The reason aggro becomes very common in this meta is because board controls are either missing or lacking in power. Like, seriously, this card pool in this case is borderline EMBARRASSING. Look at Druid. Literally the only removal it has are Lunar Eclipse and Bogbeam, both of them only deal 3 damage. Even Hunter has more and better board controls. Another point, look at Rancor. The card is terrible against aggro, despite what its effect suggests. The card just costs too much, and yes, it gives Armor, but it hits your minions as well, and most aggro minions have more than 2 Health on turn 4, so the Armor effect is pretty much useless, anyway. You probably will only gain 2 to 8 Armor most of the time. Other bad board control cards that I am aware of are Lightning Storm, Sigil of Flame, Bola Shot, Molten Blast, Chain Lightning (Rank 1), Unstable Felbolt. Board control cards need to be buffed. With 4 Mana, you can destroy a minion. That means you should be able to deal around 10 damage to a minion with just 3 Mana, and 12 damage to a minion with 4. For board clears, Twisting Nether destroys all minions with 8 Mana, so, the same as single attack, an 8 Mana board clear card should be able to deal up to 12 damage to all minions, 7 Mana board clear should be able to deal around 10 damage to all minions, and it scales down like that, though 1-3 Cost board clears should deal damage equal to its Cost to still make aggro viable. And last thing, I'd like to see more board clear cards in the next expansion or two.
2. High Cost Minions Rework
High cost minions are pretty weak right now. My #1 suggestions will kill them immediately. So, it's just fair to rework higher Cost minions as well. Although, that is not the primary reason why I want high cost minions reworked. The primary reason is that they have higher risk to play. Start with 5-7 Mana minions. Hearthstone has a quite consistent standard stat distribution for 3-7 Cost minions, in which a minion can only have stats equal to its Cost and +1/+1. However, since 4 Mana can destroy a minion completely, minions that cost more than 4 Mana should have higher stat distribution to make up for it. For 5-6 Cost, they should have +2/+2 instead; for 7 Mana, +3/+3. For 8 Cost, it should be something like +4/+4 or +5/+5. For 9-10 Cost, the stats should be something like 15/15 or even 20/20 for 10 Cost. Lastly, of course this is only for minions with raw stats and no effect. For minions with effects, just adjust the stats.
Another greedy player who wants to nuke board-centric aggro away from existence.
Another player who fails to understand class identity, that druid is meant to be bad with interacting with the board, hunter is meant to be bad in board clears, etc.
But this post does have something new! It offers the game in which ramp druids will annihilate everyone by dropping huge minions on turn 3-4
It‘s true that board clears are mostly weak, but if you give them all a board clear that uses the same scale you just could give every class a card named „board clear: deal X dmg to all enemy minions“ it would be your suggestion but it would be a very boring game. Even for me as a control player.
Like Strongpoint said: class identities are a thing and they try to maintain that. The reason that there were such cards before is because they „lost track“ of this idea and now they came back to it
Another greedy player who wants to nuke board-centric aggro away from existence.
Another player who fails to understand class identity, that druid is meant to be bad with interacting with the board, hunter is meant to be bad in board clears, etc.
But this post does have something new! It offers the game in which ramp druids will annihilate everyone by dropping huge minions on turn 3-4
I agree with a lot of things on the original post, but I have to disagree about Sigil of Flame. It's a powerful anti-aggro tool that doesn't see play because it just doesn't fit in most DH archetypes (and anyway DH is in a bad spot right now). But when timed right, the effect is powerful. Not for the AOE damage it provides, but for forcing the enemy to stop developing on the board and effectively skipping a turn. Playing this for example on t5 and getting to play a t6 Skull with an empty board and no threats is golden for a slow/control DH deck
Lightning Storm isn't a bad card at all, it's the class that sucks, or rather control shaman in standard.
And Felbolt is completely fine. The issue there is that Warlock has other tools/packages that you can't cut from the control deck like soul fragment cards. 3 damage for 1 mana is actually very efficient.
