The OP is a bit of a train wreck and insinuating negatives about people who netdeck is never going to lead to an interesting discussion. Especially given what Hearthstone is now.
I understand the overall gripe with the game however, but your best bet is probably just to move on. The Hearthstone devs have replaced the original method of balancing with a one which doesn’t really favour experimentation, at least not to the extent that your average HS player can experiment with much freedom.
Powerful cards now are released to fit narrow archetypes and anything that doesn’t fit those archetypes (or hard counters them) is going to struggle to keep up. Essentially Blizzard are heavily moulding the meta and the only way to compete is to netdeck what they want you to play.
That is Standard, but the effects of powercreep will hit Wild too, perhaps more so.
If you haven’t already then give Legends of Runeterra a try, there are obviously decks which stand in a league of their own, but given the nature of the game and how the cards are balanced across the board there is a lot of room for experimentation without feeling like you are playing a different game entirely to your opponent.
I downloaded the game wanting to hate it but after a few weeks I’m struggling to see how I could return back to HS.
For one, some people just don't find deckbuilding as fun as you do. I didn't for ages - I've only really grown to appreciate tinkering around with weird builds in the past couple of years.
For two - playing the actual game is fun. If it wasn't, you probably wouldn't care about deckbuilding either. Despite what people will endlessly repeat, there's skill involved in thinking about what you can do to make your opponent's potential answers the least effective possible. There's decisions to be made, and it's very satisfying to beat skilled opponents. Grinding the same deck for months on end isn't something I do anymore, but I played a very similar Midrange Paladin list from GvG until WotOG rotated a lot of the core cards out, and I felt an immense amount of satisfaction from how good I got with it. I knew exactly how to react to most boards, when to save my AoE, and what matchups I had to play as though I was an aggro deck. It feels very good to be very good at something.
For three - it's incredibly overstated how difficult it is to do well with weird homebrew jank. Is my N'Zoth Dude Paladin worse than a standard Paladin list? Almost certainly. It's going to take longer to get to Legend, and it'd probably be basically impossible to get into high Legend with it. Can I still make it to Legend with it? I admittedly don't know for sure because I've not actually tried since this expansion's meta has been terrible, but I'm willing to bet I could. It definitely did pretty OK for the two weeks I was playing Standard. I've made it to Legend with similarly wacky decks, though it has been a struggle at times. By playing off meta you're almost certainly sacrificing winrate, but that's why meta decks are meta to begin with. They're the best options, but they're not the only viable options. Just don't be pretend the meta doesn't exist - if your homebrew deck gets destroyed by Secret Pally maybe don't queue with it and expect to win a lot.
All that said, I do think Hearthstone would be a significantly better game without sites like HSReplay and ViciousSyndicate. If there weren't easily-accesible stats about what exactly the best performing cards are then you'd have a lot less of an idea as to what your opponent is playing, which makes the game more fun and skilful in general.
Making a deck and seeing how well it does against other decks, experimenting with different classes and archetypes, discovering a play style and cards that you enjoy is what makes TCG fun.
No. There, right off the bat, it's unquestionably incontrovertibly objectively false that what you just described is what makes TCGs fun. Not just because you conveniently mixed a boatload of crap that has no relation to each other (making a deck and experimenting with different archetypes, for instance) but because it's a pretty obvious fact that for the vast majority of players on ladder (i.e. not the minuscule whining minority that argues here or on reddit) the thing that is most fun...is winning. Simple as that. Winning has nothing to do with experimenting with different classes and archetypes or playstyles, let alone deck building. So there you go, your first commandment is already hogwash, off to a good start.
So what's the point in playing hearthstone then?
Having fun.
I've been playing from open beta and every new meta I've tried to make my own decks, even if they were bad I tried to enjoy the building and experimenting part of the game to it's fullest. However, as more and more websites relating to HS sprouted and netdecking became more relevant, the huge aspect of experimenting and figuring stuff out on your own is completely dead. Playing against the exact same decks over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over... Just killed any point in me trying to make something
How is this anyone else's issue exactly?
Can someone please answer me - "Is it fun to just copy decks from a website?",
No more fun than copying and pasting anything else is.
"Is it fun not to put any thought in the cards that are in *your* deck?"
Not really, I look at a deck and think "is this good enough?" or "my meta pocket is such and such, should I drop this card and put tech x in?". Not putting thought in what cards are in a deck isn't fun or unfun, it's just what it is.
, "Is it fun to play the same exact deck for more than a couple of years?". It can't be, right?
Ah, see, this is where you really show how far up your backside your head is. Spoilers for you, there are in fact players who love playing the same archetype and even the same deck for as long as it's playable. Why do you think reno priest has always been on ladder from standard to wild for how many years now?
I played for a year and change with a maly druid deck that was the very first deck I could afford to build for wild, and I built that deck specifically because I loved playing it. I was tired of it after a while and there are people who get tired of playing the same deck after like 5 games, even with winning scores, but there are plenty of players who have that deck and will jam it until it's not viable anymore. And I'm pretty certain they like it so, effectively, it's fun for them. Welcome to mother Earth, where people with opinions different from your own actually reside.
Well...A good example is secret mage. Really wish they would stop printing cards that support the archetype.
I wish the same, but Iksar loves the archetype, what can you do.
And if you say - "Well, uhm the deck changed over the years" or "There are stronger decks out there",
It has (exponentially, even, the change from Aluneth to Sayge made the deck much more board-centric and less focused on damage from hand than it was before) and there are.
then you are a moron.
Keep shoving your head up that hole, lad.
