First of all I do think the game is fairly balanced, probably it doesn't even need any nerfs. My suggestions would be more to tone down the powercreeping and some of the more frustrating cards (Tickatus, Incanter's on 2). Well that and change my personal gripes.
So you know where my bias is at, I mostly play midrange/control (variations of N'Zoth and Y'Shaarj decks) and amt I hate facing priest and OTK DH. Any feedback is appreciated.
- Warsong Wrangler - give all copies +1/+1
- Piercing Shot - can't target friendly minions
- Il'Gynoth - deal damage to enemy hero equal to health restored through lifesteal (can't damage when full HP, this change would kill the OTK deck making the card a midrange/tempo option instead, similar to E.T.C.)
- Illidari Inquisitor - 7/8
- Incanter's Flow - reduce the cost of arcane spells in your deck by 1. Add a random arcane spell to your hand
- Renew - 2-mana
- Raise Dead - 1-mana (maybe not a good idea since it would replace Renew in Wandmaker)
- Apotheosis - +1/+3 (too strong with Samuro)
- Tickatus - destroy 4 cards
- Clown - corrupted form summons 4 copies of it instead of 6
- N'Zoth - 10-mana (old gods shouldn't cost less than 10!)
I mostly agree with your changes. It feels that some cards are not only very powerful for their cost, but also are mandatory to be included no matter your deck strategy. For example, Illadari Inquisitor is in ALL my DH' decks (and I run 75% of meme decks) Without it, I've noticed that DH struggle a lot to compete.
I wish they would go back to vanilla 3/4 mana for 3 mana, vanilla 5/6 for 5 mana, and vanilla 8/8 for 8 mana, being "boundaries" for card design (including class cards). I want to play with deathrattles (DH excepted) and meme cards but they are so understated compared to most played cards it is just not fun.
Yeah, let's kill priest with that ridiculous 47% winrate because that's just too high. Oh, and let's throw in Nzoth and clown because hey, why not. Next thread plz
- Clown - corrupted form summons 4 copies of it instead of 6
It's a 9 mana card which is hard enough to corrupt due to the lack of viable 10 mana plays and how hard it is to actually play them....and you want the corrupt reward to be "gain a single extra 4/4"? No....No....No, No, No, No
Exactly, the idea is to have as few "auto-include" cards as possible. I don't mind some amount of powercreeping (specially for high-cost cards) as long as it's not detrimental to the hero's viability. Some of the cards like the inquisitor are a little over the top when compared to legendaries like king krush, ragnaros or al'akir, and can be played 3 times in a game with N'Zoth. I was going to include lillypad lurker in the list since I don't think it needed a buff in the first place, but then I gave it a second thought and removed because classes need to do bonkers stuff for the game to be fun. As I said, I don't think the game is unbalanced, my suggestions are just here to bring classes WR closer to 50% while trying to keep the game enjoyable for everyone.
It was meant to summon 2 extra clowns (5 total) but yeah that's probably an unnecessary nerf. It's just that I feel most classes are just helpless against a board full of 8/8 or 12/12 taunts from clown druid.
It was meant to summon 2 extra clowns (5 total) but yeah that's probably an unnecessary nerf. It's just that I feel most classes are just helpless against a board full of 8/8 or 12/12 taunts from clown druid.
In all fairness though, if you're engaged in a match where your opponent is that comfortable with dropping a 10 mana 'do nothing this turn' spell (unless they have minions on board) then you probably don't have the best chances of winning the game anyways.
It was meant to summon 2 extra clowns (5 total) but yeah that's probably an unnecessary nerf. It's just that I feel most classes are just helpless against a board full of 8/8 or 12/12 taunts from clown druid.
In all fairness though, if you're engaged in a match where your opponent is that comfortable with dropping a 10 mana 'do nothing this turn' spell (unless they have minions on board) then you probably don't have the best chances of winning the game anyways.
Well, very frequently survival of the fittest is played on turn 7 or earlier, it can affect your board immediately and be followed by one or two 10/10 strongman. Clown druid is my most played deck this year, it certainly has some bad matchups but if the meta ever slows down it could become somewhat problematic. But all things considered you're probably right.