Your suggestions make very little sense tbh. You want to buff bigger minions, but at the same time, buff the damage of bigger board clears. How does that change the game? Big slow minions would still be terrible (actually even more so) and board clears would be very costly or inefficient in that you want them against aggro, but not cost more than 5, and you don't want 10 clears in one deck because these are dead cards in control/combo matchups.
The problem for control in many classes is neither too few stats nor too few removal tools. The problem, at least in standard, is the lack of win conditions. That's why classes that have some win conditions past surviving aggro decks are still fine, though not tier 1 material. And Druid isn't meant to be a control class anyway.
Too much board clears forces aggro decks to run stickier and bigger minions and become more tempo oriented, at which point their matchups against control become more favorable. Like you said, Rancor is not strong enough to kill aggro boards anymore, and that's an issue. The fix isn't stronger removal, the fix is to limit midrange tools, give aggro decks more access to burn, and give them less card draw and resource generation.
I like how this guy says that board clears are too weak because minions have too much health, then proceeds to argue that we need to give minions more health.
I like how this guy says that board clears are too weak because minions have too much health, then proceeds to argue that we need to give minions more health.
This comment is ignorant. Let me show you all that's wrong with this comment.
1. Board clears are too weak because they're weak for its Cost, NOT because minions have too much Health.
2. We need to give HIGHER COST MINIONS more Health (and Attack), NOT ALL minions.
Another greedy player who wants to nuke board-centric aggro away from existence.
Another player who fails to understand class identity, that druid is meant to be bad with interacting with the board, hunter is meant to be bad in board clears, etc.
But this post does have something new! It offers the game in which ramp druids will annihilate everyone by dropping huge minions on turn 3-4
Another greedy player who wants to nuke board-centric aggro away from existence.
Another player who fails to understand class identity, that druid is meant to be bad with interacting with the board, hunter is meant to be bad in board clears, etc.
But this post does have something new! It offers the game in which ramp druids will annihilate everyone by dropping huge minions on turn 3-4
Another greedy player who wants to nuke board-centric aggro away from existence.
Another player who fails to understand class identity, that druid is meant to be bad with interacting with the board, hunter is meant to be bad in board clears, etc.
But this post does have something new! It offers the game in which ramp druids will annihilate everyone by dropping huge minions on turn 3-4
Strengths: Mana generation, giant minions, minion swarms, card draw, Beasts
Weaknesses: Destroying big minions, board clear.
Thank you for actually showing actual proof. I appreciate it, genuinely.
However, many cards violate the identities already. For example, Conditioning (Rank 1) for Warrior and Man'ari Mosher for Warlock.
I agree, in some (lots) of cases blizzard just outright ignored their own class identity guide lines.
Warlock - big healing. We all know they didn't stick to that one.
Hunter - card draw. Anyone notice hunters having card draw problems at the moment?
They did stick to druids not having board clear though, although I would say animal companions is a pretty effective board clear most of the time with the right minions.
Another greedy player who wants to nuke board-centric aggro away from existence.
Another player who fails to understand class identity, that druid is meant to be bad with interacting with the board, hunter is meant to be bad in board clears, etc.
But this post does have something new! It offers the game in which ramp druids will annihilate everyone by dropping huge minions on turn 3-4
just because someone does not agree with a shitty design choice does not mean they fail to understand something, stop being so arrogant.. class idendity is a huge failure and every player who prober understanding of the game like OP knows this
The reason aggro becomes very common in this meta is because board controls are either missing or lacking in power. Like, seriously, this card pool in this case is borderline EMBARRASSING. Look at Druid. Literally the only removal it has are Lunar Eclipse and Bogbeam, both of them only deal 3 damage. Even Hunter has more and better board controls. Another point, look at Rancor. The card is terrible against aggro, despite what its effect suggests. The card just costs too much, and yes, it gives Armor, but it hits your minions as well, and most aggro minions have more than 2 Health on turn 4, so the Armor effect is pretty much useless, anyway. You probably will only gain 2 to 8 Armor most of the time. Other bad board control cards that I am aware of are Lightning Storm, Sigil of Flame, Bola Shot, Molten Blast, Chain Lightning (Rank 1), Unstable Felbolt. Board control cards need to be buffed. With 4 Mana, you can destroy a minion. That means you should be able to deal around 10 damage to a minion with just 3 Mana, and 12 damage to a minion with 4. For board clears, Twisting Nether destroys all minions with 8 Mana, so, the same as single attack, an 8 Mana board clear card should be able to deal up to 12 damage to all minions, 7 Mana board clear should be able to deal around 10 damage to all minions, and it scales down like that, though 1-3 Cost board clears should deal damage equal to its Cost to still make aggro viable. And last thing, I'd like to see more board clear cards in the next expansion or two.