For how long secret mage remains as one of the most popular decks in wild?
Presumably for a very long time as it's incredibly finely tuned, teching against it is almost counterproductive and it has almost no real counterplay to speak of, other than odd warrior, which is a mid-garbage deck that loses regularly to the other tier 1 decks.
And as for the other part, the deck just replaced cards for better cards that do more or less the exact same thing. What's the difference between 1 card that can draw 4-6 cards and has a cost of 6 mana, and 2 secrets that cost 0 or 3 mana and can draw you 6 cards?
Oh mate, I don't know, please tell me, not all of us are students of the game like you.
The funny thing is people don't even know why secret mage doesn't run the weapon or the minion anymore.
Ha, those imbeciles.
And again, for those of you that say that the secrets are just better - go back to netdecking.
Hmm...before rigged faire game was printed, secret mage was low tier 2, if that and after it was printed it shot up to tier 1 and it's stayed there ever since...can't possibly be because the secret is better and lackey into RFG on turn 1 has something like a +20% spike in WR% for secret mages. Nah, I'll go back to netdecking, that's fine by me.
The answer is tempo, reliability, disruption, counterplay and symbiosis with other cards.
Oh there you go, if you had the answer all along why all the non-sequitur nonsense earlier? Why, you're such a tease.
Hope I don't need to digest and explain every part further, since this thread will become too long.
Not like any of us asked you to drone on with your silly inconsequential points in any way, shape or form, matey.
Now back to the main topic. I just can't imagine that someone actually finds it fun to copy a deck and then play only that one deck for more than a year.
I pity you, must be borderline sociopathic to have no empathy and no imagination to speak of. Please see a therapist if this condition persists.
What's the point in playing then?
To win games. I know, I know, imaging having fun by winning in a competitive game, but what can you do, lowly peasants are like that, they don't appreciate the high IQ and good taste needed to invest one's time in the superior art of deck building.
Why not let someone else play the game or let the computer play for you as well,
Well, bots do just that actually.
since you already undermine half of the game already.
See, comparing deck building to being "half of the game" is a concept that, unlike you, I can understand but, simultaneously, I find hilariously stupid. I would also bet just about anything that the vast majority of the player base doesn't even remotely see it that way. And newsbreak for you, what the majority thinks is fairly important in many situations in life. In case the news hadn't yet delivered to your mansion, that is.
I know this is salty and all.
Also extremely conceited, pig-headed, arrogant and factually incorrect. Amongst other things.
And everyone finds pleasure in different things.
Well, if you knew that from the start why did you go on that idiotic tirade then?
But I'm just really tired of playing and seeing more or less the exact same decks and loosing to the exact same stuff for years. Every time I play against a unique deck I stop caring about winning or loosing. I just try to figure out what their deck is and what are they trying to do with it.
That sucks but it's your bloody problem, lad. I personally can empathise with you being tired of seeing the same decks over and over again, but, frankly put, I don't give a thimbful of jizz about it. It's a self-created problem that has several solutions:
Solution the First: you stop playing. There's no one holding you on the keyboard and making you press that battlenet icon. If the game is so painful to you, wtf do you keep playing it in the first place. Sunken cost fallacy? Good old memories? No other hobbies?
Solution the Second: you change the way you see things. This is obviously not easy (well, not as easy as just uninstalling hearthstone, at any rate) but changing the way you think is clearly doable. Realise that most people you meet on ladder are there to have their fun and they don't give a fuck about your fun, and rightly so. Most people netdeck, come to grips with it and find enjoyment in something else that isn't just trying to find somebody else running horridly unoptimal decks.
Solution the Third: since you clearly play wild...de-rank. I played at diamond until idk, September or thereabout, when life events and playing other games made me so bored and annoyed with hearthstone that I couldn't be arsed. I ended up not playing or playing just for achievements for so long that I ended up with a 2x multiplier and that was it. I've been climbing again the past months since I have finally fun with the game again and I can say, from my own experience as well as spectating other friends who are at those ranks, that on EU there are a lot of people in the lower ranks that bring their old decks or even people who, as you put it, homebrew their decks. There's a reason why I saw fewer of them from Plat upwards, but while there are some kingsbane rogues, secret mages, reno decks & co., you can find a veritable trove of homebrewers at silver/gold ranks, assuming your mmr belongs to those ranks. If your presumably massive ego can take the hit of playing at these ranks, your mental health will be much better for it.
Nowadays, I'll be lucky to play against even 1 unique deck in a week. And the most hilarious part is, that people copy the strongest decks and play casual as well. The only thought that crosses my mind in such situations is what kind of clown am I playing against?
This is just a personal hypothesis, but I'd wager you're playing against someone who can't deal with the massive anxiety and stress that ladder gives them and yet they like winning or trying good decks and so they do so in the only place that gives them a challenge while not having to deal with the stress of actually laddering with said deck and not burying their ego by playing against the innkeeper. I know Iksar had mentioned a ladder with just AI opponents, I wonder how it'd actually fare in the game.
Naturally, there are also just people who want to win and think that casual will (correctly) give them an easier time than ladder. Maybe they've had a big loss streak or maybe they just like griefing on the casual players, that's always a possibility.
Anyway, yeah, the fact that you couldn't understand something had already been demonstrated in excruciating detail in the previous parts of your post but there you go, another piece of reality for you to chew on.
