Hearthpwn

Quote from RendInFriend >>

No other class has been nerfed as much as priest. Priest is my favorite class, but blizz should just delete them. Players cried when there was a strong win condition, so they got rid of Raza. Then they cried about combo, so no more face damage with mind blast. Then they cried about Reno effects, so Velen got removed. Then they cried about resurrect spells, which were viable win conditions, so no more rez. Now they are crying because games take too long after nerfing or rotating every single win condition priest has ever had. This is getting ridiculous, especially as the healing, silence and removal portions of class identity get carved up to other classes. At this point, warlock and demon hunter look more like classic control priest decks than priest does now.

 I honestly think they wanted to nerf the class anyway to force people into the shadow priest wincon that’s coming next expansion. I don’t think the complaining alone is why all these cards got nerfed. People complain about lots of cards but Blizzard stands firm on not nerfing quite a few of them, like Tickatus. I think Blizzard finally realized that they painted themselves into a corner with priest & the discover shenanigans, so they finally had to act. The problem was likely to only get worse, seeing as we’re only in the first expansion of a new cycle & the discover was already out of control. Be thankful that palm reading wasn’t touched, because that card will almost certainly become an issue at some point down the line.

Quote from Finalstan >>

I think something else is going on with Priest. Vicious Syndicate noticed that there was not a high but significant proportion of players insta-conceding to Priests. This is because you are guaranteed to have 15-20 minute matches with them, which are not fun to the opponent, and players think they can use their time better queueing up to someone else. And insta-concede is probably not what Blizzard wants players to do. It needs to address the class, of course, it's their fault things are the way they are, but nerfing now will a) increase the enjoyment of the game for non-Priest players and b) make room for a new archetype in the new expansion. 

And the nerfed cards are still perfectly playable, just not 10+ times in a single game anymore.

 I legit insta concede when i see a priest. I can play 2 maybe 3 matches depending on how fast games go against other classes. I'm just not willing to play a already lost game 15-20 min. I'm not mad against control warlock, at least I know what they are bringing. Priest is waaaay too annoying with random generation plus those big samuro heals.  I once played vs one who played 7 hysterias from random generation, that wasn't fun at all.

It's probably to make space for the new expansion. 

They might have found obscene interactions

" I honestly think they wanted to nerf the class anyway to force people into the shadow priest wincon that’s coming next expansion. "

And if shadow priest is working well and all the adhs facerushers lose against them, they whine and.... priest gets nerfed.

Let me try to clarify the whole Priest situation:

1) Pre-nerf control Priest was probably the best deck in the game. This can be evidenced by the deck's win rate at high MMR brackets. If players at silver/gold don't know how to play the deck and score ~40% is not the deck's problem but the pilot's. The deck itself was really strong.
2) The nerfs (and even more the multiple calls for nerfs) probably had little to do with the power level of the deck and a lot more with the gameplay experience it created
3) Here is what happened in the last game I played vs Priest (I was playing Shaman): I developed an early board, I made sure to clear every single minion the Priest dropped, even if the trade seemed sub-optimal (as Apotheosis is a card), I didn't dare develop too wide (as Samuro+Apotheosis is a combo) and I was slowly pushing face damage at the same time. My opponent managed to partly/fully clear my board 5(!) times by casting a Devouring Plague, while also healing for a total of 20. Fun fact: Devouring Plague was not a card they were running in their deck, yet they managed to generate and cast 5(!) copies of it in the same game. Later they also generated some random Desperate Prayer & Flash Heal for more healing as well as another board clear with Xyrella. So far they have healed for a total of 30 purely via 'created by' spells. Meanwhile I have already killed 4(!) Venomous Scorpids that they have dropped. In the end I managed to sneak in some exact lethal and win the game after around 15 turns and 15-20 minutes of play. Despite winning, this was by far the least fun game I had that whole day. Not because of the duration (I have no problem with long games), but because of the infinite random, created by answers that one can't legitimately play around. If the nerf to Renew puts an end to this kind of gameplay experience then I'm very happy to see it nerfed.
4) Regarding the OP's comments. Illidari Inquisitor might be a bit overtuned, but it is still an 8-mana card and it is the only thing that DH has going right now. Nerf it and the class is as good as dead. Warsong Wrangler is very fine, I don't see why it would need a nerf. As for Shaman, I don't feel that the class is OP, sure Elemental/Doom Shaman is strong but not stronger than Rush Warrior or Miracle Rogue or pre-nerf Paladin (who IMO was also not OP, but that's another story). However I do think some buff reverts (like Lilipad Lurker) would be fair. 

