I agree Ignite is bad design. Playing against Quest mage as control I have ate the Quest reward guy and still lost many times due to the cycle and never ending stream of damage. Not sure how to fix it without destroying it though... maybe something like "Deal 2 damage. If you have more than 5 cards left in your deck shuffle a copy that deals one more damage." At least this keeps the initial power and feel intact but caps the amount of damage that can keep being generated and opens mages back up to fatigue damage again.
ignite is not an issue, its the fact that quest mage only goes fast to spam it because of the massive amount of cheap spells.
Ignite is the issue 100%.
Spell mage’s largest drawback was its massive draw lead to early fatigue, combined with the fact that some decks like priest and warrior could tank the damage.
Ignite COMPLETELY nullifies this weakness. Not only does it completely remove their ability to ever fatigue, but they also have infinite damage because of it.
The big issue is cost reduction. Mage, warlock, and rogue can play things for free that should cost mana. Right now, there is way too much mana cheating in the game.
This is so crazy! Then on top of that! You need to deal with discover which is the worst!! Infinite random generation plus on top!! The neverending rng!!! Like man! Before it was at least just rng but now? You got to deal with so many cheating things it just rages. Like why would they want the players to feel opressed all the time? dude is stressful and idiotic.
When you're time is done and the cord is burned at the end you're tour is over and the opponent takes over.
That's how it is and how it has always worked.
What you are seeing is animations being played out for cards that have been queued during their turn. No cheating going on. Restart the game if you want to skip the animations.
Even though I had a whole post about mana reduction, I don't actually think that's the main issue here either, as the shuffled ignites presumably return to full cost (even if the rest of the deck is discounted). Mana reduction does facilitate the draw though.
Ignite at full two mana doesn't matter when all your other cards cost one or two less. You can then always fit it in somewhere.
Also the ramping damage is only useful versus decks that can tank the damage. I played a mirror the other day and the other mage completed the quest on T7 and played Dawngrasp while I was still at stage 2 going into T8. Too bad that he was at 22 health because I just burned him with double Apexis, double Fireball for 8 mana. Yes it was triple Incanter's.
Don't get me wrong, Ignite helps with the late game when you just need to draw any burn, but the deck runs plenty of those.
p.s. *off-topic* tell me again why renew and apotheosis got nerfed???
Renew was too much value for one low price, and allowing it to be generated by Wandmaker made it way, way too good. Releasing it at a Cost of 1 was just plain wrong.
Apotheosis was nerfed because of its interaction with Samuro, no other reason.
I assume you are wandering down this path because you think Quest Mage should not be allowed to outlast a fatigue-style Priest deck. The thing is, the recent versions of Quest Priest are perfectly capable of beating Mage long before fatigue, even if the Priest never finishes the quest. They just win with a lot of heals and good boards that the Mage can't deal with. This is much a much healthier win condition than dragging every game into fatigue.
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"Why, you never expected justice from a company, did you? They have neither a soul to lose nor a body to kick." -- Lady Saba Holland
p.s. *off-topic* tell me again why renew and apotheosis got nerfed???
Renew was too much value for one low price, and allowing it to be generated by Wandmaker made it way, way too good. Releasing it at a Cost of 1 was just plain wrong.
Apotheosis was nerfed because of its interaction with Samuro, no other reason.
I assume you are wandering down this path because you think Quest Mage should not be allowed to outlast a fatigue-style Priest deck. The thing is, the recent versions of Quest Priest are perfectly capable of beating Mage long before fatigue, even if the Priest never finishes the quest. They just win with a lot of heals and good boards that the Mage can't deal with. This is much a much healthier win condition than dragging every game into fatigue.
Not sure why you think I'm specifically referencing quest mage when I mentioned renew and apotheosis, nor why fatigue matters in that discussion either. If you read my post you would also see that I actually said I didn't think ignite needed a nerf as the only decks it really punishes are super greedy control decks (the sort of fatigue deck you seem to think I want to play).
Either way - I don't think either card (renew or apotheosis) is particularly overpowered for the cost. If potentially generating another renew from wandmaker is such a problem then maybe fix/change wandmaker. As for Samuro - he is a one-off in a deck and can be played around by not going wide on the board. If massive burst damage is OK for multiple classes why shoudn't massive healing be OK for the healing class?
Also - a priest deck beating a quest mage once in a while has no bearing on either of these cards.
p.s. *off-topic* tell me again why renew and apotheosis got nerfed???
Renew was too much value for one low price, and allowing it to be generated by Wandmaker made it way, way too good. Releasing it at a Cost of 1 was just plain wrong.
Apotheosis was nerfed because of its interaction with Samuro, no other reason.
