Just play less card generation. Great nerf for overtuned mechanic
Card draw has always been stronger than card generation, and you often play card generation when you can't play card draw (like currently shaman and priest).
This entire thread is based on the idea that you should be able to read your opponent's hand the majority of the time, and that the "skill" of knowing the meta should be favored over the ability to react to emergent situations.
I completely disagree with that line of thought and oppose any attempt to express it mechanically.
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"Why, you never expected justice from a company, did you? They have neither a soul to lose nor a body to kick." -- Lady Saba Holland
Just play less card generation. Great nerf for overtuned mechanic
Card draw has always been stronger than card generation, and you often play card generation when you can't play card draw (like currently shaman and priest).
This whole thread is a joke.
At least you can't draw cards endlessly. Maybe I'm wrong, but in my opinion power level of card generation shouldn't be comparable to card draw to that extent so it's even used as a replacement of card draw
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
English is not my native language, so, with a high probability, mistakes were made.
I think the mechanic of revealing cards to your opponent is a good one if you are paying less for the card. For example: a 3 mana - draw 3 cards and reveal them to your opponent could be balanced and playable I think. You get premium card advantage at the expense of giving your opponent information. This could also work with card generation cards - I think it's a good idea to give it to some cards but not all.
The problem isn't that you can't play around generated cards, it's that card generators are too good nowadays. Compare Babbling Book to Wand Thief. For the insanely easy requirement of comboing a 1 mana card you're getting to Discover instead of randomly add it and a better body. Wand Thief is an insane upgrade on a card that was already in every Mage deck. Card generation has become too strong and too reliable, which means you see a lot more of it, which means it's exponentially harder to keep track of. If they've not played their turn 1 Babbling Book card until turn 7, you start playing around Flamestrike. If they generated a dragon from Draconic Studies, a spell from Renew, two minions off Raise Dead, four spells off Veilweaver, hit the Galakrond button twice, and played half of those you have to be a supercomputer to keep track of what sorts of effects they might have in their hand at that point. Seeing what they generate solves that problem, but I don't think that's the best solution. Discover was super beloved for ages, because it was a premium keyword that added variety and excitement. Generating cards needs to go back to being valued almost equally (but less) than drawing cards - that's the core issue here.
Classes that abuse "generated by LUL" mechanics usually play those cards same turn, so it doesnt really matter if you see whats being generated since they gonna play it anyways and in most cases, youre usually dead that turn.
On the other hand, if you have one or two card generators in deck, giving up info to previously mentioned broken classes is kinda unfair.
Just play less card generation. Great nerf for overtuned mechanic
Card draw has always been stronger than card generation, and you often play card generation when you can't play card draw (like currently shaman and priest).
This whole thread is a joke.
At least you can't draw cards endlessly. Maybe I'm wrong, but in my opinion power level of card generation shouldn't be comparable to card draw to that extent so it's even used as a replacement of card draw
What ? Rogue, mage, warlock, and warrior/druid to a lesser extent, can't draw cards endlessly ? Yes they can.
And if card gen shouldn't be used as a replacement for card draw, then... why should it be used ?
How is this still going? Its an awful idea and won't be implemented, for good reason. You aren't supposed to be able to know what's coming so you can play around it, that's stupid. Good players already do this I wish I could do it to their extent but I can't because I don't care enough to really learn everything. I don't know half the cards by name even. If I wanted to, I could learn it and get better at anticipating and second guessing what they've taken from a discover. Playing around something isn't because you know it's there, it's anticipating that it may be and thus, making plays around that possibility. Sometimes this is easier than others, such as reading your opponents deck and knowing they are going to have X card and they will likely use it on X turn, so you play with that in mind.
They could potentially tone down the amount of discover, although I personally really like it but this is a terrible, terrible idea. You aren't thinking it will be good for the game, you're thinking it will be good for YOU.
Do any other card games do this outside of niche effects and situations such as physical games and showing you haven't cheated?
