Wild has been a mess for quite a while, and it only got more messy with the addition of Stealer of Souls. While blizzard could easily nerf these decks to unplayability (just make all problematic cards have 'your charge minions have +1 attack'), i think it would be better if the decks were less powerful but still viable.
So, first off, what should wild look like, what would be the ideal? I think the ideal wild would be where all the recurring archetypes are at least tier 3 (within one standard deviation below 50% winrate). Those archetypes being big demon DH, deathrattle DH, token druid, ramp druid, aggro hunter, midrange beast hunter, secret mage, combo mage, midrange paladin, healadin, control priest, rez priest, tempo rogue, combo rogue, murloc shaman, elemental shaman, zoo warlock, handlock, pirate warrior, and control warrior. Of course, this is quite a daunting task of balancing, but again, this is the ideal to work towards, not the realistic expectation. The reason why i think this would be ideal is because these tend to be archetypes that people really like, so the idea is that if you're missing playing a certain archetype that isn't viable in standard rn, you could play wild instead.
So, what are the problem archetypes and how do we fix them without removing them entirely?
Currently the best deck in wild according to hs replay is Secret mage with a 70%+ winrate, so i think they should nerf Kabal Lackey to 'the next secret your play this turn costs 2 less, and Kabal Crystal Runner to 5 mana 'cost (1) less for each secret you've played this game'
another top tier mage deck is APM (Flamewaker) mage with 60%+ winrate, so i think they should nerf Sorcerer's Apprentice to 'the first 4 spells you play each turn cost (1) less'. This should allow them to still have the gigantic swing turns, but probably not a turn 5 otk
the new hot deck in wild is the Stealer of Souls (combo?) deck with a 65%+ winrate, i think they should make Stealer of Souls only able to activate 3 times per turn so it can still be used with Sense Demons to get Mal'Ganis swing turns, but not as good with Plot Twist
While Darkglare is only just above a 50% winrate right now, it's mostly because Stealer of Souls is a better version of the same strategy. I think Darkglare should say 'the first 4 times your hero takes damage each turn, refresh a mana crystal'
Sorcerer's Apprentice nerf idea is a little too complicated. I honestly think it would just be best off if they made it so they couldn't cost less than 1 mana. As for Stealer of Souls, I think a mechanical change is the only thing necessary. If you are Overloaded 10 Mana, you can't play anything that costs Mana. Simple as that. Why should you be able be able to play cards that cost Health when you don't actually pay the price? However, I totally agree with your changes to Secret Mage. I also think Cloud Prince should only be able to target minions. That deck cheats out way too many cards and damage points, and it's been that way for as long as I can remember.
where... what? that completely ruins the game. Gives you almost no time to think for any earlier turns which is required sometimes, and you can no longer do apm decks IDPro
Sorcerer's Apprentice nerf idea is a little too complicated. I honestly think it would just be best off if they made it so they couldn't cost less than 1 mana. As for Stealer of Souls, I think a mechanical change is the only thing necessary. If you are Overloaded 10 Mana, you can't play anything that costs Mana. Simple as that. Why should you be able be able to play cards that cost Health when you don't actually pay the price? However, I totally agree with your changes to Secret Mage. I also think Cloud Prince should only be able to target minions. That deck cheats out way too many cards and damage points, and it's been that way for as long as I can remember.
I think there are more complex cards than my suggestion for Sorcerer's Apprentice, but either way, that kind of nerf would be fine as well. For Stealer of Souls, making it not work with immune would only reduce the amount of strategies available for deckbuilding. Having more strategies and synergies is what makes card games interesting, so, while it would fix the problem of playing your entire deck for free, my solution would also do that, while keeping those kinds of strategies as a possibility
Nerfing Cloud Prince i think is reasonable, but i wanted to suggest the fewest and smallest nerfs possible as a suggested first step. After they implement the nerfs, if secret mage was still a dominant deck, i think nerfing that as well would be prudent.