I assume you are wandering down this path because you think Quest Mage should not be allowed to outlast a fatigue-style Priest deck. The thing is, the recent versions of Quest Priest are perfectly capable of beating Mage long before fatigue, even if the Priest never finishes the quest. They just win with a lot of heals and good boards that the Mage can't deal with. This is much a much healthier win condition than dragging every game into fatigue.
I really want to know what kind of Quest Priest you are talking about here. Sorry, but it simply seems wrong. How does Quest Priest beat a Quest Mage? Building a board is useless because the Mage just freezes the minions over and over again. You straight up help them finish their quest faster by playing minions. Healing? Like, are you serious here? Quest Mage can burn you down from 30 health easily after Arcanist Dawngrasp is played. Healing is completely worthless against them. So, i want to know about this magical quest priest list that somehow beats Mage. It doesn't sound realistic at all.
p.s. *off-topic* tell me again why renew and apotheosis got nerfed???
Renew was too much value for one low price, and allowing it to be generated by Wandmaker made it way, way too good. Releasing it at a Cost of 1 was just plain wrong.
Apotheosis was nerfed because of its interaction with Samuro, no other reason.
I assume you are wandering down this path because you think Quest Mage should not be allowed to outlast a fatigue-style Priest deck. The thing is, the recent versions of Quest Priest are perfectly capable of beating Mage long before fatigue, even if the Priest never finishes the quest. They just win with a lot of heals and good boards that the Mage can't deal with. This is much a much healthier win condition than dragging every game into fatigue.
I really want to know what kind of Quest Priest you are talking about here. Sorry, but it simply seems wrong. How does Quest Priest beat a Quest Mage? Building a board is useless because the Mage just freezes the minions over and over again. You straight up help them finish their quest faster by playing minions. Healing? Like, are you serious here? Quest Mage can burn you down from 30 health easily after Arcanist Dawngrasp is played. Healing is completely worthless against them. So, i want to know about this magical quest priest list that somehow beats Mage. It doesn't sound realistic at all.
Quest priest has the exact same winrate quest mage has (47%), and this is according to internal blizzard data, not "my incredibly relevant personal experience on ladder" (https://twitter.com/sky_tding/status/1435452830748344320/photo/1) . As to how, it's not particularly difficult, if a priest lands robes of protection and/or the 4/6 watchpost what do you think a mage can do exactly? In no way shape or form is it a good matchup but priests hardly roll over.
I really want to know what kind of Quest Priest you are talking about here. Sorry, but it simply seems wrong. How does Quest Priest beat a Quest Mage? Building a board is useless because the Mage just freezes the minions over and over again. You straight up help them finish their quest faster by playing minions. Healing? Like, are you serious here? Quest Mage can burn you down from 30 health easily after Arcanist Dawngrasp is played. Healing is completely worthless against them. So, i want to know about this magical quest priest list that somehow beats Mage. It doesn't sound realistic at all.
Watch Kibler play Quest Priest. He destroys Quest Mages on a regular basis, and it's not just cherry-picking good games for YouTube. I've played the same deck with similar results.
As for burning you down from 30, that means you've played poorly or built a terrible deck. You should be applying enough pressure and interference (from watch posts and ogres) that the Mage has to spend face burn on minions just to stay alive. Freezing a board with towers and ogres is only going to make things much, much worse for the Mage.
And no, these are not tech cards that ruin your deck against other meta decks. Towers and ogres are just all-around good because minion-heavy decks cannot compete in this removal-heavy meta.
This expansion is in need for a serious loatheb becuase cult neophyte is not making the job properly... there is way too much mana cheating in the fact almost 90% of the time ignites are 0 cost due to enchanters flow
Ignite note should be 5 mana deal 5 damage or 4 mana deal 4. We have enough OP cards in the "less than 3 mana" realm...
I’m not sure if this is what you’re referring to exactly but if Ignite changed from a 2 mana deal 2 damage, then a 3 mana deal 3, 4 mana deal 4 and so on it would be a much more acceptable card. The damage needs to scale with the cost, especially when it has +3 spell damage applied damn near every time anyhow
This expansion is in need for a serious loatheb becuase cult neophyte is not making the job properly... there is way too much mana cheating in the fact almost 90% of the time ignites are 0 cost due to enchanters flow
Sorry but endless scaling damage isnt exactly “pointless”. And mage is already drawing 4 cards for ZERO with cram session+ incanter’s flow + their quest reward so they already cheat out enough mana as it is. There has to be some sort of drawback for the infinite fireballs which currently does not exist
Sorry but endless scaling damage isnt exactly “pointless”. And mage is already drawing 4 cards for ZERO with cram session+ incanter’s flow + their quest reward so they already cheat out enough mana as it is. There has to be some sort of drawback for the infinite fireballs which currently does not exist
It's the mana cheating that's so frustrating. I just had a game where a Mage put down the quest reward on turn 7, and with 2 mana left, they:
Discovered a 1-mana spell damage minion for zero (primordial studies), which they put down for free (lab partner);
Drew *8 cards* (cram session for zero plus 1 mana arcane intellect);
Killed a 6/6 with taunt (first flame for zero);
Went face for 6 damage for zero mana *and* discovered another spell (runed orb).