Heck, poker would be way better for me and a ton fairer from my perspective if I got to see everyone's starting hand or at least the additional cards. It's not fair that they always seem to have exactly the right hand to beat me or I fold and find out my hand would have won! NOT FAIR! Change the rules to benefit me please! This isn't a direct analogy, just tongue in cheek.
Oh look, another priest hate post disguised as a silly discussion on seeing your opponents discovers (a terrible idea btw). Card generation is part of the game. You shouldnt be able to "read" your opponents cards though, that's a silly concept.
How is this still going? Its an awful idea and won't be implemented, for good reason. You aren't supposed to be able to know what's coming so you can play around it, that's stupid. Good players already do this I wish I could do it to their extent but I can't because I don't care enough to really learn everything. I don't know half the cards by name even. If I wanted to, I could learn it and get better at anticipating and second guessing what they've taken from a discover. Playing around something isn't because you know it's there, it's anticipating that it may be and thus, making plays around that possibility. Sometimes this is easier than others, such as reading your opponents deck and knowing they are going to have X card and they will likely use it on X turn, so you play with that in mind.
They could potentially tone down the amount of discover, although I personally really like it but this is a terrible, terrible idea. You aren't thinking it will be good for the game, you're thinking it will be good for YOU.
Do any other card games do this outside of niche effects and situations such as physical games and showing you haven't cheated?
Heck, poker would be way better for me and a ton fairer from my perspective if I got to see everyone's starting hand or at least the additional cards. It's not fair that they always seem to have exactly the right hand to beat me or I fold and find out my hand would have won! NOT FAIR! Change the rules to benefit me please! This isn't a direct analogy, just tongue in cheek.
There was an instructive quote in yesterday's Hearthstone Top Decks article which addressed the relationship between random generation and skill:
"As randomness in the game increases, the skill cap becomes lower. It becomes impossible to play around all the random outcomes, and the edge you can gain in the game becomes smaller."
I didn't see many posters who were interested in the idea say it was because it would make things better for them personally. Some people like the idea, some don't. Nothing wrong with having a discussion.
Oh look, another priest hate post disguised as a silly discussion on seeing your opponents discovers (a terrible idea btw). Card generation is part of the game. You shouldnt be able to "read" your opponents cards though, that's a silly concept.
Subversive priest hate? Don't be ridiculous. Priest is one of the classes I've played the most since FitB launched.
How is this still going? Its an awful idea and won't be implemented, for good reason. You aren't supposed to be able to know what's coming so you can play around it, that's stupid. Good players already do this I wish I could do it to their extent but I can't because I don't care enough to really learn everything. I don't know half the cards by name even. If I wanted to, I could learn it and get better at anticipating and second guessing what they've taken from a discover. Playing around something isn't because you know it's there, it's anticipating that it may be and thus, making plays around that possibility. Sometimes this is easier than others, such as reading your opponents deck and knowing they are going to have X card and they will likely use it on X turn, so you play with that in mind.
They could potentially tone down the amount of discover, although I personally really like it but this is a terrible, terrible idea. You aren't thinking it will be good for the game, you're thinking it will be good for YOU.
Do any other card games do this outside of niche effects and situations such as physical games and showing you haven't cheated?
Heck, poker would be way better for me and a ton fairer from my perspective if I got to see everyone's starting hand or at least the additional cards. It's not fair that they always seem to have exactly the right hand to beat me or I fold and find out my hand would have won! NOT FAIR! Change the rules to benefit me please! This isn't a direct analogy, just tongue in cheek.
There was an instructive quote in yesterday's Hearthstone Top Decks article which addressed the relationship between random generation and skill:
"As randomness in the game increases, the skill cap becomes lower. It becomes impossible to play around all the random outcomes, and the edge you can gain in the game becomes smaller."
I didn't see many posters who were interested in the idea say it was because it would make things better for them personally. Some people like the idea, some don't. Nothing wrong with having a discussion.
Yeah that's fair, discuss away. It really isn't up to me what others can or can't discuss so I shouldn't have really gone there.
