remember the meta wrong too. He was splashed into Deathrattle which was semi Control because he was a good card, but the vast majority of Hunter decks that year were midrange, and didn't run anything above 6 cost. Even the Deathrattle decks only ran 4 or 5 7+ cards. Here's proof:

https://www.hearthstonetopdecks.com/deck-category/standard/raven/?st=&class_id=612&style_id=&t_id=&f_id=&pt_id=1&sort=new

Try to be a little less snarky unless you bother to actually check whether you're right or not next time.

The game is designed for and not focused on slower decks. Agro decks are harder to pilot period and control decks loaded with removal and draw are too easy long for the style of mobile / pc hybrid game for hearthstone.

You need a win condition in your deck, I remember Pizza saying this on stream. People have this vision of hitting 10 mana and playing big cards but you need a win condition you can't expect to just not lose they need a plan to win.

Quote from Wyrdward >>

The game is designed for and not focused on slower decks. Agro decks are harder to pilot period and control decks loaded with removal and draw are too easy long for the style of mobile / pc hybrid game for hearthstone.

You need a win condition in your deck, I remember Pizza saying this on stream. People have this vision of hitting 10 mana and playing big cards but you need a win condition you can't expect to just not lose they need a plan to win.

 >aggro decks are harder to pilot

LMFAO what? No, no they aren't. There's nothing difficult about "play minion hit face". Aggro decks are what I play when I want to turn my brain off and burn through my bonus stars quick so I can play something actually fun. 

Quote from Wyrdward >>

Agro decks are harder to pilot period and control decks loaded with removal and draw are too easy long for the style of mobile / pc hybrid game for hearthstone.

Have you ever seen Hearthstone BOT for control decks? Because in the past I've seen couple for aggro decks.

Quote from SinAscendant >>

Quote from Wyrdward >>

The game is designed for and not focused on slower decks. Agro decks are harder to pilot period and control decks loaded with removal and draw are too easy long for the style of mobile / pc hybrid game for hearthstone.

You need a win condition in your deck, I remember Pizza saying this on stream. People have this vision of hitting 10 mana and playing big cards but you need a win condition you can't expect to just not lose they need a plan to win.

 >aggro decks are harder to pilot

LMFAO what? No, no they aren't. There's nothing difficult about "play minion hit face". Aggro decks are what I play when I want to turn my brain off and burn through my bonus stars quick so I can play something actually fun. 

 Then you will play them bad. Might be enough to climb but not to play them good. Aggro mirrors are the most unforgiving matches in hs (if both players draw decent)

Quote from Anarchy1 >>

Quote from SinAscendant >>

Quote from Wyrdward >>

The game is designed for and not focused on slower decks. Agro decks are harder to pilot period and control decks loaded with removal and draw are too easy long for the style of mobile / pc hybrid game for hearthstone.

You need a win condition in your deck, I remember Pizza saying this on stream. People have this vision of hitting 10 mana and playing big cards but you need a win condition you can't expect to just not lose they need a plan to win.

 >aggro decks are harder to pilot

LMFAO what? No, no they aren't. There's nothing difficult about "play minion hit face". Aggro decks are what I play when I want to turn my brain off and burn through my bonus stars quick so I can play something actually fun. 

 Then you will play them bad. Might be enough to climb but not to play them good. Aggro mirrors are the most unforgiving matches in hs (if both players draw decent)

 Pretty unforgiving for the person going second.

maybe, this was all planned because blizz never seemed to be a fan of control decks from the very start

and thats not gonna change, probably ever

yes, people hate long games where they might just "waste" 30mins from a lost game, but i rather have this than having no interactivity and 5min games where you couldn't even ACTUALLY play the game. sure this current state is better...not

I just miss people playing minions on board

I am playing standard yet, but since I have most of the cards it would be nice to play with the 40% of them that are shut out.

Quest Handlock is probably one of the best decks in the game right now and it fits very well the definition of a control deck. 

Also here is a list of popular meta decks that play minions on board: the above mentioned Quest Handlock, Face Hunter, Elemental Shaman, Quest Shaman, Shadow Priest, Quest Rogue, Miracle Rogue (the variant with Field Contact), Aggro Druid, Deathrattle DH, all Paladin decks

Then there are a few 'scam' decks that only run a few minions and aim to create a big board with a huge swing turn: Lady Anacondra Druid, 6D Warlock, Glide/Brute Demon Hunter

And finally there are only 2 decks that don't play minions: Quest Mage and Poison/Weapon Rogue

Quote from SirJohn13 >>

Quest Handlock is probably one of the best decks in the game right now and it fits very well the definition of a control deck. 

Also here is a list of popular meta decks that play minions on board: the above mentioned Quest Handlock, Face Hunter, Elemental Shaman, Quest Shaman, Shadow Priest, Quest Rogue, Miracle Rogue (the variant with Field Contact), Aggro Druid, Deathrattle DH, all Paladin decks

Then there are a few 'scam' decks that only run a few minions and aim to create a big board with a huge swing turn: Lady Anacondra Druid, 6D Warlock, Glide/Brute Demon Hunter

And finally there are only 2 decks that don't play minions: Quest Mage and Poison/Weapon Rogue

 Quest Handlock is a midrange deck. It is in no way a control deck. They have no value cards, and they shit out most of their plays by turn 7 or 8.