They need to give Priest more choices because fundamentally that is the issue. I can totally see why anybody maining Priests would be p*****d at the nerfs as it weakens their class. But they have to understand that for the opponent this kind of playstyle kills the fun and that is the last thing any game creator wants their game to be. And I also don't mind 20 minute games, as long as there is interaction and wins/losses feel earned/deserved.

For the record, I am not a fan of aggro meta and I don't play aggro decks, unless I need a little change and climb the ladder a bit. I didn't have an issue with previous iterations of Priest. It needs a win con to actively pursue other than fatigue, though. Shadow Priest might be it but the problem with that is there will be a limited number of cards printed and I just don't know if that will be enough to launch an archetype. We will see, I hope it does.

Quote from Finalstan >>

I think something else is going on with Priest. Vicious Syndicate noticed that there was not a high but significant proportion of players insta-conceding to Priests. This is because you are guaranteed to have 15-20 minute matches with them, which are not fun to the opponent, and players think they can use their time better queueing up to someone else. And insta-concede is probably not what Blizzard wants players to do. It needs to address the class, of course, it's their fault things are the way they are, but nerfing now will a) increase the enjoyment of the game for non-Priest players and b) make room for a new archetype in the new expansion. 

And the nerfed cards are still perfectly playable, just not 10+ times in a single game anymore.

 That's interesting. It's the reason why I would remove Tickatus from the game, not because he's OP but because he's the opposite of fun (if you're an half-decent human being, that is). I'd be curious to know how many players insta-concede when Tick is played.

1) Sure priest control decks are possibly one of the best, but they've also invariably been one of the hardest class to play in the game since the beginning. Higher difficulty should be rewarded with higher potential. Sure there is substantial card generation, but that comes with the challenge of predicting your opponents next move and curating the right cards from the 3 discover options we are given. It adds a fun element of strategy. Why should Priest players be punished because salty predictable aggro decks are complaining that they cant face down their opponent in <5 minutes? Personally I enjoy the deliberation that comes with the game. 

2) You literally just said in point 1 it is powerful? I assume the 'gameplay experience it created' translates to impatient players waiting >5 seconds per turn & >10 minutes per game just because a priest deck actually requires decision-making and sound judgement and thus may take a littler longer. 

3) That's very unfortunate. Devouring Plague is very RNG based. Also the fact they discovered it 5 or even 3 times is even more astonishing. But luck is part of the game. Being given the right pool of options comes down to chance just as much as drawing the right cards from your original deck. Trust me, as a Priest I've had some absolute atrocious discover options and it's costed the game on many occasions. It goes both ways.

4) Agree with Illidari Inquisitor 

Quote from Daniel327 >>

The post by Blizzard clearly states why the cards were nerfed. The meta is very balanced right now, but the playstyle of certain decks is not generally fun to play against. Sorry if you like playing 15-20 minute games back to back to back, but not everyone does. And that isn't a bad thing or a reason to insult someone. Clearly, Blizzard wanted to fix this in preparation for the upcoming expansion and also to stop the significant amount of Turn-1 concedes against priest. This was happening in winnable matchups, seemingly because players did not want to even participate against the class. If they can do something to stop people from not playing their game, that's a good thing.

 For me it's absolutely no fun to lose in 2 minutes against aggro decks. So when does Blizzard something about that? The answer is never. I will never ever understand, why Aggro is ok and Control is bad. Just balance the fucking game, make good cards for every playstyle and let people decide, what they want to play. 

Well with 0 cost renew there isnt much to predict, you just discover on demand.

Games against priest take that long not because of decision making but because of the gameplan. They try to run you into fatigue, thats the win condition. 

5 times the same card is common against priest. 5 times Scorpion, sethek, renew, soul mirror is every second game. Hack I even had 5 Kargath Prime played against me.

Btw I play mostly control style decks and even I felt like (never did) I should instant concede. Just because the time Investment isnt worth it. Its even longer for me 30+ min games aint rare.

Also its not rly about decision making in a control vs priest matchup. I can play as smart as I want, if he discovers an answer to everything, it dosnt matter in the end.

I dont even play around hysteria  anymore, it's better to gamble. 