Sorcerer's Apprentice nerf idea is a little too complicated. I honestly think it would just be best off if they made it so they couldn't cost less than 1 mana. As for Stealer of Souls, I think a mechanical change is the only thing necessary. If you are Overloaded 10 Mana, you can't play anything that costs Mana. Simple as that. Why should you be able be able to play cards that cost Health when you don't actually pay the price? However, I totally agree with your changes to Secret Mage. I also think Cloud Prince should only be able to target minions. That deck cheats out way too many cards and damage points, and it's been that way for as long as I can remember.
I think there are more complex cards than my suggestion for Sorcerer's Apprentice, but either way, that kind of nerf would be fine as well. For Stealer of Souls, making it not work with immune would only reduce the amount of strategies available for deckbuilding. Having more strategies and synergies is what makes card games interesting, so, while it would fix the problem of playing your entire deck for free, my solution would also do that, while keeping those kinds of strategies as a possibility
Nerfing Cloud Prince i think is reasonable, but i wanted to suggest the fewest and smallest nerfs possible as a suggested first step. After they implement the nerfs, if secret mage was still a dominant deck, i think nerfing that as well would be prudent.
I really hate nerfing cards, especially ones like stealer of souls that are rather unique. Right now the mechathun variant is pretty meh because of animation times and inconsistencies with draw and messing it up. It also loses to hyper aggro, I think if stealer of souls was to be a problem it would be because of the dump your whole hand variant.
I really hate nerfing cards, especially ones like stealer of souls that are rather unique. Right now the mechathun variant is pretty meh because of animation times and inconsistencies with draw and messing it up. It also loses to hyper aggro, I think if stealer of souls was to be a problem it would be because of the dump your whole hand variant.
yeah, the dump your hand variant is better, but losing to hyper aggro doesn't matter when it comes to it needing to be nerfed because it beats literally everything else and a meta that's only Stealer of Souls Warlock and hyper aggro is not healthy
The problem with nerfing combo decks is that it always helps the players that love control. Combo decks keep slow control decks in check. So I'm always skeptical of players calling for the nerfing of combo decks, because these requests are usually self serving to their interests as a player.
Rock, Paper, Scissors = Control, Aggro, Combo.
I play a lot of combo Warlock. And while Stealer of Souls has turned up the heat by going off on turn 5/6. It's by no means as stable as the turn 9 variant I play. There have been quite a few games with Stealer that just leave you high and dry, because you drew out the deck wrong. Or was shut down by animation.
Personally I wish they had never made Stealer of Souls. Now I have to watch out for tech hate if the win rate climbs. Although I did my daily and weekly's this morning with little fanfare running the old build. Except for that one game Blizzard gave to a noob player. ;(
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Grammar is the difference between knowing your crap, and knowing you’re crap.
If your deck was shut down by animation, it's a deck that shouldn't exist. Less from a balance standpoint but from a gameplay philosophy in general standpoint.
It is the least fun thing in the world watching an opponent play solitaire.
The problem with nerfing combo decks is that it always helps the players that love control. Combo decks keep slow control decks in check. So I'm always skeptical of players calling for the nerfing of combo decks, because these requests are usually self serving to their interests as a player.
Rock, Paper, Scissors = Control, Aggro, Combo.
I play a lot of combo Warlock. And while Stealer of Souls has turned up the heat by going off on turn 5/6. It's by no means as stable as the turn 9 variant I play. There have been quite a few games with Stealer that just leave you high and dry, because you drew out the deck wrong. Or was shut down by animation.
Personally I wish they had never made Stealer of Souls. Now I have to watch out for tech hate if the win rate climbs. Although I did my daily and weekly's this morning with little fanfare running the old build. Except for that one game Blizzard gave to a noob player. ;(
helping control decks doesn't seem like a bad idea when all the best decks are aggro (to counter combo) and combo.
Also interesting that you mentioned tech hate since people putting that in their deck indicates there's too many combo decks in the meta
What’s that? Wild is unbalanced? Not seen a thread mention it for at least 20 minutes.