---
The final point I'd like to make is that if you're actually good at this whole deckbuilding thing, then you will be virtually unrecognisable from a netdecker. The reason is obvious, and it's that there is usually one optimal way to build a deck and that most decks have a vast number of core cards within, which makes """deckbuilding""" basically amount to "swap 3 cards from this list someone used in high legend". Would you play secret mage without either weapon or Sayge? Of course not. Arcanologist? Mad scientist? Explosive runes? Kabal lackey? RFG, prince, valet? No, you'd be stupid to not put those cards in. So, in the end, what's left? Rinse and repeat for literally every archetype you can find. If you want to build a control mage, you'd be silly not to have ice block. And if it's a control deck, reno is priceless. And if reno's in then might as well put all other highlander cards. You want to build an elemental mage deck? We all already know the best cards and you'll have to skew the deck in order to accomodate for dk Jaina, because if you don't, the deck will be absolutely horrible.
There are very few people who can actually build their own decks that work and aren't only a "one time combo after 60 tries haha streamer special" type of thing. And even then, if the deck is veritably good, it'll go from being "homebrew" to meta and then it'll be normalised. Want an example? Handbuff paladin. Before last expansion, there was basically a guy playing it on high NA legend in wild. The deck wasn't bad by any means and the extent to which he "homebrew" it was limited (because this was basically mech handbuff without mechs, so a lof ot the cards were already core) and yet when it became clear how strong it was with the new expansion, a lot of people started playing it and it became meta and standardised. The only homebrew decks that aren't meta are bad ones and if you play bad decks you really should stop complaining about other people not doing the same just to satisfy your illogical wish for unoptimal """originality""". Cheers, hope you find some happiness within or without this game.
Is building a bicycle more fun for you than riding one? Even if it is, do you honestly not understand why people prefer to buy bicycles rather than build their own, creative and unique ones?
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
English is not my native language, so, with a high probability, mistakes were made.
Ive been there OP. I would exclusively make my own decks and get pissed off when I lose to netdeckers. I ended up hating the game and quick for 2 years. Recently came back and have mostly enjoyed it. Wild is a my preferred format because I have most of the older cards, but it is so toxic right now with flamewaker mage and big priest being majority of opponents that I'm taking a break with standard and arena.
I actually got to legend for the first time after my return, and hit it on both accounts 3 months straight. I don't use netdecks still, some of my decks are very close, but either because im missing a few cards or I am teching against what I see mostly I have made some changes and they have worked pretty well. I am having a much better time, even when I do try to make something obscure like Reno Keleseth minion based priest deck or miracle beast hunter work.
you can also take advantage of some of the netdeckers. I lot of people playing t1 decks in my games have seriously misplayed with hunter, paladin and secret mage by only going face before they eventually lose the board and the game. Occassionally they are rewarded for that playstyle, but I am mostly able to turn those games and win.
One of my biggest issues besides flamewaker mage is the bots i see a lot of time on ranked ladder. those mother fuckers that just hero power and rope every turn for free exp are excruciating. sure, they are free wins, but in the time it takes to deal with that I would have played and possible won multiple games. I've seen those things at D3 before. they are not only getting free exp, but also free wins which is bullshit, and there is no way to report it ingame so they will continue to do it. At least the old pirate warrior bots you had a chance to lose, but if you lost it was only turn 5 anyways and games were only 2-3 minutes. these take like 10+ minutes against odd warrior bot that drops a taunt and hero power every turn..
I surely do share your opinion on that, it would be more refreshing and interesting video game if your builds were somewhat unique or at least bit different than others. On standard ive had success multiple seasons climbing to legends with off meta builds ease BUT those are still often copied, like 28/30 cards from some1 elses post. That doesn't satisfy me but I clearly dont have enough time to test off-meta decks and cards to make them work at least on semi-competitive manner.
But my cents is that every single video game is most often just (sadly) copying from others that have more time/knowledge. I havent played console games at all after guides came out and moved on more competitive online games. Though nowadays even those games like league of legends have tools/guides, which basically makes the game just based on mechanics and patterns you will do every single game. Before card statistics came available and deck win rates, Meta wasnt found that fast, which kept me playing longer period of time / expansions.
A question asking why people play Hearthstone in a forum on a niche website about Hearthstone, written by a member of said Hearthstone website whom has been playing Hearthstone since the beta of Hearthstone.
whats the point of discussing deckbuilding when theres a discover mechanic?
And theres viable decks that just consist of discovercards. So doesnt matter you discover simply all the time whats needed in that moment, no reason to put it in your deck. Like a Zephrys... A horrible bad card imo. That s how HS got horrible, it just ruins the fun to play against this...
No matter how hard Blizz try, this game is in dip shit. RnG was fun but to a certain degree, it is out of control now. Games are too polarized almost every game is decided by your opponent's class, mulligans and first few draws. Win more cards are everywhere. They keep printing too many fillers. 70-80% of the cards are unplayable for competitive level. As OP says net decks are too optimized so there is literally no chance to beat them with your own decks.
Everyone plays the same decks which I understand, everyone wants to win. Blizz can't do anything since game is designed as a casual mobile game. Skill in heartstone is the biggest joke. Of course you should know the basic (efficient trades, when to go face, play around few spells when you can etc.). In reality, your refined net decks and your luck win you the game.
Every game makes me feel like rolling a dice. Not fun anymore.
Yeah, play a pro and tell me there's no skill involved. Even in a mirror match, he/ she will beat you WAAAAY more than 50% of the time.
Whatever it takes to make you feel better about yourself.
just not true at all!
Yeah, pure luck is why the same players reach legend every month, the same core of pros win tournaments, etc. They're just luckier than you.
Some folks have a remarkable talent for self-delusion.