It's actually funny how many people complain about priest decks all the time and how much people complain about card generation in priest. I have started to climb standard (aka noob format; yeah, I said it) with achievement decks and added all kinds of discover, add, and random options to these decks to discover, add, and random into some achievement cards I still don't own and you wouldn't believe how many classes can easily generate 10+ cards per game. And yes, you can actually play and win a lot with decks like random spell generator shaman, sigil/ctrl random spell generator dh, etc. People are just too dumb and uninspired to build this kind of stuff and rather craft dumb legendaries to build unfun stupid allegedly tier 1 hunter and shaman aggro crap.

You know what deck was the most fun to play? Shroud of Concealment - Battlecry/Combo low cost minions rogue. That deck drew me like 10 cards on turn 4, while discovering 5 more and people are freaking sleeping on it. And since no card in that deck costs more than 3 mana, I completely thrash every single aggro list in the meta.

All that being said, Apotheosis is dead, so we are in desperate need for healing/armor/anti-aggro tools that actually work.

15-20 min games are hard or you can't stand them? I have news for you. That is not the ctrl player's problem. You simply lack the skill and attention span. Also, it's a freaking game! Also, priest is non-interactive? Hunter is non-interactive, otk mozaki mage in wild is non-interactive. Ctrl priest is among the most interactive decks in the entire game, especially the nzoth variant, but you can't experience that if you t1 concede when you see a priest. I have tested a lot of priest in legend ranks and I can tell you that the class is nowhere near as good as people pretend it to be, even if you know what you are doing.

Also, Inquisitor is fine? It's insanely overpowered, even for its mana cost. It's yet another card that counters one of the aggro counterplay options (taunt) way too efficiently and is a must-kill minion. Inquisitor is the only thing dh has going for it? Ever heard of deathrattle, OTK, or a combination of both? These decks don't really need it and if you were a bit more creative, you would have noticed by now that sigils/random spell generation and cthun dh are actually strong decks that will easily get you to legend because opponents don't understand your deck cAuSe iTs nOt tIeR 1!!1!!!!!1!!

This thread is showing how the social media world has shrunk attenttion spans to the size of a pea! Listen to these kids whine about speding 15 minutes thinking about a game they are playing!  Just amazing and doestn bode well for our collective futures.

Thank you for this comment. This is like people complaining about getting to legend being too easy. What the heck?

These nerfs do wonders for Hunter. I could not be happier! 

Quote from D_Lord >>

It's actually funny how many people complain about priest decks all the time and how much people complain about card generation in priest. I have started to climb standard (aka noob format; yeah, I said it) with achievement decks and added all kinds of discover, add, and random options to these decks to discover, add, and random into some achievement cards I still don't own and you wouldn't believe how many classes can easily generate 10+ cards per game. And yes, you can actually play and win a lot with decks like random spell generator shaman, sigil/ctrl random spell generator dh, etc. People are just too dumb and uninspired to build this kind of stuff and rather craft dumb legendaries to build unfun stupid allegedly tier 1 hunter and shaman aggro crap.

You know what deck was the most fun to play? Shroud of Concealment - Battlecry/Combo low cost minions rogue. That deck drew me like 10 cards on turn 4, while discovering 5 more and people are freaking sleeping on it. And since no card in that deck costs more than 3 mana, I completely thrash every single aggro list in the meta.

All that being said, Apotheosis is dead, so we are in desperate need for healing/armor/anti-aggro tools that actually work.

15-20 min games are hard or you can't stand them? I have news for you. That is not the ctrl player's problem. You simply lack the skill and attention span. Also, it's a freaking game! Also, priest is non-interactive? Hunter is non-interactive, otk mozaki mage in wild is non-interactive. Ctrl priest is among the most interactive decks in the entire game, especially the nzoth variant, but you can't experience that if you t1 concede when you see a priest. I have tested a lot of priest in legend ranks and I can tell you that the class is nowhere near as good as people pretend it to be, even if you know what you are doing.

Also, Inquisitor is fine? It's insanely overpowered, even for its mana cost. It's yet another card that counters one of the aggro counterplay options (taunt) way too efficiently and is a must-kill minion. Inquisitor is the only thing dh has going for it? Ever heard of deathrattle, OTK, or a combination of both? These decks don't really need it and if you were a bit more creative, you would have noticed by now that sigils/random spell generation and cthun dh are actually strong decks that will easily get you to legend because opponents don't understand your deck cAuSe iTs nOt tIeR 1!!1!!!!!1!!

