Wild as a concept is supposed to be broken, and I am glad that there are only a handful of top-tier decks. However it is no longer possible to enjoy all of wild which is unfair. Why Fix The Caverns Below or Yogg-Saron, Hope's End, for example, when other classes can no longer compete as their core cards are now totally unplayable? As a Wild player, I don't mind losing to better decks, but I do mind not being able to play my favourite decks of the past!
A note on why Patch 2.7.0.9166(2015-6-15): In my opinion: Patron Warrior was a powerful deck that required a high skill level to play; and I therefore see it as fair deck. Before this patch; Leeroy Jenkins cost 4-mana, Gadgetzan Auctioneer cost 5-mana, Soulfire cost 0-mana etc., and I think that most of these nerfs were also fair.
A Sidenote on the Demon Hunter class: As Demon Dunter was added later, I would keep all Demon Hunter nerfs in place.
To be clear: Hearthstone is now a game where Wild cards have become less powerful and Standard cards continue to raise their power level. This means that most Wild decks after Patch_2.7.0.9166 are worse than their Standard counterparts, and therefore; the way things are, Wild mode is almost pointless. It is a shell of what it was. Please Blizzard, let me play my old decks again: I don't want to win, I want to have fun!
Power creep: That is the issue you are describing, as new cards roll out sometimes new archetypes are created and old ones are not viable.
Nerfs: Good idea to revert old nerfs after the sets rotate out of standard. Dreadsteed for example, as long as they aren't game breaking (stealer of souls for example)
Hearthstone is now a game where Wild cards have become less powerful and Standard cards continue to raise their power level.
This is just not true. There is a power creep for sure. But in standard there are far less synergy cards than in wild. So wild decks are a LOT more powerful and consistent than standard ones.
Personally I wouldnt mind some more unnerfs like Execute or Flametongue Totem. Actually I demand a Dreadsteed unnerf! But some of the nerfed cards should stay as they are now in my opinion like Shadowboxer or Barnes.
You say that you are a wild player and "wild mode is almost pointless". I dont think you get what wild mode is all about.
The problem is you've presented two contradictory desires. There was a GDC talk about this called 'Cursed Problems in Game Design' where one or more promises made to players are not being met because your other promises to players contradict that promise.
Because many of those cards were never in standard decks, or continued to be used post nerf, meaning different decks used the card for different purposes.
For example, reverting Execute to 1 mana allows Classic decks to be rebuilt in Wild, but now Even Warrior decks (yes, they were a thing, even reaching rank 39 legend) can't use the card.
Or using the Dreadsteed example - Dreadsteed + Defile was never a combo in Standard or Wild specifically because it was nerfed before Defile even entered the game.
Unnerfing any of these examples will not fix Wild because it would only break your own expectations in other ways - and not because of overall power, but because your expectation doesn't fit with the current rules of the format.
If you want to unnerf any of the quoted cards, you'd also need to implement a system where including the unnerfed versions of said cards also bans any cards that were released after said nerfing, or any card released after those cards rotated into Wild (in cases like Barnes where the nerf happened post-rotation), and frankly, Wild is not a game mode with a big enough player based to implement those kinds of systems.
I understand what you guys are saying, and though I haven't checked your 'Cursed problems in game design' XanKortal; {I will look at it when I get up in the morning} I still feel that Wild is no longer as enjoyable as it was. What I think I'm meaning is that: The game runs on a yearly cycle; Kobolds and Catacombs was released as the last expansion and the most powerful expansion in a certain 'Year of the "aspect"' cycle, and although Standard cards are less synergistic at this time, by the end of the year the most powerful cards may well rival those that have come before. This is an example of a good power thresh-hold and viable cyclic game design. I do not understand however the need to nerf cards like Wild Growth and Execute. I see these as cards designed for a certain purpose and to maintain a certain aspect of a class's archetype. Though these archetypes may change over time, Wild should surely be a system that allows deck-building throughout these archetypes. If they are unsuitable for Standard, then they should be removed from Standard; simple as that. I even argue that {and I'm aware that this will be an unpopular opinion} Stealer of Souls should be allowed in Wild; as though it creates a very one-sided game; it should be allowed to be a dominant archetype in a system that is not designed to be balanced until there is another card that overpowers it. Those that wish to get Legend would play Stealer of Souls until that mark, then play whatever they wished after. Classic is a format I do not like: I can see Blizzard releasing expansions to Classic; re-releasing Naxxramas for instance, and simply creating a system where interested players merely re-buy the game again to experience nostalgia.
I say allow nostalgia naturally: If I wish to play an Old-Gods C'ThunN,Zoth, The Corruptor Druid deck; I should be able to play it with Wild Growth at 2 mana and Nourish at 5-mana.