Yeah, let's kill priest with that ridiculous 47% winrate because that's just too high.
I've heard dumb arguments but this is still pretty up there. Where on earth did you get that laughable 47% wr? No, let me guess (as if it were difficult, there's only one option), the pointless winrates on the front page of hsreplay...got it, eh?
https://www.vicioussyndicate.com/vs-data-reaper-report-200/ here you go. Priest is a tier 3-ish deck at lower levels and spikes up at top 1k legend as the third best deck in the game. Uh. That, by the way, is what useful statistics look like, not a pointless and entirely meaningless 47% on class winrates, which is about as useful as the free stats hsreplay hands out.
I'd also like to point out this tweet https://twitter.com/FledHS/status/1408199626935652354 which was made by a current hearthstone gm and was liked by Iksar himself (which I believe is more of a "we hear you" than anything else but I'm not the man so it's just speculation on my part), which says an awful lot when paired with the data collected by VS which shows that priest wr% goes up by an entire 1% (which is massive, to put it mildly) because of the absurdly high number of turn one concedes, something they've never recorded in any previous report.
And I honestly don't care a lick about priests in standard (or wild, for that matter) but I see this argument thrown time and time again and it's one of the most asinine possible so please, find yourself a better one (and there are, I've read a few myself) and drop this idiotic one.
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Now, as for OP...nope, I don't think any of those nerfs are needed...or any good, really. I wouldn't be surprised to see a smaller round of nerfs coming up at the end of the month or beginning of July but then again, I also wouldn't be surprised if nothing happened. Fairly curious to see if team 5 will actually do something about priest because it seems pretty clear that they will have to at some point, the only thing left to puzzle is when.
sure why not, it's one of the best performing cards (also one of the coolest), and this nerf isn't brutal
- Piercing Shot - can't target friendly minions
No.
- Il'Gynoth - deal damage to enemy hero equal to health restored through lifesteal (can't damage when full HP, this change would kill the OTK deck making the card a midrange/tempo option instead, similar to E.T.C.)
Why would you kill a deck ?
- Illidari Inquisitor - 7/8
Makes virtually no difference, so no. And no to a bigger nerf.
- Incanter's Flow - reduce the cost of arcane spells in your deck by 1. Add a random arcane spell to your hand
Completely changes the effect of the card, won't happen. Nerf to 3 is better, not sure if needed yet, but will be needed at some point.
- Renew - 2-mana
The effect is worth 2 mana, why not, I guess. Not sure it would see any play as a "fair" card.
- Raise Dead - 1-mana (maybe not a good idea since it would replace Renew in Wandmaker)
Wouldn't kill the card, but I can't see a reason to nerf it.
- Apotheosis - +1/+3 (too strong with Samuro)
No.
- Tickatus - destroy 4 cards
Doesn't need a nerf + not a good nerf. If anything they should just remove the corrupt thing a make it a normal battlecry that can't be duplicated by Y'shaarj.
- Clown - corrupted form summons 4 copies of it instead of 6
No.
- N'Zoth - 10-mana (old gods shouldn't cost less than 10!)
People want to call this meta “fair” but i wouldn’t consider more than one class having insane power level cards as real balance. I personally have a huge problem with cards like Illidari Inquisitor and Trampling Rhino which are just big charge minions with extra steps. I mean are the devs against the concept of minions attacking directly to the face the turn they’re played or not? If not, then they need to add better neutral taunt minions for classes than don’t have massive healing or armor. Games against certain classes shouldn’t be a ticking time bomb that squashes you with a single card on turn 5 or 6 imo.
I like your though process, OP. I personally like regular nerfs just because they often shake up the meta and give new decks and cards a chance to shine. It’s a way to make the game feel fresh without introducing any new cards.
Whenever a hunter uses Piercing Shot on one of their own 1/1s, it feels like that wasn’t how the card was supposed to work, but maybe that’s just me.
Yeah, let's kill priest with that ridiculous 47% winrate because that's just too high.
