Disclaimer: I am citing HSReplay free statistics. They're not great, but they are better than nothing. First of all we need to identify problems in the meta. You don't nerf random things just cause. Wild Problems: Wild Questlock wins too fast and has inevitability too quickly. Standard Problems: OTK decks choke out control decks.
Something in Wild Quest Zoolock needs to be nerfed not only because of power level concerns, but because of play patterns. Wild Quest Zoolock is one of the fastest decks in the format in terms of game length, but it is also bundled a win condition that oppresses any strategy that wants to go beyond turn 6 or so. Although Darkglare enables many of the very nutty plays that are considered mana cheating, the card that allows Wild Quest Zoolock AND Standard Quest Zoolock to be so good is actually Flesh Giant. Off mulligan on both versions, 8 mana flesh giant is either the best or second best Mulligan in the deck. Darkglare is also a significant problem, but flesh giant being such good payoff card is very concerning. That being said, I think the quest speed also be addressed somehow. Once you complete it, you basically win and very otk-esque wins are not ideal in Hearthstone. There's the very obvious nerf of increasing the damage that you need to take to complete the quest quite a bit which I think is going to happen.
Mage also has the win speed problem like Warlock. Just nerf Incanter's Flow to 3 mana and your spells cannot cost under 1. That WILL help make the mage wins feel slower as they will have a harder time cycling through their deck. Figure out what to do with mage afterwards. Honestly, this will kill mage but Flow is a feels bad card for the opponent.
You may think that the "solitaire" nature of the meta needs more for it to be fixed. I am cautiously optimistic that these changes would alleviate the solitaire issue as this change hurts the already declining decks, allowing space for control decks to pop up.
But at the same time, by removing mage from the equation, paladin becomes a problem since the only way to beat this class is rogue now. There are 3 contenders I want to mention. Alliance Bannerman, Conviction, and Battlegrounds Master. Alliance Bannerman is the highest win percent mulligan in the deck. Conviction and Battlegrounds Master are extremely powerful finishers and are reminiscent of Crabrider snowballs. I prefer nerfing Conviction to 2 attack just because the reach from Conviction often feels more unfair than Alliance Bannerman, but I feel like these nerfs could go any way.
Those are the most often talked about classes. I know that Garrotte Rogue is often talked about but it's proven itself to be trash. Now to other decks which are mostly aggro. I don't know what's the best cards to nerf to achieve equilibrium, but here we go. Face Hunter - No clear power outliers but I think you are looking to nerf burn and aimed shot seems to be best burn card in the deck. (Aggro) Elemental Shaman - 2 cards. Wailing Elemental and Granite Forgeborn. On play AND mulligan outliers. I would probably touch Wailing Elemental first as it sees play in more shaman decks and snowballing 1 drops are dangerous for the game. Doomhammer burn can be a problem, but I am a little more reluctant to nerf it since you either choose the doom hammer package or the whack package. Rush Warrior - Let this one be for now. Old and simple to play archetype; people will probably not flock to this archetype enough for rush warrior to be a problem class. Spell Druid - Will solve itself when people play removal again. Aggro Priest - I mean, we haven't seen aggro priest be good ever. Cool archetype, folds vs super board decks. Don't touch the most interesting priest deck in the last couple expansions. Quest Shaman - Don't touch for now mostly because complaints for this archetype are rare. Quest Rogue - Not on the list of 10 decks to nerf, but this could be a problem if ALL mage, hunter, and shaman get nerfed. Very hard to determine what's the best thing to nerf. I would prefer a nerf to an outlier gizmo if there is one or the quest itself if there aren't outlier gizmos.
Some fair suggestion here, although the double nerf to Flow (3 mana AND not to decrease below 1) is too harsh. Flesh Giant to 10 mana would be a nerf I'd welcome. As for Hunter, I think there is a power outlier, a card that allows Hunters to (on top of all the burn they have) fight back for board early or completely dominate the board and snowball out of control: Kolkar Pack Runner. This card is a bit too good and could be toned down a bit.
Mage Quest and Stealer of Souls is all that needs to be adjusted. Fix them and Control decks will improve and then drop Face Hunter and Paladin win rates. Control priest and warrior is what keeps aggro deck in check.