Obviously that's a near-perfect turn but it's too easy to have turns that are almost that good. The ability to have an empty board, empty hand, and still be *winning* is nuts.
Scaling Ignite's mana cost would solve nothing, because who cares if 3 damage Ignite is going to cost them (0) or (1) if it is still going to murder you before they get to pay high mana for an Ignite. Seriously, so far 99% of the times I have died before seeing a 4 damage Ignite, or at best right at the moment they cast that one. In fact, the worst thing is, terribly designed as Ignite is, it still is a (somewhat) balanced card.
The problem is you can't just have an infinite damage card in the same deck where your spells cost 0 and you draw your entire deck before turn 8.
I played some Wild for the first time ever. With Pirate Warrior.
Good stuff, actual Hearthstone.
I used to view wild as something a bit crazy, but standard is where the stupid lives right now.
I played against a few Warriors, a Rogue, a Warlock (Evenlock, the Pirate Warrior counter), a Mage that conceded before the game and a Druid, a hunter.
Everyone played minions. Except the Druid. And he died.
So if you want to play some Hearthstone where they do stuff like play minions and make value trades, you might consider giving wild a shot.
I had the Pirate Quest from a pack and Rokara from making legend for the first time (on this 2nd account I have so I can play versus someone in real life) --- I dusted Illucia for the full 1600 and crafted a key pirate legendary weapon -- and I was a few commons (40 dust a piece) from fielding a great deck.
I never thought I'd play Wild, but it was far more real Hearthstone than what is going on in Standard.
And I am very thankful Wild exists. My sole experience in wild before was zero except enjoying Roffle and Dane videos.
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I agree Ignite is bad design. Playing against Quest mage as control I have ate the Quest reward guy and still lost many times due to the cycle and never ending stream of damage. Not sure how to fix it without destroying it though... maybe something like "Deal 2 damage. If you have more than 5 cards left in your deck shuffle a copy that deals one more damage." At least this keeps the initial power and feel intact but caps the amount of damage that can keep being generated and opens mages back up to fatigue damage again.
I agree it’s so so so bad designed. Trash cArd.
This is so crazy! Then on top of that! You need to deal with discover which is the worst!! Infinite random generation plus on top!! The neverending rng!!! Like man! Before it was at least just rng but now? You got to deal with so many cheating things it just rages. Like why would they want the players to feel opressed all the time? dude is stressful and idiotic.
That's how it is and how it has always worked.
What you are seeing is animations being played out for cards that have been queued during their turn. No cheating going on. Restart the game if you want to skip the animations.
Ignite at full two mana doesn't matter when all your other cards cost one or two less. You can then always fit it in somewhere.
Also the ramping damage is only useful versus decks that can tank the damage. I played a mirror the other day and the other mage completed the quest on T7 and played Dawngrasp while I was still at stage 2 going into T8. Too bad that he was at 22 health because I just burned him with double Apexis, double Fireball for 8 mana. Yes it was triple Incanter's.
Don't get me wrong, Ignite helps with the late game when you just need to draw any burn, but the deck runs plenty of those.
Renew was too much value for one low price, and allowing it to be generated by Wandmaker made it way, way too good. Releasing it at a Cost of 1 was just plain wrong.
Apotheosis was nerfed because of its interaction with Samuro, no other reason.
I assume you are wandering down this path because you think Quest Mage should not be allowed to outlast a fatigue-style Priest deck. The thing is, the recent versions of Quest Priest are perfectly capable of beating Mage long before fatigue, even if the Priest never finishes the quest. They just win with a lot of heals and good boards that the Mage can't deal with. This is much a much healthier win condition than dragging every game into fatigue.
"Why, you never expected justice from a company, did you? They have neither a soul to lose nor a body to kick." -- Lady Saba Holland
Not sure why you think I'm specifically referencing quest mage when I mentioned renew and apotheosis, nor why fatigue matters in that discussion either. If you read my post you would also see that I actually said I didn't think ignite needed a nerf as the only decks it really punishes are super greedy control decks (the sort of fatigue deck you seem to think I want to play).
Either way - I don't think either card (renew or apotheosis) is particularly overpowered for the cost. If potentially generating another renew from wandmaker is such a problem then maybe fix/change wandmaker. As for Samuro - he is a one-off in a deck and can be played around by not going wide on the board. If massive burst damage is OK for multiple classes why shoudn't massive healing be OK for the healing class?
Also - a priest deck beating a quest mage once in a while has no bearing on either of these cards.