I agree to unnerf some of the cards but definately not all of them. We dont need naga sea witch again. It broke the game completely when everyone can play a full board of giants by turn 5 or 6
The claim that standard decks are more powerful then wild decks disqualified your oppinion. The best decks in the entire game are wild decks. Yeah you can win games in wild with a standard deck -why not? But the powerlevel of something like darkglare is way above standard. Unnerfs sure but not witch.
Your fundamental assertion is simply untrue: Wild is not broken. Period. It's in a much better place than Standard is (and I'll even acknowledge that Standard is in pretty decent shape right now). There are multiple powerful decks that (if you know what you're doing) you can ladder with. Every single class has at least a couple viable decks.
And if you think current Wild decks are weaker than their Standard counterparts, I just don't know what to tell you. You're just dead wrong.
Wild was originally billed as a place where people could continue to play the cards and decks that no longer existed in Standard. While I'm in no position to judge the Wild meta, I have to agree that there is a problem from the "keeping old decks alive" perspective.
However, instead of changing a format a lot of people are enjoying at the moment, maybe it would be better to add a new format: Time Machine. In that format, you choose an expansion Year (Mammoth, Dragon, etc.) for your deck, you can include only the cards that were available during that Year, and you'd be matched with players of the same Year. (The period before Standard existed would include everything up to League of Explorers, and I'm sure someone would come up with a good name for it.)
This would be an extension of the Classic idea, but I don't think it would need to keep separate versions of all the cards. There would need to be a bit of a compromise where Time Machine players would have to accept that their cards would be subject to the same nerfs as Wild.
I realize that the queue times for such a format would be significantly longer, which brings up the question: What are queue times like in Classic now that the initial burst of interest has subsided? I wouldn't think Time Machine queues would be a whole lot longer than that.
I didn’t know wild was broken? I play only solid gold tier 1 decks in wild so I have no issues obtaining d5 rather quickly only completing quests. I even get the random legend by only doing quests as well. You can most certainly play any deck you want in wild because , frankly, it’s wild where all cards are allowed. I don’t think you have a problem playing the deck you want I think the problem is you can’t win with the decks your collection allows you to play. I think you should craft or buy packs for the cards you need to be successful. I play wild 90% of the time because standard is a bore. Learn how to play the secret mage mirror match and obtain d5 in a couple hours or legend even. It’s really not that that hard. The game has evolved as it has to so that people keep playing it. Go play classic mode and see how bored you get after 30 minutes. Classic was great 7 years ago but nobody would be playing Hearthstone today if the game was still like that.. CCG are by nature a set of random if-then , and -or and if and only if logical constraints that will eventually break themselves over time. Either adapt and keep up with the game or be bored. Don’t think blizzard is going to change anything for you. You need to ask yourself why you play the game and if your answer doesn’t fall in line with the current state of the product you need to find something that does to maximize your enjoyment.
People playing wild are already doing so because they like the mulligan heavy, race to win condition gameplay. If people there dig it, then nerfs aren't going to please them. IMO the format has been broken for years but there was time when it was the peak mode in the game, it just didn't last.
However, instead of changing a format a lot of people are enjoying at the moment, maybe it would be better to add a new format: Time Machine. In that format, you choose an expansion Year (Mammoth, Dragon, etc.) for your deck, you can include only the cards that were available during that Year, and you'd be matched with players of the same Year. (The period before Standard existed would include everything up to League of Explorers, and I'm sure someone would come up with a good name for it.)
I love the idea but in order to broaden the appeal I would amend it slightly to allow cards from the current rotation as well.
Thanks for the discussion ladies and gents. I appreciate the passion that people have for the game right now and acknowledge that forward is a better direction to go than backwards. I like the idea of a time-machine; it'd be like the item and stage settings of Super Smash Brothers I imagine. I'll look into modifying my decks to encompass the newer cards and playstyles. I look forward to seeing you all on ladder. Here's to the next expansion and a continually healthy meta! x
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Hi all,
I've been looking at all the card changes over time [Card changes - Hearthstone Wiki (fandom.com)], and I figure that in order to save Wild the devs should revert back to Patch 2.7.0.9166(2015-6-15).
This was the patch before they destroyed Warsong Commander and in my opinion most nerfs afterwards have killed the game.
The Patch after this changes:
Ancient of Lore, Force of Nature, Keeper of the Grove, Ironbeak Owl, Big Game Hunter, Hunter's Mark, Blade Flurry, Knife Juggler, Leper Gnome, Arcane Golem, Molten Giant and Master of Disguise.