How is this still going? Its an awful idea and won't be implemented, for good reason. You aren't supposed to be able to know what's coming so you can play around it, that's stupid. Good players already do this I wish I could do it to their extent but I can't because I don't care enough to really learn everything. I don't know half the cards by name even. If I wanted to, I could learn it and get better at anticipating and second guessing what they've taken from a discover. Playing around something isn't because you know it's there, it's anticipating that it may be and thus, making plays around that possibility. Sometimes this is easier than others, such as reading your opponents deck and knowing they are going to have X card and they will likely use it on X turn, so you play with that in mind.
They could potentially tone down the amount of discover, although I personally really like it but this is a terrible, terrible idea. You aren't thinking it will be good for the game, you're thinking it will be good for YOU.
Do any other card games do this outside of niche effects and situations such as physical games and showing you haven't cheated?
Heck, poker would be way better for me and a ton fairer from my perspective if I got to see everyone's starting hand or at least the additional cards. It's not fair that they always seem to have exactly the right hand to beat me or I fold and find out my hand would have won! NOT FAIR! Change the rules to benefit me please! This isn't a direct analogy, just tongue in cheek.
There was an instructive quote in yesterday's Hearthstone Top Decks article which addressed the relationship between random generation and skill:
"As randomness in the game increases, the skill cap becomes lower. It becomes impossible to play around all the random outcomes, and the edge you can gain in the game becomes smaller."
I didn't see many posters who were interested in the idea say it was because it would make things better for them personally. Some people like the idea, some don't. Nothing wrong with having a discussion.
Yeah that's fair, discuss away. It really isn't up to me what others can or can't discuss so I shouldn't have really gone there.
Going through the thread again, it's clearer to me that it probably isn't a good (or popular) idea. But it was interesting to mull over for a day or two and see what others thought.
I mean, you should be aware of what the opponent is doing with it's cards and keep an eye on them. Them not playing them and keeping on their hands gives you HUGE hints of what the card is. Either is garbage, or is something for an specific scenario. Then you can test scenarios.
What you're implying would kill the fun of this game. Let's face it, RNG is fun. Of course it isn't when it's bad for you lol, but that's the deal we have to accept for playing Hearthstone.
Not sure how much of the player base is on mobile, but it's probably a significant number.
They still don't have access to deck trackers which makes it very difficult to keep track of cards, especially when, say, a priest pops off with a monster Sethekk turn.
Always seems a bit odd that some players have this massive advantage over others.
I don't use deck tracker. I don't like it. I prefer tracking what my opponent has with my own eyes. But I take your point, in mobile is more difficult. But lets be honest, mobile player can't be taken as the playerbase to look at in a competetive game. Mobile players usually are low ranks and casuals.
What ? Rogue, mage, warlock, and warrior/druid to a lesser extent, can't draw cards endlessly ? Yes they can.
And if card gen shouldn't be used as a replacement for card draw, then... why should it be used ?
They can draw their deck and that's it, resources over, card draw is dead in fatigue. It's fine when it used to generate something useful here and there, not as a way to be more greedy than opponent or even a win condition.
"As randomness in the game increases, the skill cap becomes lower. It becomes impossible to play around all the random outcomes, and the edge you can gain in the game becomes smaller."
You forget more important part, "When extraordinarily strong random outcomes exist, games are simply decided by them. It does not matter what the opposing player does when one player rolls high enough". Without that It's like saying "Poker is not a game of skill, just RNG". Playing around something is a narrow definition of skill. What about roughly predicting which random outcomes you should play around and which you shouldn't care because you win or lose regardless, isn't it harder then just learning how every card works? It decreases tactics (playing around exact cards) and increases strategy (playing around the entire picture). I'm pretty sure Mad Bomber requires more skill to play correctly rather than Bloodfen Raptor. Randomness by itself is problematic only when swings are too high, not in general.
Thanks for the link btw, next statement is what I tried to say to PetiteMouche: "When significant resource generation exists, decks that use it get to play with near-infinite resources, which drives slow decks out of the meta as they cannot keep up. This makes the meta faster and more aggressive as a response".
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
English is not my native language, so, with a high probability, mistakes were made.
What ? Rogue, mage, warlock, and warrior/druid to a lesser extent, can't draw cards endlessly ? Yes they can.