Miracle Rogue has like a 45% winrate so I don't know why you're including it.

Anacondra Druid is barely played.

Quote from Anarchy1 >>

Quote from SinAscendant >>

Quote from Wyrdward >>

The game is designed for and not focused on slower decks. Agro decks are harder to pilot period and control decks loaded with removal and draw are too easy long for the style of mobile / pc hybrid game for hearthstone.

You need a win condition in your deck, I remember Pizza saying this on stream. People have this vision of hitting 10 mana and playing big cards but you need a win condition you can't expect to just not lose they need a plan to win.

 >aggro decks are harder to pilot

LMFAO what? No, no they aren't. There's nothing difficult about "play minion hit face". Aggro decks are what I play when I want to turn my brain off and burn through my bonus stars quick so I can play something actually fun. 

 Then you will play them bad. Might be enough to climb but not to play them good. Aggro mirrors are the most unforgiving matches in hs (if both players draw decent)

 No. They aren't. They are the easiest matches I ever have. I haven't bothered to push to Legend because I get bored but I have peaked about Diamond 3, so I'm not a bad player or anything. 

Your topic just made me realize that I’ve never been playing less HS. I did complete all the expansion’s achievements, as usual, but then I don’t see the point of launching games just to repeatedly auto-conceding against Warlock.

Regis Killbin, a devout control player, has been trying recently to articulate what exactly when wrong to make the meta the way that it is. I think he's coming to the conclusion that there are several contributing factors, and every once in a while he will point to one as it comes up in the match he's playing at that moment. So far, I think he's been absolutely right each time.

One factor was the introduction and overuse of the Rush keyword. Because it's not as deadly as Charge, Rush costs less and is included on a lot more minions than Charge ever was. Because Charge was always used so judiciously, we never saw what could happen if minion-based removal became common. It turns out that it makes board presence a lot less meaningful than it used to be. Nothing ever sticks around, and Taunt is a lot less safe than it used to be. This is bad news for traditional control archetypes, which could more reliably use large taunts as a survival tool.

Another factor is the increased prevalence of card draw. When decks draw more cards, games move faster. It's as simple as that. It's also safer for non-control decks to include more removal because they can rest assured that drawing removal won't kill their chances of drawing sticky threats and combo pieces. Of course, the other side of that coin is that non-stick threats have a much lower chance of sticking, carrying us further down the path of no-board Hearthstone.

I'll go ahead and add my own thought here: too many removal spells. In the olden days, removal spells were tied to class identity. Some classes simply had more than others. Now, every class has a LOT, and for the most part, it's all very cheap. In fact, it is almost universally much cheaper to remove a minion than it was to play the minion in the first place. (Emphasis on "much" because the mana economy demands that it be at least slightly cheaper, or the removal spell would not be playable.) Once again, this leads to no one ever sticking a board unless you are playing Paladin.

Incidentally, all of this also explains why Paladin is constantly at the top of the charts. Now more than ever, it is the class of sticky minions, allowing it to maintain threats on board when no other class is able to do so.

Yep, control-only player here.  I like to be reactive, trying to always stop my opponent from whatever they are doing, and maximizing my tools to do so.  It's the only way I find hearthstone to be an actual puzzle and thought-provoking.

I played about a week since the expansion came out, and haven't played ladder since.  You can no longer stop the opponent from what they are doing, and I don't see how they could print any sort of cards to achieve that without it being insanely overpowered.  I'm always hoping for a true control deck to come out, but haven't seen one yet.

Now, I just have been doing the odd battleground here and there, and playing against my alt account to complete the quests when needed.  Maybe next year when it rotates.  Everyone has a different style that they like, but this is the worst for my type of meta in a long while.

If you want to play viable control deck, try... Handlock! Obviously it's not a control deck in the classic sense, but in fact it's based on the same principles. You have to control the board (with removals and value trades), draw as manay cards as you can (to get more resources) and keep yourself alive long enough (using heals and taunts), to play your win condition. Main difference is that Handlock is much faster than let's say Tickatus Warlock or Control Priest, because his win condition can close the game on turn 6-8, not 12-15.

Actually, that was the biggest issue of control decks in last 2 expansions. They didn't have resources to survive long enough in their old-style "attrition games", where they tried to deplete all their opponent's threats. Because you can only have a limited amount of removals and healings, while modern aggro decks can deal up to 60 face damage (large portion is played from hand) and they almost never lose momentum (thanks to the very accessible card draw and mana cheating).

Handlock is the answer to some extent, because he's more proactive and doesn't need as many healing and removals. It's also pretty fair deck, because unlike most decks in the meta, his win condition is 100% based on board, not damage played from hand that you can't interact with.

I know it's not ideal, but I think it's the best we can get at this point. Enjoy while you can, because aggro players won't allow this deck to be viable for too long and the nerfs will come eventually. Any form of control (even fast one with real win condition) cannot exist in HS.