At this point in time my main gripe with wild is in the inability to play decks I used to enjoy playing. I realise that everyone will have their favourite classes and cards: be it 1-mana Execute, 2-mana Equality, 2-mana Flametongue Totem, 0-mana Hunter's Mark, 1-mana Mana Wyrm, original Shadowboxer, original Dreadsteed, original Preparation or 2-mana Wild Growth. Notable Neutral cards would be: 5-mana Giggling Inventor, 4-mana Barnes, and 5-mana Naga Sea Witch.
Wild as a concept is supposed to be broken, and I am glad that there are only a handful of top-tier decks. However it is no longer possible to enjoy all of wild which is unfair. Why Fix The Caverns Below or Yogg-Saron, Hope's End, for example, when other classes can no longer compete as their core cards are now totally unplayable? As a Wild player, I don't mind losing to better decks, but I do mind not being able to play my favourite decks of the past!
A note on why Patch 2.7.0.9166(2015-6-15):
In my opinion: Patron Warrior was a powerful deck that required a high skill level to play; and I therefore see it as fair deck. Before this patch; Leeroy Jenkins cost 4-mana, Gadgetzan Auctioneer cost 5-mana, Soulfire cost 0-mana etc., and I think that most of these nerfs were also fair.
A Sidenote on the Demon Hunter class: As Demon Dunter was added later, I would keep all Demon Hunter nerfs in place.
To be clear: Hearthstone is now a game where Wild cards have become less powerful and Standard cards continue to raise their power level. This means that most Wild decks after Patch_2.7.0.9166 are worse than their Standard counterparts, and therefore; the way things are, Wild mode is almost pointless.
It is a shell of what it was. Please Blizzard, let me play my old decks again: I don't want to win, I want to have fun!
Best Regards,
A fan.
Power creep: That is the issue you are describing, as new cards roll out sometimes new archetypes are created and old ones are not viable.
Nerfs: Good idea to revert old nerfs after the sets rotate out of standard. Dreadsteed for example, as long as they aren't game breaking (stealer of souls for example)
This is just not true. There is a power creep for sure. But in standard there are far less synergy cards than in wild. So wild decks are a LOT more powerful and consistent than standard ones.
Personally I wouldnt mind some more unnerfs like Execute or Flametongue Totem. Actually I demand a Dreadsteed unnerf! But some of the nerfed cards should stay as they are now in my opinion like Shadowboxer or Barnes.
You say that you are a wild player and "wild mode is almost pointless". I dont think you get what wild mode is all about.
Hrmmmm... no.
The problem is you've presented two contradictory desires. There was a GDC talk about this called 'Cursed Problems in Game Design' where one or more promises made to players are not being met because your other promises to players contradict that promise.
So, here's the problem:
Does not align with this:
Because many of those cards were never in standard decks, or continued to be used post nerf, meaning different decks used the card for different purposes.
For example, reverting Execute to 1 mana allows Classic decks to be rebuilt in Wild, but now Even Warrior decks (yes, they were a thing, even reaching rank 39 legend) can't use the card.
Or using the Dreadsteed example - Dreadsteed + Defile was never a combo in Standard or Wild specifically because it was nerfed before Defile even entered the game.
Unnerfing any of these examples will not fix Wild because it would only break your own expectations in other ways - and not because of overall power, but because your expectation doesn't fit with the current rules of the format.
If you want to unnerf any of the quoted cards, you'd also need to implement a system where including the unnerfed versions of said cards also bans any cards that were released after said nerfing, or any card released after those cards rotated into Wild (in cases like Barnes where the nerf happened post-rotation), and frankly, Wild is not a game mode with a big enough player based to implement those kinds of systems.
Classic already exists for this exact fantasy.
I understand what you guys are saying, and though I haven't checked your 'Cursed problems in game design' XanKortal; {I will look at it when I get up in the morning} I still feel that Wild is no longer as enjoyable as it was.
What I think I'm meaning is that: The game runs on a yearly cycle; Kobolds and Catacombs was released as the last expansion and the most powerful expansion in a certain 'Year of the "aspect"' cycle, and although Standard cards are less synergistic at this time, by the end of the year the most powerful cards may well rival those that have come before. This is an example of a good power thresh-hold and viable cyclic game design.
I do not understand however the need to nerf cards like Wild Growth and Execute. I see these as cards designed for a certain purpose and to maintain a certain aspect of a class's archetype. Though these archetypes may change over time, Wild should surely be a system that allows deck-building throughout these archetypes. If they are unsuitable for Standard, then they should be removed from Standard; simple as that.