This thread is showing how the social media world has shrunk attenttion spans to the size of a pea! Listen to these kids whine about speding 15 minutes thinking about a game they are playing!  Just amazing and doestn bode well for our collective futures.

Thank you for this comment. This is like people complaining about getting to legend being too easy. What the heck?

 What’s that shroud of concealment deck you mentioned? I’d love to try it out.

I remember when the whole core set change was about to happen, people were like, "man, why is Blizzard taking away so many of the direct damage spells?" --- "it must be to make the game less aggro and facey!"

And then they released a bunch of new ways to burst face.

We're upon an expansion and they think priest has too much generation and burst healing. So, they're just not going to print anymore healing or discover cards in the next expansion, right? Not likely.

But if they do decide to actually tone down both of these things in priest, then we need to think what they will add more of? It's either going to be better minions, some face damage spell or something else entirely.

Let's see what happens when the card reveals start rolling. :)

Blizzard just can't figure out what to do with Priest in Standard. They say the class fantasy revolves around healing and single minion buffs, then nerf the two most popular cards that engage in this "fantasy" (their words). Is it annoying to play against a priest who can chain discover Renew->Raise Dead->Wand Maker->Renew? Yeah, sure, but what do they expect when they give a class no natural win conditions beyond extending the game and generating resources to heal itself? Every other class is given efficient ways to try to kill the opponent, but all Priest has is stall/control tools. 

And it's been said before, but the chief problem isn't that Priest has card generation, it's that discover is a broken mechanic. Always has been and never more so than right after rotation. They should have left it with Un'Goro and not made it a perpetual design crutch.

Mediocre Priest-Only Player since 2014 (never Legend, mostly around Gold/Diamond) I just can confirm that the class is now for the first time unplayable for me. I struggled going Gold when the nerf came and now it is strictly impossible to win for me, even in Silver. By the way at this level there are almost no auto-concedes against Priest.

So I think it was nerfed regarding higher levels, but at mine Priest wasn't played often before and I think it will almost disappear now.

Weirdly enough I prefer playing against a rando-priest than say, the big/rez priests of the past... Now they felt like cheating. Never again do I want to face a wave of early mana cheated late game drops being rezzed over and over and over...

And I've always said win-ratio-balance is a stupid way of looking at the game - tossing a coin is perfectly balanced 50/50...it doesn't mean it is any fun. This is why power levels need to remain in check, and events need to unfold over the course of the game with players reacting to changing states, not just be a race to a decks win condition, where mulligan trumps everything (Hi Wild). Having some classes be stronger than others at different times is fine, what matters is gameplay.

Quote from Shed >>

There is a big difference between playing a 20 minute match against most control decks out there and playing against this season Priest, the deck is garbage fire and does very few interactive plays and rely on card generation to win and that you would win anyway.

There was a very similar deck a long time ago with Lyra, where you would win with sheer card generation to everwhelm your opponent, and this deck was actually good and didn't piss off anybody, because it played like a normal control deck with plenty of interaction, had alternative wincons and all their bullshit happened really quickly in a single combo turn with Lyra and Radiant Elementals.

I couldn't agree more. I love Priest and I love control decks but the discover and random generation has gotten out of hand. The best control decks should have to manage their resources carefully - e.g. Big Spell Mage or Control Warrior back in the day - meaning the opponent could play round removal or swing turns. Long games felt OK because you knew they had limited resources and could figure out a winning strategy.

It is impossible to play round Priest removal now as they generate so many additional resources and have a ridiculous amount of heal. Feeling utterly powerless against Priest is literally the worst feeling and, as someone else pointed out, results in insta-concedes which sucks for Blizz. 

These are good nerfs.

Quote from brother >>

Quote from D_Lord >>

It's actually funny how many people complain about priest decks all the time and how much people complain about card generation in priest. I have started to climb standard (aka noob format; yeah, I said it) with achievement decks and added all kinds of discover, add, and random options to these decks to discover, add, and random into some achievement cards I still don't own and you wouldn't believe how many classes can easily generate 10+ cards per game. And yes, you can actually play and win a lot with decks like random spell generator shaman, sigil/ctrl random spell generator dh, etc. People are just too dumb and uninspired to build this kind of stuff and rather craft dumb legendaries to build unfun stupid allegedly tier 1 hunter and shaman aggro crap.