That's actually quite an impressive feat considering the average wild player can't go 10 minutes without announcing to the whole world that they play wild.
First rule about playing wild mode in hearthstone is to make sure you never let anyone forget that you play wild regardless if of them asking or online card games even being part of the conversation.
What’s that? Wild is unbalanced? Not seen a thread mention it for at least 20 minutes.
That's actually quite an impressive feat considering the average wild player can't go 10 minutes without announcing to the whole world that they play wild.
First rule about playing wild mode in hearthstone is to make sure you never let anyone forget that you play wild regardless if of them asking or online card games even being part of the conversation.
Maybe what wild needs is a little disclaimer to pop up when you select the game mode that warns you of the mess you are about to engage in. You know, sort of like those warning labels on coffee cups that tell you coffee is hot.
This is just my personal take on this kinda stuff, but it's really up for those in the design spots of the game. I hit Legend in Wild every month and it can be quite draining. I personally have no clue how I'd change Secret Mage other than the universal Ice Block change.
Wild has been a mess for quite a while, and it only got more messy with the addition of Stealer of Souls. While blizzard could easily nerf these decks to unplayability (just make all problematic cards have 'your charge minions have +1 attack'), i think it would be better if the decks were less powerful but still viable.
So, first off, what should wild look like, what would be the ideal? I think the ideal wild would be where all the recurring archetypes are at least tier 3 (within one standard deviation below 50% winrate). Those archetypes being big demon DH, deathrattle DH, token druid, ramp druid, aggro hunter, midrange beast hunter, secret mage, combo mage, midrange paladin, healadin, control priest, rez priest, tempo rogue, combo rogue, murloc shaman, elemental shaman, zoo warlock, handlock, pirate warrior, and control warrior. Of course, this is quite a daunting task of balancing, but again, this is the ideal to work towards, not the realistic expectation. The reason why i think this would be ideal is because these tend to be archetypes that people really like, so the idea is that if you're missing playing a certain archetype that isn't viable in standard rn, you could play wild instead.
So, what are the problem archetypes and how do we fix them without removing them entirely?
Currently the best deck in wild according to hs replay is Secret mage with a 70%+ winrate, so i think they should nerf Kabal Lackey to 'the next secret your play this turn costs 2 less, and Kabal Crystal Runner to 5 mana 'cost (1) less for each secret you've played this game'
another top tier mage deck is APM (Flamewaker) mage with 60%+ winrate, so i think they should nerf Sorcerer's Apprentice to 'the first 4 spells you play each turn cost (1) less'. This should allow them to still have the gigantic swing turns, but probably not a turn 5 otk
the new hot deck in wild is the Stealer of Souls (combo?) deck with a 65%+ winrate, i think they should make Stealer of Souls only able to activate 3 times per turn so it can still be used with Sense Demons to get Mal'Ganis swing turns, but not as good with Plot Twist
While Darkglare is only just above a 50% winrate right now, it's mostly because Stealer of Souls is a better version of the same strategy. I think Darkglare should say 'the first 4 times your hero takes damage each turn, refresh a mana crystal'
Most OTKs take a lot of time, so the best but most little nerf for them is to reduce the time limit.
Turn 1 should only take 15 seconds. Turn 2 20 seconds. Turn 3 25 seconds. And so on until turn 10+ at 60 seconds.
That should nerf all of the OTK decks. As a big bonus, it also solves roping problems.
The ONLY problem with this IMO is that people will be more likely to try skip animation hack, but I don't think most people will bother with it.