The old - but the same people reach legend. So WHAT? It means nothing except that they choose to grind away with the busted deck of the month club. Thats it. Yes, some clowns also use those same decks and dont make it. Oh well. They didnt draw the right matchups or happen to be truly terrible players - I mean like the worst of the worst. In a casino it does NOT always equal out. Sometimes people win a little more than others. The game takes no skill. C'mon. Drop that garbage argument. I beat "card-back" holders all the time. Big deal. They dont impress me anymore than a bronze player. Not at all. I win when I draw good & the match up is good and lose when I dont. Same as Legend players. I dilly-dally at D5 or slightly higher every season. I *could* grind it out but its boring to play nothing but Palabarf or Secret Mage. No thanks. Or Dark-glare Warlock. The play quality is NO different at all at D5 than at S5 or G5. Sorry, facts. Time to accept that and just realize that the game is setup so decks win games, not players. Another fact. Only the worst of the worst players actually lose games due to stupid plays. That happens at low bronze only.
Show me a true legend run with a home brew or NON-cancer deck from these eh-hem pros. Then I'll believe your theory.
Yeah, play a pro and tell me there's no skill involved. Even in a mirror match, he/ she will beat you WAAAAY more than 50% of the time.
Whatever it takes to make you feel better about yourself.
just not true at all!
Yeah, pure luck is why the same players reach legend every month, the same core of pros win tournaments, etc. They're just luckier than you.
Some folks have a remarkable talent for self-delusion.
The old - but the same people reach legend. So WHAT? It means nothing except that they choose to grind away with the busted deck of the month club. Thats it. Yes, some clowns also use those same decks and dont make it. Oh well. They didnt draw the right matchups or happen to be truly terrible players - I mean like the worst of the worst. In a casino it does NOT always equal out. Sometimes people win a little more than others. The game takes no skill. C'mon. Drop that garbage argument. I beat "card-back" holders all the time. Big deal. They dont impress me anymore than a bronze player. Not at all. I win when I draw good & the match up is good and lose when I dont. Same as Legend players. I dilly-dally at D5 or slightly higher every season. I *could* grind it out but its boring to play nothing but Palabarf or Secret Mage. No thanks. Or Dark-glare Warlock. The play quality is NO different at all at D5 than at S5 or G5. Sorry, facts. Time to accept that and just realize that the game is setup so decks win games, not players. Another fact. Only the worst of the worst players actually lose games due to stupid plays. That happens at low bronze only.
Show me a true legend run with a home brew or NON-cancer deck from these eh-hem pros. Then I'll believe your theory.
Literally go watch any Kibler stream then, all he plays is homebrew.
The old - but the same people reach legend. So WHAT? It means nothing except that they choose to grind away with the busted deck of the month club. Thats it. Yes, some clowns also use those same decks and dont make it. Oh well. They didnt draw the right matchups or happen to be truly terrible players - I mean like the worst of the worst. In a casino it does NOT always equal out. Sometimes people win a little more than others. The game takes no skill. C'mon. Drop that garbage argument. I beat "card-back" holders all the time. Big deal. They dont impress me anymore than a bronze player. Not at all. I win when I draw good & the match up is good and lose when I dont. Same as Legend players. I dilly-dally at D5 or slightly higher every season. I *could* grind it out but its boring to play nothing but Palabarf or Secret Mage. No thanks. Or Dark-glare Warlock. The play quality is NO different at all at D5 than at S5 or G5. Sorry, facts. Time to accept that and just realize that the game is setup so decks win games, not players. Another fact. Only the worst of the worst players actually lose games due to stupid plays. That happens at low bronze only.
Show me a true legend run with a home brew or NON-cancer deck from these eh-hem pros. Then I'll believe your theory.
While the idea of "people can just play the best decks and get to legend with ease" is comforting for people like me, who play silly shit like Even decks exclusively in Wild Ladder - it doesn't really hold up to scrutiny does it? You said it yourself that it doesn't always work. Sometimes people play the best deck in the game and still don't make it to legend, then proceed to ignore it? Or just say they're terrible and move on? But that refutes the whole idea that the best decks automatically carry people into legend.
Because if that were true, then that'd be how it is. Legend would be packed with players that are between Silver to Platinum in skill level all facing each other with the best decks in the game. Matchup knowledge, individual player skill, hand reading, and good deck piloting are all things that matter in card games, even ones as broken as Hearthstone. That's why we see these decks everywhere on ladder, from Casual Queue to Bronze through Diamond - the best decks in the game are being played, yet somehow they haven't made it to legend. Better ignore that and chock it up to them getting bad matchups even though they're playing the decks that have the fewest number of bad matchups, a logical conclusion to come to since they're all tier 1.
It's not like I've ever made it to legend. I'd like to some day, but I wanna do it playing Even Hunter, or whatever other Hunter deck is fun enough to keep my interest on ladder. But when we look at the cream of the crop top level Hearthstone players, skill being a part of success in this game is hard to deny. Thijs for example sometimes blows me away with skillful play/thinking. Regis Killbin plays nothing but jank but still does alright because he's a really solid player, and he's not even a pro.
Of course there's skill required to do well in this game. You can admit that people who are "terrible, the worst of the worst" can't climb with the best decks, then there's clearly a scale of skill level that impacts success on ladder.
Yeah, play a pro and tell me there's no skill involved. Even in a mirror match, he/ she will beat you WAAAAY more than 50% of the time.
Whatever it takes to make you feel better about yourself.
just not true at all!
Yeah, pure luck is why the same players reach legend every month, the same core of pros win tournaments, etc. They're just luckier than you.
Some folks have a remarkable talent for self-delusion.