2. High Cost Minions Rework
High cost minions are pretty weak right now. My #1 suggestions will kill them immediately. So, it's just fair to rework higher Cost minions as well. Although, that is not the primary reason why I want high cost minions reworked. The primary reason is that they have higher risk to play. Start with 5-7 Mana minions. Hearthstone has a quite consistent standard stat distribution for 3-7 Cost minions, in which a minion can only have stats equal to its Cost and +1/+1. However, since 4 Mana can destroy a minion completely, minions that cost more than 4 Mana should have higher stat distribution to make up for it. For 5-6 Cost, they should have +2/+2 instead; for 7 Mana, +3/+3. For 8 Cost, it should be something like +4/+4 or +5/+5. For 9-10 Cost, the stats should be something like 15/15 or even 20/20 for 10 Cost. Lastly, of course this is only for minions with raw stats and no effect. For minions with effects, just adjust the stats.
if they set the health to 40 instead of 30 I think that would be a good change if you consider running a higher curve a good change... I think it is about time, the 30 hp hero health was based around classic cards and we see how outdated they are now
Warlock's removals are indeed overcosted. With all this aggro power creep over the years, he just can't keep up, and by comparing him to Priest (who can), you can easily see why.
Apotheosis + Blademaster Samuro can clear mid-size board and heal him up to 24 HP, also leaving lifesteal minion with high HP on board.
On top of that, Priest can discover a lot of cards (which gives him flexibility), copy them and mana cheat.
Being able to remove single big threat on turn 2 or bunch of big dudes on turn 4 is a huge game changer. Hysteria can sometimes do the job, but only if opponent is not smart enough to play around it.
Warlock used to have Defile, later replaced by Dark Skies and Plague of Flames, but after the rotation, he did not receive any replacement, and that's the issue.
Cascading Disaster is not over costed, especially when you can easily play 4 in one game.
To destroy 3 RANDOM minions, you have to play this card not earlier than on turn 7, only if it has been in your hand for at least 2 previous turns (5 and 6), and only if you played 2 cards in a row, not cheaper than 5 mana.
It doesn't sound that good anymore, does it? In terms of removing stuff, it's basically weaker Twisting Nether, that you can play 1 turn earlier, but only after meeting very strict conditions (if you want to get full value). While not currupted, it's worse Deadly Shot.
Yes, it can be very powerful (especially when you can cheat it out for 0 mana), but only in the very late game (turn 10+), while Warlock lacks power in early and mid game. Kazakus, Golem Shaper is currently much better tool against aggro-tempo meta.
Last thing, nobody is saying Ramp Druid is a balanced deck. It's a part of the reason why people play aggro, alongside Control Warlock.
Oh... You think that greed = making your deck full of big dumb idiots... Greed is trying to win solely on value while ignoring tempo. Board wipes (especially one-sided) are value cards. They are made for 1 for 2(3\4\5)ing your opponent.