I've heard dumb arguments but this is still pretty up there. Where on earth did you get that laughable 47% wr? No, let me guess (as if it were difficult, there's only one option), the pointless winrates on the front page of hsreplay...got it, eh?
https://www.vicioussyndicate.com/vs-data-reaper-report-200/ here you go. Priest is a tier 3-ish deck at lower levels and spikes up at top 1k legend as the third best deck in the game. Uh. That, by the way, is what useful statistics look like, not a pointless and entirely meaningless 47% on class winrates, which is about as useful as the free stats hsreplay hands out.
Thank you for posting this. I've grown really tired of the "Priest is garbage" argument when that is anything but the case. When played correctly (key word there) the deck is absolutely dominant; however, many people in lower ranks don't have the knowledge or patience to do this which leads to the terrible win% on HS Replay.
Now, as for OP...nope, I don't think any of those nerfs are needed...or any good, really. I wouldn't be surprised to see a smaller round of nerfs coming up at the end of the month or beginning of July but then again, I also wouldn't be surprised if nothing happened. Fairly curious to see if team 5 will actually do something about priest because it seems pretty clear that they will have to at some point, the only thing left to puzzle is when.
Fair enough, as I've said I don't think anything NEEDS to change, but that doesn't mean it can't be improved. And I believe most issues could be solved next expansion with a bigger, more situational spell pool for priest and mage and a new decent taunt/healing neutral minion.
Yeah, let's kill priest with that ridiculous 47% winrate because that's just too high.
I've heard dumb arguments but this is still pretty up there. Where on earth did you get that laughable 47% wr? No, let me guess (as if it were difficult, there's only one option), the pointless winrates on the front page of hsreplay...got it, eh?
https://www.vicioussyndicate.com/vs-data-reaper-report-200/ here you go. Priest is a tier 3-ish deck at lower levels and spikes up at top 1k legend as the third best deck in the game. Uh. That, by the way, is what useful statistics look like, not a pointless and entirely meaningless 47% on class winrates, which is about as useful as the free stats hsreplay hands out.
I'd also like to point out this tweet https://twitter.com/FledHS/status/1408199626935652354 which was made by a current hearthstone gm and was liked by Iksar himself (which I believe is more of a "we hear you" than anything else but I'm not the man so it's just speculation on my part), which says an awful lot when paired with the data collected by VS which shows that priest wr% goes up by an entire 1% (which is massive, to put it mildly) because of the absurdly high number of turn one concedes, something they've never recorded in any previous report.
And I honestly don't care a lick about priests in standard (or wild, for that matter) but I see this argument thrown time and time again and it's one of the most asinine possible so please, find yourself a better one (and there are, I've read a few myself) and drop this idiotic one.
-
Now, as for OP...nope, I don't think any of those nerfs are needed...or any good, really. I wouldn't be surprised to see a smaller round of nerfs coming up at the end of the month or beginning of July but then again, I also wouldn't be surprised if nothing happened. Fairly curious to see if team 5 will actually do something about priest because it seems pretty clear that they will have to at some point, the only thing left to puzzle is when.
LOL ok man. Way to take my comment WAY too seriously.
- Il'Gynoth - deal damage to enemy hero equal to health restored through lifesteal (can't damage when full HP, this change would kill the OTK deck making the card a midrange/tempo option instead, similar to E.T.C.)
Why would you kill a deck ?
Uninteractive and too fast for an OTK deck. Would settle for a nerf but I'd prefer if the card could show up in other types of decks.
The effect is worth 2 mana, why not, I guess. Not sure it would see any play as a "fair" card.
- Raise Dead - 1-mana (maybe not a good idea since it would replace Renew in Wandmaker)
Wouldn't kill the card, but I can't see a reason to nerf it.
- Apotheosis - +1/+3 (too strong with Samuro)
No.
Renew and raise dead need to be adressed to fix the priest problem. Apotheosis isn't broken but the reno effect with samuro is game winning versus aggro. Other than that losing 1 attack won't affect much a card that's played mainly for the lifesteal effect. Raise dead costing 1 would significantly nerf darkglare in wild too.
Doesn't need a nerf + not a good nerf. If anything they should just remove the corrupt thing a make it a normal battlecry that can't be duplicated by Y'shaarj.
What could I say about Tickatus that hasn't been said?