The old - but the same people reach legend. So WHAT? It means nothing except that they choose to grind away with the busted deck of the month club. Thats it. Yes, some clowns also use those same decks and dont make it. Oh well. They didnt draw the right matchups or happen to be truly terrible players - I mean like the worst of the worst. In a casino it does NOT always equal out. Sometimes people win a little more than others. The game takes no skill. C'mon. Drop that garbage argument. I beat "card-back" holders all the time. Big deal. They dont impress me anymore than a bronze player. Not at all. I win when I draw good & the match up is good and lose when I dont. Same as Legend players. I dilly-dally at D5 or slightly higher every season. I *could* grind it out but its boring to play nothing but Palabarf or Secret Mage. No thanks. Or Dark-glare Warlock. The play quality is NO different at all at D5 than at S5 or G5. Sorry, facts. Time to accept that and just realize that the game is setup so decks win games, not players. Another fact. Only the worst of the worst players actually lose games due to stupid plays. That happens at low bronze only.
Show me a true legend run with a home brew or NON-cancer deck from these eh-hem pros. Then I'll believe your theory.
I don't know who you're playing, but I can tell you I see a vast difference in the quality of play between Bronze and Diamond. As in night and day difference (particularly if you wait to start laddering until the middle of the month, when most of the really good players have already moved to the higher rungs of the ladder). At the lower levels, I see countless examples of horrible misplays, complete failure to anticipate my next move or read my hand, and an absolute lack of awareness of what his win condition really is vis-a-vis my deck. There is far, far less of that at the higher ranks.
And even if I granted you your absurd statement WRT legend, it wouldn't hold for the pros at all. Have you ever actually watched these guys play? Again, in a mirror match, they would beat you (and me) EASILY 65% of the time. Easily. Sure, we might get some lucky draws and win some games, but the quality of play wouldn't be close. They simply have more skill at the game than we do. You're like one of those guys who says "I could easily beat a poker pro. All you gotta do is know the odds." Sure, sometimes a no-namer wins a big poker tourney, but there's a reason many of the same guys end up at the final table, and it ain't luck.
And, yeah, I'm sure you beat "card back" guys all the time. Just like I believe your daddy drives a Ferrari, you're a secret agent, and your girlfriend lives in France.
Saying there us no skill involved is demonstrably false. It’s completely stupid and it’s cringey as fuck that people keep saying it. Playing the game consistently well enough the reach high legend takes a lot of skill, saying otherwise just makes you look bitter, weird and/or incredibly dumb.
Hearthstone is like autotune, it can make everybody sound okay, but if they cannot actually sing they’re never going to be the next [insert pop reference here]. RNG and the advantage gained by playing on curve means that anybody can win if they netdeck a refined aggro list. But they’ll only make high legend if they put a lot of time into learning every aspect of the game and current meta.
I can only assume that those who claim the game takes no skill, even at the highest level, are the ones benefiting from Hearthstones autotune the most. As anyone who actually understands the game would have no problems seeing the clear divide between players who are truly good and those who aren’t.
The OP is a bit of a train wreck and insinuating negatives about people who netdeck is never going to lead to an interesting discussion. Especially given what Hearthstone is now.
I understand the overall gripe with the game however, but your best bet is probably just to move on. The Hearthstone devs have replaced the original method of balancing with a one which doesn’t really favour experimentation, at least not to the extent that your average HS player can experiment with much freedom.
Powerful cards now are released to fit narrow archetypes and anything that doesn’t fit those archetypes (or hard counters them) is going to struggle to keep up. Essentially Blizzard are heavily moulding the meta and the only way to compete is to netdeck what they want you to play.
That is Standard, but the effects of powercreep will hit Wild too, perhaps more so.
If you haven’t already then give Legends of Runeterra a try, there are obviously decks which stand in a league of their own, but given the nature of the game and how the cards are balanced across the board there is a lot of room for experimentation without feeling like you are playing a different game entirely to your opponent.
I downloaded the game wanting to hate it but after a few weeks I’m struggling to see how I could return back to HS.
For one, some people just don't find deckbuilding as fun as you do. I didn't for ages - I've only really grown to appreciate tinkering around with weird builds in the past couple of years.
For two - playing the actual game is fun. If it wasn't, you probably wouldn't care about deckbuilding either. Despite what people will endlessly repeat, there's skill involved in thinking about what you can do to make your opponent's potential answers the least effective possible. There's decisions to be made, and it's very satisfying to beat skilled opponents. Grinding the same deck for months on end isn't something I do anymore, but I played a very similar Midrange Paladin list from GvG until WotOG rotated a lot of the core cards out, and I felt an immense amount of satisfaction from how good I got with it. I knew exactly how to react to most boards, when to save my AoE, and what matchups I had to play as though I was an aggro deck. It feels very good to be very good at something.
For three - it's incredibly overstated how difficult it is to do well with weird homebrew jank. Is my N'Zoth Dude Paladin worse than a standard Paladin list? Almost certainly. It's going to take longer to get to Legend, and it'd probably be basically impossible to get into high Legend with it. Can I still make it to Legend with it? I admittedly don't know for sure because I've not actually tried since this expansion's meta has been terrible, but I'm willing to bet I could. It definitely did pretty OK for the two weeks I was playing Standard. I've made it to Legend with similarly wacky decks, though it has been a struggle at times. By playing off meta you're almost certainly sacrificing winrate, but that's why meta decks are meta to begin with. They're the best options, but they're not the only viable options. Just don't be pretend the meta doesn't exist - if your homebrew deck gets destroyed by Secret Pally maybe don't queue with it and expect to win a lot.