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1. Board Control Rework
The reason aggro becomes very common in this meta is because board controls are either missing or lacking in power. Like, seriously, this card pool in this case is borderline EMBARRASSING. Look at Druid. Literally the only removal it has are Lunar Eclipse and Bogbeam, both of them only deal 3 damage. Even Hunter has more and better board controls. Another point, look at Rancor. The card is terrible against aggro, despite what its effect suggests. The card just costs too much, and yes, it gives Armor, but it hits your minions as well, and most aggro minions have more than 2 Health on turn 4, so the Armor effect is pretty much useless, anyway. You probably will only gain 2 to 8 Armor most of the time. Other bad board control cards that I am aware of are Lightning Storm, Sigil of Flame, Bola Shot, Molten Blast, Chain Lightning (Rank 1), Unstable Felbolt. Board control cards need to be buffed. With 4 Mana, you can destroy a minion. That means you should be able to deal around 10 damage to a minion with just 3 Mana, and 12 damage to a minion with 4. For board clears, Twisting Nether destroys all minions with 8 Mana, so, the same as single attack, an 8 Mana board clear card should be able to deal up to 12 damage to all minions, 7 Mana board clear should be able to deal around 10 damage to all minions, and it scales down like that, though 1-3 Cost board clears should deal damage equal to its Cost to still make aggro viable. And last thing, I'd like to see more board clear cards in the next expansion or two.
2. High Cost Minions Rework
High cost minions are pretty weak right now. My #1 suggestions will kill them immediately. So, it's just fair to rework higher Cost minions as well. Although, that is not the primary reason why I want high cost minions reworked. The primary reason is that they have higher risk to play. Start with 5-7 Mana minions. Hearthstone has a quite consistent standard stat distribution for 3-7 Cost minions, in which a minion can only have stats equal to its Cost and +1/+1. However, since 4 Mana can destroy a minion completely, minions that cost more than 4 Mana should have higher stat distribution to make up for it. For 5-6 Cost, they should have +2/+2 instead; for 7 Mana, +3/+3. For 8 Cost, it should be something like +4/+4 or +5/+5. For 9-10 Cost, the stats should be something like 15/15 or even 20/20 for 10 Cost. Lastly, of course this is only for minions with raw stats and no effect. For minions with effects, just adjust the stats.
Another greedy player who wants to nuke board-centric aggro away from existence.
Another player who fails to understand class identity, that druid is meant to be bad with interacting with the board, hunter is meant to be bad in board clears, etc.
But this post does have something new! It offers the game in which ramp druids will annihilate everyone by dropping huge minions on turn 3-4
It‘s true that board clears are mostly weak, but if you give them all a board clear that uses the same scale you just could give every class a card named „board clear: deal X dmg to all enemy minions“ it would be your suggestion but it would be a very boring game. Even for me as a control player.
Like Strongpoint said: class identities are a thing and they try to maintain that. The reason that there were such cards before is because they „lost track“ of this idea and now they came back to it
"Druid is meant to be bad with the board"
Show me where Blizzard says this.
Poison Seeds, Swipe, Starfall, Explosive Trap would like to disagree with you.
Board control cards can exist, regardless of class. They don't violate class' identity.
"Greedy player"
Because greedy players want stronger board clears, right? Board clears DESTROY greedy players. Greedy players hate strong board clears. Ramp Druid hates Twisting Nether.
Last thing, nobody is saying Ramp Druid is a balanced deck. It's a part of the reason why people play aggro, alongside Control Warlock.
I agree with a lot of things on the original post, but I have to disagree about Sigil of Flame. It's a powerful anti-aggro tool that doesn't see play because it just doesn't fit in most DH archetypes (and anyway DH is in a bad spot right now). But when timed right, the effect is powerful. Not for the AOE damage it provides, but for forcing the enemy to stop developing on the board and effectively skipping a turn. Playing this for example on t5 and getting to play a t6 Skull with an empty board and no threats is golden for a slow/control DH deck
Lightning Storm isn't a bad card at all, it's the class that sucks, or rather control shaman in standard.
And Felbolt is completely fine. The issue there is that Warlock has other tools/packages that you can't cut from the control deck like soul fragment cards. 3 damage for 1 mana is actually very efficient.