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First of all I do think the game is fairly balanced, probably it doesn't even need any nerfs. My suggestions would be more to tone down the powercreeping and some of the more frustrating cards (Tickatus, Incanter's on 2). Well that and change my personal gripes.
So you know where my bias is at, I mostly play midrange/control (variations of N'Zoth and Y'Shaarj decks) and amt I hate facing priest and OTK DH. Any feedback is appreciated.
- Warsong Wrangler - give all copies +1/+1
- Piercing Shot - can't target friendly minions
- Il'Gynoth - deal damage to enemy hero equal to health restored through lifesteal (can't damage when full HP, this change would kill the OTK deck making the card a midrange/tempo option instead, similar to E.T.C.)
- Illidari Inquisitor - 7/8
- Incanter's Flow - reduce the cost of arcane spells in your deck by 1. Add a random arcane spell to your hand
- Renew - 2-mana
- Raise Dead - 1-mana (maybe not a good idea since it would replace Renew in Wandmaker)
- Apotheosis - +1/+3 (too strong with Samuro)
- Tickatus - destroy 4 cards
- Clown - corrupted form summons 4 copies of it instead of 6
- N'Zoth - 10-mana (old gods shouldn't cost less than 10!)
"Hope they nerf all the cards soon, so that my Chillwind Yeti will be OP again!"
mate, just go and play Classic if you can't stand the card's powercreep
I mostly agree with your changes. It feels that some cards are not only very powerful for their cost, but also are mandatory to be included no matter your deck strategy. For example, Illadari Inquisitor is in ALL my DH' decks (and I run 75% of meme decks) Without it, I've noticed that DH struggle a lot to compete.
I wish they would go back to vanilla 3/4 mana for 3 mana, vanilla 5/6 for 5 mana, and vanilla 8/8 for 8 mana, being "boundaries" for card design (including class cards). I want to play with deathrattles (DH excepted) and meme cards but they are so understated compared to most played cards it is just not fun.
Yeah, let's kill priest with that ridiculous 47% winrate because that's just too high. Oh, and let's throw in Nzoth and clown because hey, why not. Next thread plz
It's a 9 mana card which is hard enough to corrupt due to the lack of viable 10 mana plays and how hard it is to actually play them....and you want the corrupt reward to be "gain a single extra 4/4"? No....No....No, No, No, No
Exactly, the idea is to have as few "auto-include" cards as possible. I don't mind some amount of powercreeping (specially for high-cost cards) as long as it's not detrimental to the hero's viability. Some of the cards like the inquisitor are a little over the top when compared to legendaries like king krush, ragnaros or al'akir, and can be played 3 times in a game with N'Zoth. I was going to include lillypad lurker in the list since I don't think it needed a buff in the first place, but then I gave it a second thought and removed because classes need to do bonkers stuff for the game to be fun. As I said, I don't think the game is unbalanced, my suggestions are just here to bring classes WR closer to 50% while trying to keep the game enjoyable for everyone.
It was meant to summon 2 extra clowns (5 total) but yeah that's probably an unnecessary nerf. It's just that I feel most classes are just helpless against a board full of 8/8 or 12/12 taunts from clown druid.
There won't be any more nerfs.
Meta is balanced.
Early August comes the next expansion, they are probably working ot that, and the Mercenaries game mode.
In all fairness though, if you're engaged in a match where your opponent is that comfortable with dropping a 10 mana 'do nothing this turn' spell (unless they have minions on board) then you probably don't have the best chances of winning the game anyways.
Well, very frequently survival of the fittest is played on turn 7 or earlier, it can affect your board immediately and be followed by one or two 10/10 strongman. Clown druid is my most played deck this year, it certainly has some bad matchups but if the meta ever slows down it could become somewhat problematic. But all things considered you're probably right.
I've heard dumb arguments but this is still pretty up there. Where on earth did you get that laughable 47% wr? No, let me guess (as if it were difficult, there's only one option), the pointless winrates on the front page of hsreplay...got it, eh?
https://www.vicioussyndicate.com/vs-data-reaper-report-200/ here you go. Priest is a tier 3-ish deck at lower levels and spikes up at top 1k legend as the third best deck in the game. Uh. That, by the way, is what useful statistics look like, not a pointless and entirely meaningless 47% on class winrates, which is about as useful as the free stats hsreplay hands out.