All that said, I do think Hearthstone would be a significantly better game without sites like HSReplay and ViciousSyndicate. If there weren't easily-accesible stats about what exactly the best performing cards are then you'd have a lot less of an idea as to what your opponent is playing, which makes the game more fun and skilful in general.
No. There, right off the bat, it's unquestionably incontrovertibly objectively false that what you just described is what makes TCGs fun. Not just because you conveniently mixed a boatload of crap that has no relation to each other (making a deck and experimenting with different archetypes, for instance) but because it's a pretty obvious fact that for the vast majority of players on ladder (i.e. not the minuscule whining minority that argues here or on reddit) the thing that is most fun...is winning. Simple as that. Winning has nothing to do with experimenting with different classes and archetypes or playstyles, let alone deck building. So there you go, your first commandment is already hogwash, off to a good start.
Having fun.
How is this anyone else's issue exactly?
No more fun than copying and pasting anything else is.
Not really, I look at a deck and think "is this good enough?" or "my meta pocket is such and such, should I drop this card and put tech x in?". Not putting thought in what cards are in a deck isn't fun or unfun, it's just what it is.
Ah, see, this is where you really show how far up your backside your head is. Spoilers for you, there are in fact players who love playing the same archetype and even the same deck for as long as it's playable. Why do you think reno priest has always been on ladder from standard to wild for how many years now?
I played for a year and change with a maly druid deck that was the very first deck I could afford to build for wild, and I built that deck specifically because I loved playing it. I was tired of it after a while and there are people who get tired of playing the same deck after like 5 games, even with winning scores, but there are plenty of players who have that deck and will jam it until it's not viable anymore. And I'm pretty certain they like it so, effectively, it's fun for them. Welcome to mother Earth, where people with opinions different from your own actually reside.
I wish the same, but Iksar loves the archetype, what can you do.
It has (exponentially, even, the change from Aluneth to Sayge made the deck much more board-centric and less focused on damage from hand than it was before) and there are.
Keep shoving your head up that hole, lad.
Presumably for a very long time as it's incredibly finely tuned, teching against it is almost counterproductive and it has almost no real counterplay to speak of, other than odd warrior, which is a mid-garbage deck that loses regularly to the other tier 1 decks.
Oh mate, I don't know, please tell me, not all of us are students of the game like you.
Ha, those imbeciles.
Hmm...before rigged faire game was printed, secret mage was low tier 2, if that and after it was printed it shot up to tier 1 and it's stayed there ever since...can't possibly be because the secret is better and lackey into RFG on turn 1 has something like a +20% spike in WR% for secret mages. Nah, I'll go back to netdecking, that's fine by me.
Oh there you go, if you had the answer all along why all the non-sequitur nonsense earlier? Why, you're such a tease.
Not like any of us asked you to drone on with your silly inconsequential points in any way, shape or form, matey.
I pity you, must be borderline sociopathic to have no empathy and no imagination to speak of. Please see a therapist if this condition persists.
To win games. I know, I know, imaging having fun by winning in a competitive game, but what can you do, lowly peasants are like that, they don't appreciate the high IQ and good taste needed to invest one's time in the superior art of deck building.
Well, bots do just that actually.
See, comparing deck building to being "half of the game" is a concept that, unlike you, I can understand but, simultaneously, I find hilariously stupid. I would also bet just about anything that the vast majority of the player base doesn't even remotely see it that way. And newsbreak for you, what the majority thinks is fairly important in many situations in life. In case the news hadn't yet delivered to your mansion, that is.
Also extremely conceited, pig-headed, arrogant and factually incorrect. Amongst other things.
Well, if you knew that from the start why did you go on that idiotic tirade then?
That sucks but it's your bloody problem, lad. I personally can empathise with you being tired of seeing the same decks over and over again, but, frankly put, I don't give a thimbful of jizz about it. It's a self-created problem that has several solutions:
Solution the First: you stop playing. There's no one holding you on the keyboard and making you press that battlenet icon. If the game is so painful to you, wtf do you keep playing it in the first place. Sunken cost fallacy? Good old memories? No other hobbies?
Solution the Second: you change the way you see things. This is obviously not easy (well, not as easy as just uninstalling hearthstone, at any rate) but changing the way you think is clearly doable. Realise that most people you meet on ladder are there to have their fun and they don't give a fuck about your fun, and rightly so. Most people netdeck, come to grips with it and find enjoyment in something else that isn't just trying to find somebody else running horridly unoptimal decks.
Solution the Third: since you clearly play wild...de-rank. I played at diamond until idk, September or thereabout, when life events and playing other games made me so bored and annoyed with hearthstone that I couldn't be arsed. I ended up not playing or playing just for achievements for so long that I ended up with a 2x multiplier and that was it. I've been climbing again the past months since I have finally fun with the game again and I can say, from my own experience as well as spectating other friends who are at those ranks, that on EU there are a lot of people in the lower ranks that bring their old decks or even people who, as you put it, homebrew their decks. There's a reason why I saw fewer of them from Plat upwards, but while there are some kingsbane rogues, secret mages, reno decks & co., you can find a veritable trove of homebrewers at silver/gold ranks, assuming your mmr belongs to those ranks. If your presumably massive ego can take the hit of playing at these ranks, your mental health will be much better for it.
This is just a personal hypothesis, but I'd wager you're playing against someone who can't deal with the massive anxiety and stress that ladder gives them and yet they like winning or trying good decks and so they do so in the only place that gives them a challenge while not having to deal with the stress of actually laddering with said deck and not burying their ego by playing against the innkeeper. I know Iksar had mentioned a ladder with just AI opponents, I wonder how it'd actually fare in the game.