I'll be happy as long as they don't touch Stealer of Souls. If it gets nerfed and people cut it from their questlock decks, Warlock WRs will skyrocket. Right now players are donating lots of wins on the ladder by chasing this 'miracle t5-t6 OTK' with Stealer instead of playing one of the good decks
already told you, nerfs are not going to cut it this time. All the quests and half the cards in this expansion are broken. Tempo has been irreperably damaged short of massive rounds of nerfs like you saw with DK last year. Team 5 is awful.
Questlock needs a nerf. There was never a wild deck with such a good winrate as questlock. Starlight druid, mech paladin, all were over 70% but 85% of questlock is insane. The winrate falls, cause there are more and more mirror matches. For a wild only player the expansion hasn't begun. It is unplayable.
Nerfs are very hard this time. The questline decks are not really too strong, but make a too undynamic meta. I would like to see a card for control decks, that help them against the questlines. Kinda like Mutanus, but for questlines. This way, hopefully control has a chance in the meta and aggro is a bit toned down. There are some nerfs though, I want to see:
Incanters Flow to 3 Mana Stealer of Souls to 5 Mana A small nerf to aggro hunter Bannerman to 4 Mana
Thats it for nerfs I think. Most decks are kinda ok as they are now. We actually need a control buff to handle the questlines better.
Flow to banlist Standard/Wild SoS to banlist Standard
Hunter quest to add one more instance of dmg in 1st and 2nd step 3 mana shot to target minions only. 4 mana spell that summons void walkers to summon only one. Same with the warlock quest to bump it up by 2 per step. Nerf to Shamans hammer to loose 2 durability. Nerf to shamans 1 2 3 cost ones by 1 hp. Nerf to DH quest to requre 1 more draw in 1st phase. Nerf to conviction to 2 atk instead of 3 atk. Nerf to octo bot to 3 hp.
Incanter's Flow: make it 3* and add "but not less than 1*". Maybe also remove arcane tag.
Mage quest is too easy and Ingnite is an 'infuriating' card.
Warlock quest is bad for a healthy game and should just be removed, just like Tickatus forced aggro into the meta and didn't allow control and board-centered strategies to exist.
Did you listen to the vicious syndicate podcast? I think that while these are good suggestions for potential nerfs, the idea that nerfs are necessary is rather overblown. Furthermore, if you listed 7 of the 10 classes as most likely needing a change, then it might just be that none of them need a change. And I'm saying this a priest player.
I have not heard the VS podcast but these ideas would be more in line with Iksar’s comment a couple days ago regarding mass nerfs and a “power level reset”. I know he implied that it would take place during the set rotation but I think the unrest and dissatisfaction regarding the “turbo solitaire” state of the game is too prevalent to ignore until next year. Basically, I believe win conditions and OTK combos should never be viable before turn 10 and that the design philosophy of the Stormwind set was a mistake.
>win conditions should never be viable before turn 10
Come tf on dude, that's ridiculous. Even the heaviest control decks average something like a 12.3. The answer isn't "eliminate all aggro and midrange decks from the game", a glacial control meta is absolutely not an improvement.
Questlock needs a nerf. There was never a wild deck with such a good winrate as questlock. Starlight druid, mech paladin, all were over 70% but 85% of questlock is insane. The winrate falls, cause there are more and more mirror matches. For a wild only player the expansion hasn't begun. It is unplayable.
Questlock is 49% winrate in Standard. For the hundredth time, the game is not balanced around Wild. There is literally no way to balance it in Wild short of just removing the quest altogether.
Mage: Incanter's Flow - Increased to 4 mana. Quest rewards change: 1#Draw a minion, 2#Discover a mage minion.
Warlock: Stealer of Souls - Next card drawn costs health instead of mana. Flesh Giant: Cost increased to 10. Quest: Increase each step my one, remove lifesteal on quest completion steps.
Hunter: Kolkar Pack Runner: Increase ot 3 mana. Rhino: Increase to 6 mana. Warsong Wrangler: Changed to 3/3, only gives +1/+1 to drawn minion.
Shaman: Windfury Elemental: Change to 2/4. Quest: Increase each step completion requirement by 1.
Paladin: Conviction: Change to give +2 attack. Divine shield weapon: Reduce to 2 charges.
Rogue: Octobot: Increase to 3 mana. Quest: Requires 1 more minions per completion step.
Priest: Void Touched Attendant: Changed to 1/2.