I'd also like to point out this tweet https://twitter.com/FledHS/status/1408199626935652354 which was made by a current hearthstone gm and was liked by Iksar himself (which I believe is more of a "we hear you" than anything else but I'm not the man so it's just speculation on my part), which says an awful lot when paired with the data collected by VS which shows that priest wr% goes up by an entire 1% (which is massive, to put it mildly) because of the absurdly high number of turn one concedes, something they've never recorded in any previous report.
And I honestly don't care a lick about priests in standard (or wild, for that matter) but I see this argument thrown time and time again and it's one of the most asinine possible so please, find yourself a better one (and there are, I've read a few myself) and drop this idiotic one.
-
Now, as for OP...nope, I don't think any of those nerfs are needed...or any good, really. I wouldn't be surprised to see a smaller round of nerfs coming up at the end of the month or beginning of July but then again, I also wouldn't be surprised if nothing happened. Fairly curious to see if team 5 will actually do something about priest because it seems pretty clear that they will have to at some point, the only thing left to puzzle is when.
sure why not, it's one of the best performing cards (also one of the coolest), and this nerf isn't brutal
No.
Why would you kill a deck ?
Makes virtually no difference, so no. And no to a bigger nerf.
Completely changes the effect of the card, won't happen. Nerf to 3 is better, not sure if needed yet, but will be needed at some point.
The effect is worth 2 mana, why not, I guess. Not sure it would see any play as a "fair" card.
Wouldn't kill the card, but I can't see a reason to nerf it.
No.
Doesn't need a nerf + not a good nerf. If anything they should just remove the corrupt thing a make it a normal battlecry that can't be duplicated by Y'shaarj.
No.
No.
People want to call this meta “fair” but i wouldn’t consider more than one class having insane power level cards as real balance. I personally have a huge problem with cards like Illidari Inquisitor and Trampling Rhino which are just big charge minions with extra steps. I mean are the devs against the concept of minions attacking directly to the face the turn they’re played or not? If not, then they need to add better neutral taunt minions for classes than don’t have massive healing or armor. Games against certain classes shouldn’t be a ticking time bomb that squashes you with a single card on turn 5 or 6 imo.
edit - repost
I like your though process, OP. I personally like regular nerfs just because they often shake up the meta and give new decks and cards a chance to shine. It’s a way to make the game feel fresh without introducing any new cards.
Whenever a hunter uses Piercing Shot on one of their own 1/1s, it feels like that wasn’t how the card was supposed to work, but maybe that’s just me.
Thank you for posting this. I've grown really tired of the "Priest is garbage" argument when that is anything but the case. When played correctly (key word there) the deck is absolutely dominant; however, many people in lower ranks don't have the knowledge or patience to do this which leads to the terrible win% on HS Replay.
Fair enough, as I've said I don't think anything NEEDS to change, but that doesn't mean it can't be improved. And I believe most issues could be solved next expansion with a bigger, more situational spell pool for priest and mage and a new decent taunt/healing neutral minion.
LOL ok man. Way to take my comment WAY too seriously.
my nerf suggestion:
they should nerf every card except the cards in my deck so i can reach legend!
To live is to suffer, to survive is to find meaning in the suffer!
This is more of a flavor thing than proper balance.
Uninteractive and too fast for an OTK deck. Would settle for a nerf but I'd prefer if the card could show up in other types of decks.
1 to 3 less damage to the face or to kill a taunt minion could very much make a difference. Plus since I'd nerf N'Zoth I don't want to kill the card.
I just don't like the highroll-y nature of card like IF and Mankrik. I'd rather have it changed than just nerfed.
Renew and raise dead need to be adressed to fix the priest problem. Apotheosis isn't broken but the reno effect with samuro is game winning versus aggro. Other than that losing 1 attack won't affect much a card that's played mainly for the lifesteal effect. Raise dead costing 1 would significantly nerf darkglare in wild too.
What could I say about Tickatus that hasn't been said?