I really want to know what kind of Quest Priest you are talking about here. Sorry, but it simply seems wrong. How does Quest Priest beat a Quest Mage? Building a board is useless because the Mage just freezes the minions over and over again. You straight up help them finish their quest faster by playing minions. Healing? Like, are you serious here? Quest Mage can burn you down from 30 health easily after Arcanist Dawngrasp is played. Healing is completely worthless against them. So, i want to know about this magical quest priest list that somehow beats Mage. It doesn't sound realistic at all.
Quest priest has the exact same winrate quest mage has (47%), and this is according to internal blizzard data, not "my incredibly relevant personal experience on ladder" (https://twitter.com/sky_tding/status/1435452830748344320/photo/1) . As to how, it's not particularly difficult, if a priest lands robes of protection and/or the 4/6 watchpost what do you think a mage can do exactly? In no way shape or form is it a good matchup but priests hardly roll over.
Watch Kibler play Quest Priest. He destroys Quest Mages on a regular basis, and it's not just cherry-picking good games for YouTube. I've played the same deck with similar results.
As for burning you down from 30, that means you've played poorly or built a terrible deck. You should be applying enough pressure and interference (from watch posts and ogres) that the Mage has to spend face burn on minions just to stay alive. Freezing a board with towers and ogres is only going to make things much, much worse for the Mage.
And no, these are not tech cards that ruin your deck against other meta decks. Towers and ogres are just all-around good because minion-heavy decks cannot compete in this removal-heavy meta.
"Why, you never expected justice from a company, did you? They have neither a soul to lose nor a body to kick." -- Lady Saba Holland
This expansion is in need for a serious loatheb becuase cult neophyte is not making the job properly... there is way too much mana cheating in the fact almost 90% of the time ignites are 0 cost due to enchanters flow
Ignite is not a problem.
Det är bättre med en fågel i hand, än tiger i träd!
Ignite note should be 5 mana deal 5 damage or 4 mana deal 4. We have enough OP cards in the "less than 3 mana" realm...
"... but not less than (1)" is needed now more than ever!
I’m not sure if this is what you’re referring to exactly but if Ignite changed from a 2 mana deal 2 damage, then a 3 mana deal 3, 4 mana deal 4 and so on it would be a much more acceptable card. The damage needs to scale with the cost, especially when it has +3 spell damage applied damn near every time anyhow
Um then u add towers deck to slow mage down.
That'd be... pointless. The card would become worse every time you shuffle it into your deck.
Sorry but endless scaling damage isnt exactly “pointless”. And mage is already drawing 4 cards for ZERO with cram session+ incanter’s flow + their quest reward so they already cheat out enough mana as it is. There has to be some sort of drawback for the infinite fireballs which currently does not exist
It's the mana cheating that's so frustrating. I just had a game where a Mage put down the quest reward on turn 7, and with 2 mana left, they:
Discovered a 1-mana spell damage minion for zero (primordial studies), which they put down for free (lab partner);
Drew *8 cards* (cram session for zero plus 1 mana arcane intellect);
Killed a 6/6 with taunt (first flame for zero);
Went face for 6 damage for zero mana *and* discovered another spell (runed orb).
Obviously that's a near-perfect turn but it's too easy to have turns that are almost that good. The ability to have an empty board, empty hand, and still be *winning* is nuts.
Mages have 5 cards that draw cards plus 5 cards that draws miscellaneous stuff. On top of 8 discover cards.
And im not counting neutral cards who draws and discover stuff.
Why it is being buffed?
Scaling Ignite's mana cost would solve nothing, because who cares if 3 damage Ignite is going to cost them (0) or (1) if it is still going to murder you before they get to pay high mana for an Ignite. Seriously, so far 99% of the times I have died before seeing a 4 damage Ignite, or at best right at the moment they cast that one. In fact, the worst thing is, terribly designed as Ignite is, it still is a (somewhat) balanced card.
The problem is you can't just have an infinite damage card in the same deck where your spells cost 0 and you draw your entire deck before turn 8.
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I played some Wild for the first time ever. With Pirate Warrior.
Good stuff, actual Hearthstone.
I used to view wild as something a bit crazy, but standard is where the stupid lives right now.
I played against a few Warriors, a Rogue, a Warlock (Evenlock, the Pirate Warrior counter), a Mage that conceded before the game and a Druid, a hunter.
Everyone played minions. Except the Druid. And he died.
So if you want to play some Hearthstone where they do stuff like play minions and make value trades, you might consider giving wild a shot.
I had the Pirate Quest from a pack and Rokara from making legend for the first time (on this 2nd account I have so I can play versus someone in real life) --- I dusted Illucia for the full 1600 and crafted a key pirate legendary weapon -- and I was a few commons (40 dust a piece) from fielding a great deck.
I never thought I'd play Wild, but it was far more real Hearthstone than what is going on in Standard.
And I am very thankful Wild exists. My sole experience in wild before was zero except enjoying Roffle and Dane videos.