I even argue that {and I'm aware that this will be an unpopular opinion} Stealer of Souls should be allowed in Wild; as though it creates a very one-sided game; it should be allowed to be a dominant archetype in a system that is not designed to be balanced until there is another card that overpowers it. Those that wish to get Legend would play Stealer of Souls until that mark, then play whatever they wished after.
Classic is a format I do not like: I can see Blizzard releasing expansions to Classic; re-releasing Naxxramas for instance, and simply creating a system where interested players merely re-buy the game again to experience nostalgia.
I say allow nostalgia naturally: If I wish to play an Old-Gods C'Thun N,Zoth, The Corruptor Druid deck; I should be able to play it with Wild Growth at 2 mana and Nourish at 5-mana.
I agree to unnerf some of the cards but definately not all of them. We dont need naga sea witch again. It broke the game completely when everyone can play a full board of giants by turn 5 or 6
The claim that standard decks are more powerful then wild decks disqualified your oppinion. The best decks in the entire game are wild decks. Yeah you can win games in wild with a standard deck -why not? But the powerlevel of something like darkglare is way above standard. Unnerfs sure but not witch.
remove the resurected minions from the pool. Stop printing op mage secrets. That would fix a lot of things
Wild isn't broken...jeez just leave us Wild players alone, dont want another standard snoozefest thanks.
Your fundamental assertion is simply untrue: Wild is not broken. Period. It's in a much better place than Standard is (and I'll even acknowledge that Standard is in pretty decent shape right now). There are multiple powerful decks that (if you know what you're doing) you can ladder with. Every single class has at least a couple viable decks.
And if you think current Wild decks are weaker than their Standard counterparts, I just don't know what to tell you. You're just dead wrong.
Just making rotation of addons like on arena.
You apparently don’t understand why wild is what it is .that’s where all busted op cards go.
Wild was originally billed as a place where people could continue to play the cards and decks that no longer existed in Standard. While I'm in no position to judge the Wild meta, I have to agree that there is a problem from the "keeping old decks alive" perspective.
However, instead of changing a format a lot of people are enjoying at the moment, maybe it would be better to add a new format: Time Machine. In that format, you choose an expansion Year (Mammoth, Dragon, etc.) for your deck, you can include only the cards that were available during that Year, and you'd be matched with players of the same Year. (The period before Standard existed would include everything up to League of Explorers, and I'm sure someone would come up with a good name for it.)
This would be an extension of the Classic idea, but I don't think it would need to keep separate versions of all the cards. There would need to be a bit of a compromise where Time Machine players would have to accept that their cards would be subject to the same nerfs as Wild.
I realize that the queue times for such a format would be significantly longer, which brings up the question: What are queue times like in Classic now that the initial burst of interest has subsided? I wouldn't think Time Machine queues would be a whole lot longer than that.
"Why, you never expected justice from a company, did you? They have neither a soul to lose nor a body to kick." -- Lady Saba Holland
I didn’t know wild was broken? I play only solid gold tier 1 decks in wild so I have no issues obtaining d5 rather quickly only completing quests. I even get the random legend by only doing quests as well. You can most certainly play any deck you want in wild because , frankly, it’s wild where all cards are allowed. I don’t think you have a problem playing the deck you want I think the problem is you can’t win with the decks your collection allows you to play. I think you should craft or buy packs for the cards you need to be successful. I play wild 90% of the time because standard is a bore. Learn how to play the secret mage mirror match and obtain d5 in a couple hours or legend even. It’s really not that that hard. The game has evolved as it has to so that people keep playing it. Go play classic mode and see how bored you get after 30 minutes. Classic was great 7 years ago but nobody would be playing Hearthstone today if the game was still like that.. CCG are by nature a set of random if-then , and -or and if and only if logical constraints that will eventually break themselves over time. Either adapt and keep up with the game or be bored. Don’t think blizzard is going to change anything for you. You need to ask yourself why you play the game and if your answer doesn’t fall in line with the current state of the product you need to find something that does to maximize your enjoyment.
People playing wild are already doing so because they like the mulligan heavy, race to win condition gameplay. If people there dig it, then nerfs aren't going to please them. IMO the format has been broken for years but there was time when it was the peak mode in the game, it just didn't last.
I love the idea but in order to broaden the appeal I would amend it slightly to allow cards from the current rotation as well.
Thanks for the discussion ladies and gents. I appreciate the passion that people have for the game right now and acknowledge that forward is a better direction to go than backwards. I like the idea of a time-machine; it'd be like the item and stage settings of Super Smash Brothers I imagine.
I'll look into modifying my decks to encompass the newer cards and playstyles. I look forward to seeing you all on ladder.
Here's to the next expansion and a continually healthy meta!
x