And if card gen shouldn't be used as a replacement for card draw, then... why should it be used ?
They can draw their deck and that's it, resources over, card draw is dead in fatigue. It's fine when it used to generate something useful here and there, not as a way to be more greedy than opponent or even a win condition.
"As randomness in the game increases, the skill cap becomes lower. It becomes impossible to play around all the random outcomes, and the edge you can gain in the game becomes smaller."
You forget more important part, "When extraordinarily strong random outcomes exist, games are simply decided by them. It does not matter what the opposing player does when one player rolls high enough". Without that It's like saying "Poker is not a game of skill, just RNG". Playing around something is a narrow definition of skill. What about roughly predicting which random outcomes you should play around and which you shouldn't care because you win or lose regardless, isn't it harder then just learning how every card works? It decreases tactics (playing around exact cards) and increases strategy (playing around the entire picture). I'm pretty sure Mad Bomber requires more skill to play correctly rather than Bloodfen Raptor. Randomness by itself is problematic only when swings are too high, not in general.
Thanks for the link btw, next statement is what I tried to say to PetiteMouche: "When significant resource generation exists, decks that use it get to play with near-infinite resources, which drives slow decks out of the meta as they cannot keep up. This makes the meta faster and more aggressive as a response".
I haven't said anything class or meta specific you careful reader. By "they" I meant decks that don't rely on card generation heavily, "card draw vs card generation" comparison, not "class X vs class Y".
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
English is not my native language, so, with a high probability, mistakes were made.
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Just play less card generation. Great nerf for overtuned mechanic
English is not my native language, so, with a high probability, mistakes were made.
Card draw has always been stronger than card generation, and you often play card generation when you can't play card draw (like currently shaman and priest).
This whole thread is a joke.
I just want to know what card I turned into a banana ffs
such salt much BM.
This entire thread is based on the idea that you should be able to read your opponent's hand the majority of the time, and that the "skill" of knowing the meta should be favored over the ability to react to emergent situations.
I completely disagree with that line of thought and oppose any attempt to express it mechanically.
"Why, you never expected justice from a company, did you? They have neither a soul to lose nor a body to kick." -- Lady Saba Holland
At least you can't draw cards endlessly. Maybe I'm wrong, but in my opinion power level of card generation shouldn't be comparable to card draw to that extent so it's even used as a replacement of card draw
English is not my native language, so, with a high probability, mistakes were made.
I think the mechanic of revealing cards to your opponent is a good one if you are paying less for the card. For example: a 3 mana - draw 3 cards and reveal them to your opponent could be balanced and playable I think. You get premium card advantage at the expense of giving your opponent information. This could also work with card generation cards - I think it's a good idea to give it to some cards but not all.
The problem isn't that you can't play around generated cards, it's that card generators are too good nowadays. Compare Babbling Book to Wand Thief. For the insanely easy requirement of comboing a 1 mana card you're getting to Discover instead of randomly add it and a better body. Wand Thief is an insane upgrade on a card that was already in every Mage deck. Card generation has become too strong and too reliable, which means you see a lot more of it, which means it's exponentially harder to keep track of. If they've not played their turn 1 Babbling Book card until turn 7, you start playing around Flamestrike. If they generated a dragon from Draconic Studies, a spell from Renew, two minions off Raise Dead, four spells off Veilweaver, hit the Galakrond button twice, and played half of those you have to be a supercomputer to keep track of what sorts of effects they might have in their hand at that point. Seeing what they generate solves that problem, but I don't think that's the best solution. Discover was super beloved for ages, because it was a premium keyword that added variety and excitement. Generating cards needs to go back to being valued almost equally (but less) than drawing cards - that's the core issue here.
Classes that abuse "generated by LUL" mechanics usually play those cards same turn, so it doesnt really matter if you see whats being generated since they gonna play it anyways and in most cases, youre usually dead that turn.
On the other hand, if you have one or two card generators in deck, giving up info to previously mentioned broken classes is kinda unfair.
What ? Rogue, mage, warlock, and warrior/druid to a lesser extent, can't draw cards endlessly ? Yes they can.