Your suggestions make very little sense tbh. You want to buff bigger minions, but at the same time, buff the damage of bigger board clears. How does that change the game? Big slow minions would still be terrible (actually even more so) and board clears would be very costly or inefficient in that you want them against aggro, but not cost more than 5, and you don't want 10 clears in one deck because these are dead cards in control/combo matchups.
The problem for control in many classes is neither too few stats nor too few removal tools. The problem, at least in standard, is the lack of win conditions. That's why classes that have some win conditions past surviving aggro decks are still fine, though not tier 1 material. And Druid isn't meant to be a control class anyway.
Too much board clears forces aggro decks to run stickier and bigger minions and become more tempo oriented, at which point their matchups against control become more favorable. Like you said, Rancor is not strong enough to kill aggro boards anymore, and that's an issue. The fix isn't stronger removal, the fix is to limit midrange tools, give aggro decks more access to burn, and give them less card draw and resource generation.
I like how this guy says that board clears are too weak because minions have too much health, then proceeds to argue that we need to give minions more health.
Fuhgeddaboudit
This comment is ignorant. Let me show you all that's wrong with this comment.
1. Board clears are too weak because they're weak for its Cost, NOT because minions have too much Health.
2. We need to give HIGHER COST MINIONS more Health (and Attack), NOT ALL minions.
https://dotesports.com/hearthstone/news/blizzard-outlines-class-identity-in-hearthstone
Druid
Strengths: Mana generation, giant minions, minion swarms, card draw, Beasts
Weaknesses: Destroying big minions, board clear.
Thank you for actually showing actual proof. I appreciate it, genuinely.
However, many cards violate the identities already. For example, Conditioning (Rank 1) for Warrior and Man'ari Mosher for Warlock.
I agree, in some (lots) of cases blizzard just outright ignored their own class identity guide lines.
Warlock - big healing. We all know they didn't stick to that one.
Hunter - card draw. Anyone notice hunters having card draw problems at the moment?
They did stick to druids not having board clear though, although I would say animal companions is a pretty effective board clear most of the time with the right minions.
No rule without exceptions...
I would say an exception would be the odd card that defies the rule. Warlock healing does a bit more than just defy the rule.
just because someone does not agree with a shitty design choice does not mean they fail to understand something, stop being so arrogant.. class idendity is a huge failure and every player who prober understanding of the game like OP knows this
if they set the health to 40 instead of 30 I think that would be a good change if you consider running a higher curve a good change... I think it is about time, the 30 hp hero health was based around classic cards and we see how outdated they are now
Warlock's removals are indeed overcosted. With all this aggro power creep over the years, he just can't keep up, and by comparing him to Priest (who can), you can easily see why.
On top of that, Priest can discover a lot of cards (which gives him flexibility), copy them and mana cheat.
Being able to remove single big threat on turn 2 or bunch of big dudes on turn 4 is a huge game changer. Hysteria can sometimes do the job, but only if opponent is not smart enough to play around it.
Warlock used to have Defile, later replaced by Dark Skies and Plague of Flames, but after the rotation, he did not receive any replacement, and that's the issue.
Cascading Disaster is not over costed, especially when you can easily play 4 in one game.
To destroy 3 RANDOM minions, you have to play this card not earlier than on turn 7, only if it has been in your hand for at least 2 previous turns (5 and 6), and only if you played 2 cards in a row, not cheaper than 5 mana.
It doesn't sound that good anymore, does it? In terms of removing stuff, it's basically weaker Twisting Nether, that you can play 1 turn earlier, but only after meeting very strict conditions (if you want to get full value). While not currupted, it's worse Deadly Shot.
Yes, it can be very powerful (especially when you can cheat it out for 0 mana), but only in the very late game (turn 10+), while Warlock lacks power in early and mid game. Kazakus, Golem Shaper is currently much better tool against aggro-tempo meta.
Oh... You think that greed = making your deck full of big dumb idiots... Greed is trying to win solely on value while ignoring tempo. Board wipes (especially one-sided) are value cards. They are made for 1 for 2(3\4\5)ing your opponent.