Naturally, there are also just people who want to win and think that casual will (correctly) give them an easier time than ladder. Maybe they've had a big loss streak or maybe they just like griefing on the casual players, that's always a possibility.
Anyway, yeah, the fact that you couldn't understand something had already been demonstrated in excruciating detail in the previous parts of your post but there you go, another piece of reality for you to chew on.
---
The final point I'd like to make is that if you're actually good at this whole deckbuilding thing, then you will be virtually unrecognisable from a netdecker. The reason is obvious, and it's that there is usually one optimal way to build a deck and that most decks have a vast number of core cards within, which makes """deckbuilding""" basically amount to "swap 3 cards from this list someone used in high legend". Would you play secret mage without either weapon or Sayge? Of course not. Arcanologist? Mad scientist? Explosive runes? Kabal lackey? RFG, prince, valet? No, you'd be stupid to not put those cards in. So, in the end, what's left? Rinse and repeat for literally every archetype you can find. If you want to build a control mage, you'd be silly not to have ice block. And if it's a control deck, reno is priceless. And if reno's in then might as well put all other highlander cards. You want to build an elemental mage deck? We all already know the best cards and you'll have to skew the deck in order to accomodate for dk Jaina, because if you don't, the deck will be absolutely horrible.
There are very few people who can actually build their own decks that work and aren't only a "one time combo after 60 tries haha streamer special" type of thing. And even then, if the deck is veritably good, it'll go from being "homebrew" to meta and then it'll be normalised. Want an example? Handbuff paladin. Before last expansion, there was basically a guy playing it on high NA legend in wild. The deck wasn't bad by any means and the extent to which he "homebrew" it was limited (because this was basically mech handbuff without mechs, so a lof ot the cards were already core) and yet when it became clear how strong it was with the new expansion, a lot of people started playing it and it became meta and standardised. The only homebrew decks that aren't meta are bad ones and if you play bad decks you really should stop complaining about other people not doing the same just to satisfy your illogical wish for unoptimal """originality""". Cheers, hope you find some happiness within or without this game.
Is building a bicycle more fun for you than riding one? Even if it is, do you honestly not understand why people prefer to buy bicycles rather than build their own, creative and unique ones?
English is not my native language, so, with a high probability, mistakes were made.
just not true at all!
Yeah, pure luck is why the same players reach legend every month, the same core of pros win tournaments, etc. They're just luckier than you.
Some folks have a remarkable talent for self-delusion.
Ive been there OP. I would exclusively make my own decks and get pissed off when I lose to netdeckers. I ended up hating the game and quick for 2 years. Recently came back and have mostly enjoyed it. Wild is a my preferred format because I have most of the older cards, but it is so toxic right now with flamewaker mage and big priest being majority of opponents that I'm taking a break with standard and arena.
I actually got to legend for the first time after my return, and hit it on both accounts 3 months straight. I don't use netdecks still, some of my decks are very close, but either because im missing a few cards or I am teching against what I see mostly I have made some changes and they have worked pretty well. I am having a much better time, even when I do try to make something obscure like Reno Keleseth minion based priest deck or miracle beast hunter work.
you can also take advantage of some of the netdeckers. I lot of people playing t1 decks in my games have seriously misplayed with hunter, paladin and secret mage by only going face before they eventually lose the board and the game. Occassionally they are rewarded for that playstyle, but I am mostly able to turn those games and win.
One of my biggest issues besides flamewaker mage is the bots i see a lot of time on ranked ladder. those mother fuckers that just hero power and rope every turn for free exp are excruciating. sure, they are free wins, but in the time it takes to deal with that I would have played and possible won multiple games. I've seen those things at D3 before. they are not only getting free exp, but also free wins which is bullshit, and there is no way to report it ingame so they will continue to do it. At least the old pirate warrior bots you had a chance to lose, but if you lost it was only turn 5 anyways and games were only 2-3 minutes. these take like 10+ minutes against odd warrior bot that drops a taunt and hero power every turn..
Ah, there you have the old aged argument. There is skill allright which is defined as playing skillfully better mindless than the opponent.
We make our world significant through the courage of our questions and the depth of our answers.
I surely do share your opinion on that, it would be more refreshing and interesting video game if your builds were somewhat unique or at least bit different than others. On standard ive had success multiple seasons climbing to legends with off meta builds ease BUT those are still often copied, like 28/30 cards from some1 elses post. That doesn't satisfy me but I clearly dont have enough time to test off-meta decks and cards to make them work at least on semi-competitive manner.
But my cents is that every single video game is most often just (sadly) copying from others that have more time/knowledge. I havent played console games at all after guides came out and moved on more competitive online games. Though nowadays even those games like league of legends have tools/guides, which basically makes the game just based on mechanics and patterns you will do every single game. Before card statistics came available and deck win rates, Meta wasnt found that fast, which kept me playing longer period of time / expansions.
A question asking why people play Hearthstone in a forum on a niche website about Hearthstone, written by a member of said Hearthstone website whom has been playing Hearthstone since the beta of Hearthstone.
Suuuuuuuuuuure.
whats the point of discussing deckbuilding when theres a discover mechanic?
And theres viable decks that just consist of discovercards. So doesnt matter you discover simply all the time whats needed in that moment, no reason to put it in your deck. Like a Zephrys... A horrible bad card imo. That s how HS got horrible, it just ruins the fun to play against this...