DH: Il'gynoth: Cost increased to 7. Death Speaker Blackthorn: Cost increased to 8. Razorboar: Changed back to 2/2. Quest: Requires one more card to be drawn per completion.
Druid: Oracle of Elune: Cost increased to 4. Arbor Up: Cost increased to 6.
Warrior: Sword Eater: Changed to 2/4. Cargo Guard: Changed to 2/3.
Neutral: Gadgetzan Auctioneer: Cost increased to 8. Battleground Battlemaster: Cost increased to 7. Cult Neophyte: Changed to 2/2. Mo'arg artificer: Cost increased to 3.
Mage Quest and Stealer of Souls is all that needs to be adjusted. Fix them and Control decks will improve and then drop Face Hunter and Paladin win rates. Control priest and warrior is what keeps aggro deck in check.
I think this is a lot more complicated than just a "nerf these cards and its all good" situation.
Iksar said on Twitter that just outvaluing your opponent wont be a valid wincon going forward, meaning they want to delete pure control decks from the game. Every slow deck will simply be a combo deck with control tools, and thats it.
This is WAAAAY too big of a change, its not something they could pull off in a single expansion, so we're in the middle of a huge transition rn.
If you like grinding your way into victory, the game is not for you anymore, plain and simple. A couple of nerfs wont change this.
Mage: Incanter's Flow - Increased to 4 mana. Quest rewards change: 1#Draw a minion, 2#Discover a mage minion.
Warlock: Stealer of Souls - Next card drawn costs health instead of mana. Flesh Giant: Cost increased to 10. Quest: Increase each step my one, remove lifesteal on quest completion steps.
Hunter: Kolkar Pack Runner: Increase ot 3 mana. Rhino: Increase to 6 mana. Warsong Wrangler: Changed to 3/3, only gives +1/+1 to drawn minion.
Shaman: Windfury Elemental: Change to 2/4. Quest: Increase each step completion requirement by 1.
Paladin: Conviction: Change to give +2 attack. Divine shield weapon: Reduce to 2 charges.
Rogue: Octobot: Increase to 3 mana. Quest: Requires 1 more minions per completion step.
Priest: Void Touched Attendant: Changed to 1/2.
DH: Il'gynoth: Cost increased to 7. Death Speaker Blackthorn: Cost increased to 8. Razorboar: Changed back to 2/2. Quest: Requires one more card to be drawn per completion.
Druid: Oracle of Elune: Cost increased to 4. Arbor Up: Cost increased to 6.
Warrior: Sword Eater: Changed to 2/4. Cargo Guard: Changed to 2/3.
Neutral: Gadgetzan Auctioneer: Cost increased to 8. Battleground Battlemaster: Cost increased to 7. Cult Neophyte: Changed to 2/2. Mo'arg artificer: Cost increased to 3.
This basically kills every single deck. Way too many changes. Basically kills some classes. But I guess you want to nerf anything you don’t like/play?
Some fair suggestion here, although the double nerf to Flow (3 mana AND not to decrease below 1) is too harsh. Flesh Giant to 10 mana would be a nerf I'd welcome. As for Hunter, I think there is a power outlier, a card that allows Hunters to (on top of all the burn they have) fight back for board early or completely dominate the board and snowball out of control: Kolkar Pack Runner. This card is a bit too good and could be toned down a bit.
Mage Quest and Stealer of Souls is all that needs to be adjusted. Fix them and Control decks will improve and then drop Face Hunter and Paladin win rates. Control priest and warrior is what keeps aggro deck in check.
I got a feeling that nerfs will happen which will allow Aggro Piest to run wild on the ladder and people gonna be pissssssssed.
Anything as long as they kill this fucking Battleground Battlemaster abomination!!!!!!!!!!!
I'll be happy as long as they don't touch Stealer of Souls. If it gets nerfed and people cut it from their questlock decks, Warlock WRs will skyrocket. Right now players are donating lots of wins on the ladder by chasing this 'miracle t5-t6 OTK' with Stealer instead of playing one of the good decks
already told you, nerfs are not going to cut it this time. All the quests and half the cards in this expansion are broken. Tempo has been irreperably damaged short of massive rounds of nerfs like you saw with DK last year. Team 5 is awful.
Questlock needs a nerf. There was never a wild deck with such a good winrate as questlock. Starlight druid, mech paladin, all were over 70% but 85% of questlock is insane. The winrate falls, cause there are more and more mirror matches. For a wild only player the expansion hasn't begun. It is unplayable.