And if card gen shouldn't be used as a replacement for card draw, then... why should it be used ?
How is this still going? Its an awful idea and won't be implemented, for good reason. You aren't supposed to be able to know what's coming so you can play around it, that's stupid. Good players already do this I wish I could do it to their extent but I can't because I don't care enough to really learn everything. I don't know half the cards by name even. If I wanted to, I could learn it and get better at anticipating and second guessing what they've taken from a discover. Playing around something isn't because you know it's there, it's anticipating that it may be and thus, making plays around that possibility. Sometimes this is easier than others, such as reading your opponents deck and knowing they are going to have X card and they will likely use it on X turn, so you play with that in mind.
They could potentially tone down the amount of discover, although I personally really like it but this is a terrible, terrible idea. You aren't thinking it will be good for the game, you're thinking it will be good for YOU.
Do any other card games do this outside of niche effects and situations such as physical games and showing you haven't cheated?
Heck, poker would be way better for me and a ton fairer from my perspective if I got to see everyone's starting hand or at least the additional cards. It's not fair that they always seem to have exactly the right hand to beat me or I fold and find out my hand would have won! NOT FAIR! Change the rules to benefit me please! This isn't a direct analogy, just tongue in cheek.
Oh look, another priest hate post disguised as a silly discussion on seeing your opponents discovers (a terrible idea btw). Card generation is part of the game. You shouldnt be able to "read" your opponents cards though, that's a silly concept.
There was an instructive quote in yesterday's Hearthstone Top Decks article which addressed the relationship between random generation and skill:
"As randomness in the game increases, the skill cap becomes lower. It becomes impossible to play around all the random outcomes, and the edge you can gain in the game becomes smaller."
https://www.hearthstonetopdecks.com/is-random-rng-resource-generation-in-hearthstone-too-strong/
I didn't see many posters who were interested in the idea say it was because it would make things better for them personally. Some people like the idea, some don't. Nothing wrong with having a discussion.
Subversive priest hate? Don't be ridiculous. Priest is one of the classes I've played the most since FitB launched.
Yeah that's fair, discuss away. It really isn't up to me what others can or can't discuss so I shouldn't have really gone there.
Chain discoveries still exist, albeit to a lesser extent. For example, Palm Reading into Renew into Palm Reading...
Going through the thread again, it's clearer to me that it probably isn't a good (or popular) idea. But it was interesting to mull over for a day or two and see what others thought.
I don't use deck tracker. I don't like it. I prefer tracking what my opponent has with my own eyes. But I take your point, in mobile is more difficult. But lets be honest, mobile player can't be taken as the playerbase to look at in a competetive game. Mobile players usually are low ranks and casuals.
They can draw their deck and that's it, resources over, card draw is dead in fatigue. It's fine when it used to generate something useful here and there, not as a way to be more greedy than opponent or even a win condition.
You forget more important part, "When extraordinarily strong random outcomes exist, games are simply decided by them. It does not matter what the opposing player does when one player rolls high enough". Without that It's like saying "Poker is not a game of skill, just RNG".
Playing around something is a narrow definition of skill. What about roughly predicting which random outcomes you should play around and which you shouldn't care because you win or lose regardless, isn't it harder then just learning how every card works? It decreases tactics (playing around exact cards) and increases strategy (playing around the entire picture). I'm pretty sure Mad Bomber requires more skill to play correctly rather than Bloodfen Raptor. Randomness by itself is problematic only when swings are too high, not in general.
Thanks for the link btw, next statement is what I tried to say to PetiteMouche: "When significant resource generation exists, decks that use it get to play with near-infinite resources, which drives slow decks out of the meta as they cannot keep up. This makes the meta faster and more aggressive as a response".
English is not my native language, so, with a high probability, mistakes were made.
Those classes have card generation too you noob
I haven't said anything class or meta specific you careful reader. By "they" I meant decks that don't rely on card generation heavily, "card draw vs card generation" comparison, not "class X vs class Y".
English is not my native language, so, with a high probability, mistakes were made.