No matter how hard Blizz try, this game is in dip shit. RnG was fun but to a certain degree, it is out of control now. Games are too polarized almost every game is decided by your opponent's class, mulligans and first few draws. Win more cards are everywhere. They keep printing too many fillers. 70-80% of the cards are unplayable for competitive level. As OP says net decks are too optimized so there is literally no chance to beat them with your own decks.
Everyone plays the same decks which I understand, everyone wants to win. Blizz can't do anything since game is designed as a casual mobile game. Skill in heartstone is the biggest joke. Of course you should know the basic (efficient trades, when to go face, play around few spells when you can etc.). In reality, your refined net decks and your luck win you the game.
Every game makes me feel like rolling a dice. Not fun anymore.
Dead but dreaming
The old - but the same people reach legend. So WHAT? It means nothing except that they choose to grind away with the busted deck of the month club. Thats it. Yes, some clowns also use those same decks and dont make it. Oh well. They didnt draw the right matchups or happen to be truly terrible players - I mean like the worst of the worst. In a casino it does NOT always equal out. Sometimes people win a little more than others. The game takes no skill. C'mon. Drop that garbage argument. I beat "card-back" holders all the time. Big deal. They dont impress me anymore than a bronze player. Not at all. I win when I draw good & the match up is good and lose when I dont. Same as Legend players. I dilly-dally at D5 or slightly higher every season. I *could* grind it out but its boring to play nothing but Palabarf or Secret Mage. No thanks. Or Dark-glare Warlock. The play quality is NO different at all at D5 than at S5 or G5. Sorry, facts. Time to accept that and just realize that the game is setup so decks win games, not players. Another fact. Only the worst of the worst players actually lose games due to stupid plays. That happens at low bronze only.
Show me a true legend run with a home brew or NON-cancer deck from these eh-hem pros. Then I'll believe your theory.
Literally go watch any Kibler stream then, all he plays is homebrew.
Okay, so then you admit that not everyone is netdecking the same OP deck and there is in fact variety
While the idea of "people can just play the best decks and get to legend with ease" is comforting for people like me, who play silly shit like Even decks exclusively in Wild Ladder - it doesn't really hold up to scrutiny does it? You said it yourself that it doesn't always work. Sometimes people play the best deck in the game and still don't make it to legend, then proceed to ignore it? Or just say they're terrible and move on? But that refutes the whole idea that the best decks automatically carry people into legend.
Because if that were true, then that'd be how it is. Legend would be packed with players that are between Silver to Platinum in skill level all facing each other with the best decks in the game. Matchup knowledge, individual player skill, hand reading, and good deck piloting are all things that matter in card games, even ones as broken as Hearthstone. That's why we see these decks everywhere on ladder, from Casual Queue to Bronze through Diamond - the best decks in the game are being played, yet somehow they haven't made it to legend. Better ignore that and chock it up to them getting bad matchups even though they're playing the decks that have the fewest number of bad matchups, a logical conclusion to come to since they're all tier 1.
It's not like I've ever made it to legend. I'd like to some day, but I wanna do it playing Even Hunter, or whatever other Hunter deck is fun enough to keep my interest on ladder. But when we look at the cream of the crop top level Hearthstone players, skill being a part of success in this game is hard to deny. Thijs for example sometimes blows me away with skillful play/thinking. Regis Killbin plays nothing but jank but still does alright because he's a really solid player, and he's not even a pro.
Of course there's skill required to do well in this game. You can admit that people who are "terrible, the worst of the worst" can't climb with the best decks, then there's clearly a scale of skill level that impacts success on ladder.
please don't bully my son
I don't know who you're playing, but I can tell you I see a vast difference in the quality of play between Bronze and Diamond. As in night and day difference (particularly if you wait to start laddering until the middle of the month, when most of the really good players have already moved to the higher rungs of the ladder). At the lower levels, I see countless examples of horrible misplays, complete failure to anticipate my next move or read my hand, and an absolute lack of awareness of what his win condition really is vis-a-vis my deck. There is far, far less of that at the higher ranks.
And even if I granted you your absurd statement WRT legend, it wouldn't hold for the pros at all. Have you ever actually watched these guys play? Again, in a mirror match, they would beat you (and me) EASILY 65% of the time. Easily. Sure, we might get some lucky draws and win some games, but the quality of play wouldn't be close. They simply have more skill at the game than we do. You're like one of those guys who says "I could easily beat a poker pro. All you gotta do is know the odds." Sure, sometimes a no-namer wins a big poker tourney, but there's a reason many of the same guys end up at the final table, and it ain't luck.
And, yeah, I'm sure you beat "card back" guys all the time. Just like I believe your daddy drives a Ferrari, you're a secret agent, and your girlfriend lives in France.
Standard is complete dog shit and the devs have no clue how to balance the game.
I don't know who is running Blizzard but dear lord have they run it into the ground over the past few years.
Saying there us no skill involved is demonstrably false. It’s completely stupid and it’s cringey as fuck that people keep saying it. Playing the game consistently well enough the reach high legend takes a lot of skill, saying otherwise just makes you look bitter, weird and/or incredibly dumb.
Hearthstone is like autotune, it can make everybody sound okay, but if they cannot actually sing they’re never going to be the next [insert pop reference here]. RNG and the advantage gained by playing on curve means that anybody can win if they netdeck a refined aggro list. But they’ll only make high legend if they put a lot of time into learning every aspect of the game and current meta.
I can only assume that those who claim the game takes no skill, even at the highest level, are the ones benefiting from Hearthstones autotune the most. As anyone who actually understands the game would have no problems seeing the clear divide between players who are truly good and those who aren’t.
bye enjoy your life free