Nerfs are very hard this time. The questline decks are not really too strong, but make a too undynamic meta. I would like to see a card for control decks, that help them against the questlines. Kinda like Mutanus, but for questlines. This way, hopefully control has a chance in the meta and aggro is a bit toned down. There are some nerfs though, I want to see:
Incanters Flow to 3 Mana
Stealer of Souls to 5 Mana
A small nerf to aggro hunter
Bannerman to 4 Mana
Thats it for nerfs I think. Most decks are kinda ok as they are now. We actually need a control buff to handle the questlines better.
U know what since we are doing this
Flow to banlist Standard/Wild
SoS to banlist Standard
Hunter quest to add one more instance of dmg in 1st and 2nd step
3 mana shot to target minions only.
4 mana spell that summons void walkers to summon only one.
Same with the warlock quest to bump it up by 2 per step.
Nerf to Shamans hammer to loose 2 durability.
Nerf to shamans 1 2 3 cost ones by 1 hp.
Nerf to DH quest to requre 1 more draw in 1st phase.
Nerf to conviction to 2 atk instead of 3 atk.
Nerf to octo bot to 3 hp.
Incanter's Flow: make it 3* and add "but not less than 1*". Maybe also remove arcane tag.
Mage quest is too easy and Ingnite is an 'infuriating' card.
Warlock quest is bad for a healthy game and should just be removed, just like Tickatus forced aggro into the meta and didn't allow control and board-centered strategies to exist.
>win conditions should never be viable before turn 10
Come tf on dude, that's ridiculous. Even the heaviest control decks average something like a 12.3. The answer isn't "eliminate all aggro and midrange decks from the game", a glacial control meta is absolutely not an improvement.
Questlock is 49% winrate in Standard. For the hundredth time, the game is not balanced around Wild. There is literally no way to balance it in Wild short of just removing the quest altogether.
Mage:
Incanter's Flow - Increased to 4 mana.
Quest rewards change: 1#Draw a minion, 2#Discover a mage minion.
Warlock:
Stealer of Souls - Next card drawn costs health instead of mana.
Flesh Giant: Cost increased to 10.
Quest: Increase each step my one, remove lifesteal on quest completion steps.
Hunter:
Kolkar Pack Runner: Increase ot 3 mana.
Rhino: Increase to 6 mana.
Warsong Wrangler: Changed to 3/3, only gives +1/+1 to drawn minion.
Shaman:
Windfury Elemental: Change to 2/4.
Quest: Increase each step completion requirement by 1.
Paladin:
Conviction: Change to give +2 attack.
Divine shield weapon: Reduce to 2 charges.
Rogue:
Octobot: Increase to 3 mana.
Quest: Requires 1 more minions per completion step.
Priest:
Void Touched Attendant: Changed to 1/2.
DH:
Il'gynoth: Cost increased to 7.
Death Speaker Blackthorn: Cost increased to 8.
Razorboar: Changed back to 2/2.
Quest: Requires one more card to be drawn per completion.
Druid:
Oracle of Elune: Cost increased to 4.
Arbor Up: Cost increased to 6.
Warrior:
Sword Eater: Changed to 2/4.
Cargo Guard: Changed to 2/3.
Neutral:
Gadgetzan Auctioneer: Cost increased to 8.
Battleground Battlemaster: Cost increased to 7.
Cult Neophyte: Changed to 2/2.
Mo'arg artificer: Cost increased to 3.
this card is incredibly broken indeed... it shoul cost at least like 7 mana
Most sensible comment . Fully agreed
I think this is a lot more complicated than just a "nerf these cards and its all good" situation.
Iksar said on Twitter that just outvaluing your opponent wont be a valid wincon going forward, meaning they want to delete pure control decks from the game. Every slow deck will simply be a combo deck with control tools, and thats it.
This is WAAAAY too big of a change, its not something they could pull off in a single expansion, so we're in the middle of a huge transition rn.
If you like grinding your way into victory, the game is not for you anymore, plain and simple. A couple of nerfs wont change this.
This basically kills every single deck. Way too many changes. Basically kills some classes. But I guess you want to nerf anything you don’t like/play?
What's the point of nerfing everything indeed? Achieve a Yeti meta?