You know what deck was the most fun to play? Shroud of Concealment - Battlecry/Combo low cost minions rogue. That deck drew me like 10 cards on turn 4, while discovering 5 more and people are freaking sleeping on it. And since no card in that deck costs more than 3 mana, I completely thrash every single aggro list in the meta.

All that being said, Apotheosis is dead, so we are in desperate need for healing/armor/anti-aggro tools that actually work.

15-20 min games are hard or you can't stand them? I have news for you. That is not the ctrl player's problem. You simply lack the skill and attention span. Also, it's a freaking game! Also, priest is non-interactive? Hunter is non-interactive, otk mozaki mage in wild is non-interactive. Ctrl priest is among the most interactive decks in the entire game, especially the nzoth variant, but you can't experience that if you t1 concede when you see a priest. I have tested a lot of priest in legend ranks and I can tell you that the class is nowhere near as good as people pretend it to be, even if you know what you are doing.

Also, Inquisitor is fine? It's insanely overpowered, even for its mana cost. It's yet another card that counters one of the aggro counterplay options (taunt) way too efficiently and is a must-kill minion. Inquisitor is the only thing dh has going for it? Ever heard of deathrattle, OTK, or a combination of both? These decks don't really need it and if you were a bit more creative, you would have noticed by now that sigils/random spell generation and cthun dh are actually strong decks that will easily get you to legend because opponents don't understand your deck cAuSe iTs nOt tIeR 1!!1!!!!!1!!

This thread is showing how the social media world has shrunk attenttion spans to the size of a pea! Listen to these kids whine about speding 15 minutes thinking about a game they are playing!  Just amazing and doestn bode well for our collective futures.

Thank you for this comment. This is like people complaining about getting to legend being too easy. What the heck?

 What’s that shroud of concealment deck you mentioned? I’d love to try it out.

# Class: Rogue
# Format: Standard
# Year of the Gryphon
#
# 2x (0) Shadowstep
# 2x (1) Wand Thief
# 2x (1) Swashburglar
# 2x (1) Prize Plunderer
# 2x (1) Guardian Augmerchant
# 2x (1) Brain Freeze
# 2x (2) Wicked Stab (Rank 1)
# 2x (2) Wandmaker
# 1x (2) Vanessa VanCleef
# 1x (2) Tenwu of the Red Smoke
# 2x (2) Swindle
# 2x (2) Foxy Fraud
# 2x (2) Efficient Octo-bot
# 2x (3) Venomous Scorpid
# 2x (3) Shroud of Concealment
# 2x (3) Field Contact
#
AAECAd75AwLD4QOX5wMO3r4Dx84DpNED/tED390D590D890DlugDqOsDqusDq+sD/u4D9p8E7qAEAA==
# To use this deck, copy it to your clipboard and create a new deck in Hearthstone
# Find this deck on https://hsreplay.net/replay/dNqWv8RhvH4ys3CGbMRTLA

It's worth mentioning that I also tried hard to get Yoinks from Wandmaker (spoiler: this is a bad strategy for this deck because of the mini-set rogue spell) and Scorpid, so this could probably still be improved (my first idea was 2x Preparation for full cost reduction, but maybe Kazakus + 1 Backstab to trigger Octobot, or even Brooms). Swashburglar has also not quite overperformed for me so far, but it's a cheap flexible card for Shroud. Win conditions like Alex are overrated, btw^^. I should add that this deck didn't go very well against bigger decks like Druid and Mage, which is what I have seen quite a lot of. Shaman and Hunter are rather easy to beat, though. Get the board, keep the board, create tons of value, Wicked Stab Wicked Stab (+ the Fireball or WIcked Stab you randomly created)

Quite ironic that I post this random card generation and draw machine in a thread about priest card generation balance.

My prediction for the new priest direction is the shadow theme and, aside from some overcosted burn spells that will still see some play because of the hero power change, there will be sacrifice abilities or some very annoying disruption tools (Illucia says hi!). And people will obviously complain about that at some point because burst and disruption is unfun. Just as unfun as a certain 8/8 that bursts and has not a lot of good counterplay from the dh class.^^

Quote from Addy87 >>

I don't mind a 15-20 minute game but when it's all abt discover , tonnes of card generation, slow plays...it gets so tiring to just sit and watch them as opponents..priest is worst kind of control

 Well here is the problem.They didnt really go after the card generation. They chose to nerf Priests healing instead. I guess a dead priest cant discover more cards, still a terrible way to address the problem. Only thing the patch did was make Priest weaker against aggro and almost the same vs control.