Sorcerer's Apprentice nerf idea is a little too complicated. I honestly think it would just be best off if they made it so they couldn't cost less than 1 mana. As for Stealer of Souls, I think a mechanical change is the only thing necessary. If you are Overloaded 10 Mana, you can't play anything that costs Mana. Simple as that. Why should you be able be able to play cards that cost Health when you don't actually pay the price? However, I totally agree with your changes to Secret Mage. I also think Cloud Prince should only be able to target minions. That deck cheats out way too many cards and damage points, and it's been that way for as long as I can remember.
where... what? that completely ruins the game. Gives you almost no time to think for any earlier turns which is required sometimes, and you can no longer do apm decks IDPro
Card games, and games in general should never have strategies restricted purely because of UI, this is a terrible idea
I think there are more complex cards than my suggestion for Sorcerer's Apprentice, but either way, that kind of nerf would be fine as well. For Stealer of Souls, making it not work with immune would only reduce the amount of strategies available for deckbuilding. Having more strategies and synergies is what makes card games interesting, so, while it would fix the problem of playing your entire deck for free, my solution would also do that, while keeping those kinds of strategies as a possibility
Nerfing Cloud Prince i think is reasonable, but i wanted to suggest the fewest and smallest nerfs possible as a suggested first step. After they implement the nerfs, if secret mage was still a dominant deck, i think nerfing that as well would be prudent.
I really hate nerfing cards, especially ones like stealer of souls that are rather unique. Right now the mechathun variant is pretty meh because of animation times and inconsistencies with draw and messing it up. It also loses to hyper aggro, I think if stealer of souls was to be a problem it would be because of the dump your whole hand variant.
yeah, the dump your hand variant is better, but losing to hyper aggro doesn't matter when it comes to it needing to be nerfed because it beats literally everything else and a meta that's only Stealer of Souls Warlock and hyper aggro is not healthy
The problem with nerfing combo decks is that it always helps the players that love control. Combo decks keep slow control decks in check. So I'm always skeptical of players calling for the nerfing of combo decks, because these requests are usually self serving to their interests as a player.
Rock, Paper, Scissors = Control, Aggro, Combo.
I play a lot of combo Warlock. And while Stealer of Souls has turned up the heat by going off on turn 5/6. It's by no means as stable as the turn 9 variant I play. There have been quite a few games with Stealer that just leave you high and dry, because you drew out the deck wrong. Or was shut down by animation.
Personally I wish they had never made Stealer of Souls. Now I have to watch out for tech hate if the win rate climbs. Although I did my daily and weekly's this morning with little fanfare running the old build. Except for that one game Blizzard gave to a noob player. ;(
Grammar is the difference between knowing your crap, and knowing you’re crap.
A .gif is worth a thousand words.
If your deck was shut down by animation, it's a deck that shouldn't exist. Less from a balance standpoint but from a gameplay philosophy in general standpoint.
It is the least fun thing in the world watching an opponent play solitaire.
helping control decks doesn't seem like a bad idea when all the best decks are aggro (to counter combo) and combo.
Also interesting that you mentioned tech hate since people putting that in their deck indicates there's too many combo decks in the meta
What’s that? Wild is unbalanced? Not seen a thread mention it for at least 20 minutes.
To be fair, the degeneracy stems from the immunity effect itself, probably needs some sort of cap in its interaction with self-inflicted damage.
But easiest way to axe the soulstealer turbo-combo is to make its animation even SLOWER. And even then it'd still be a degenerate card.
That's actually quite an impressive feat considering the average wild player can't go 10 minutes without announcing to the whole world that they play wild.
First rule about playing wild mode in hearthstone is to make sure you never let anyone forget that you play wild regardless if of them asking or online card games even being part of the conversation.
How dare people *checks notes* want a format to be balanced
I’m guessing they’re all vegans too.
Maybe what wild needs is a little disclaimer to pop up when you select the game mode that warns you of the mess you are about to engage in. You know, sort of like those warning labels on coffee cups that tell you coffee is hot.
Wild format is an ever burning tire fire. Just accept it!
I have heard a lot about what is wrong with this format. Personally, I'd remove/nerf:
Ice Block (This card can equate to taking extra turns just because it exists)
Loatheb (To make combo and control decks more viable)
Stealer of Souls (To five mana maybe)
This is just my personal take on this kinda stuff, but it's really up for those in the design spots of the game. I hit Legend in Wild every month and it can be quite draining. I personally have no clue how I'd change Secret Mage other than the universal Ice Block change.
"Get nae nae'd"
why on earth would we do that?