No way. That is so unfair to old players. I had to pay full price for my old cards and I didn’t dust them because i wanted to play wild. New players or players that CHOSE to disenchant their old cards for standard shouldn’t immediately be able to get the old cards easier just cause they want to. That’s so entitled. Work up your collection like everyone else had to!
Man you are going to hate the real life. stuff lose value, just because you payed full price when it was more valuable does not mean that you are entitled to be guaranteed compensation if the price drops. It is another story if they actually change the card, because then your product is changed by them.
Who cares? Games don’t have to suck like real life lmao. I don’t want them to. In fact i want to feel rewarded for my investment and time spent in this game! This is a digital card game. The value doesn’t have to drop unless it’s literally manipulated to. That isn’t fair to old players and the only reason you say ”haha life isn’t fair breh get over it” is because it benefits YOU this time around.
Things lose value over time. Wild is getting harder and harder with each expansion for jew players to get into. You can ignore that and not care, that's fine for you personally but it feels like a wasted opportunity for Blizzard to help get more active players into a game mode as well as making money at the same time. From a business perspective it doesn't seem to make sense to keep them feeling like they just can't get into it.
Experimenting in wild is more about evolving existing good decks into something more midrange/more aggro/ more control focused and testing new cards in old decks. There are no hidden arch types, and the win conditions for slow decks are also figured out for all classes since they are strictly superior too everything else (eg dk guldan, shadowreaper, shudderwock, Lunas pocket galaxy, nzoth,...)In reality, as a wild player you wait for the next expansion most of the time to get new cards. I would strictly advise against experimenting in wild when you are new to the format (unless you own the cards, then of course it doesn’t matter) because it will be very frustrating to craft something like frost lich jaina and then lose every game before even being able to play it/win the game without it having an impact and then find the one slow deck around which still beats you because jaina is just no wincon in wild anymore. If you want to take a look at wild you should watch some roffle streams (not YouTube videos, those are only highlights). You will see that there are mostly meta decks and only occasionally there is something surprising .
experimenting with value decks is fun, but after losing 10 games in a row against big priest you will regret your crafting decisions.
so start with playing good decks in wild, and move on to experimenting later. The great thing is that good decks are cheap more often than not
No way. That is so unfair to old players. I had to pay full price for my old cards and I didn’t dust them because i wanted to play wild. New players or players that CHOSE to disenchant their old cards for standard shouldn’t immediately be able to get the old cards easier just cause they want to. That’s so entitled. Work up your collection like everyone else had to!
Man you are going to hate the real life. stuff lose value, just because you payed full price when it was more valuable does not mean that you are entitled to be guaranteed compensation if the price drops. It is another story if they actually change the card, because then your product is changed by them.
Who cares? Games don’t have to suck like real life lmao. I don’t want them to. In fact i want to feel rewarded for my investment and time spent in this game! This is a digital card game. The value doesn’t have to drop unless it’s literally manipulated to. That isn’t fair to old players and the only reason you say ”haha life isn’t fair breh get over it” is because it benefits YOU this time around.
Things lose value over time. Wild is getting harder and harder with each expansion for jew players to get into. You can ignore that and not care, that's fine for you personally but it feels like a wasted opportunity for Blizzard to help get more active players into a game mode as well as making money at the same time. From a business perspective it doesn't seem to make sense to keep them feeling like they just can't get into it.
That’s just not true though. With every expansion only a few cards are even good enough to be used in wild and MANY of them are commons, rares, epics etc. anyway! You don’t need a FULL collection in order to enjoy wild. Seriously! You don’t.
secret mage doesn’t use ANY new cards from the barrens for example
Wild “getting harder and harder to get into” is a myth lol. Maybe blizz put that out there to make it so standard players don’t realize it’s the better investment? Idk. But jokes aside if you want to invest in wild than you should! but don't expect to be able to have every single niche deck imaginable because that just won’t be possible and is a massive goal that will feel like the worst grind ever trust me it wont be fun. Wild isn’t as hard to get into as you think.
No way. That is so unfair to old players. I had to pay full price for my old cards and I didn’t dust them because i wanted to play wild. New players or players that CHOSE to disenchant their old cards for standard shouldn’t immediately be able to get the old cards easier just cause they want to. That’s so entitled. Work up your collection like everyone else had to!
Man you are going to hate the real life. stuff lose value, just because you payed full price when it was more valuable does not mean that you are entitled to be guaranteed compensation if the price drops. It is another story if they actually change the card, because then your product is changed by them.
Who cares? Games don’t have to suck like real life lmao. I don’t want them to. In fact i want to feel rewarded for my investment and time spent in this game! This is a digital card game. The value doesn’t have to drop unless it’s literally manipulated to. That isn’t fair to old players and the only reason you say ”haha life isn’t fair breh get over it” is because it benefits YOU this time around.
Things lose value over time. Wild is getting harder and harder with each expansion for jew players to get into. You can ignore that and not care, that's fine for you personally but it feels like a wasted opportunity for Blizzard to help get more active players into a game mode as well as making money at the same time. From a business perspective it doesn't seem to make sense to keep them feeling like they just can't get into it.
That’s just not true though. With every expansion only a few cards are even good enough to be used in wild and MANY of them are commons, rares, epics etc. anyway! You don’t need a FULL collection in order to enjoy wild. Seriously! You don’t.
secret mage doesn’t use ANY new cards from the barrens for example
Wild “getting harder and harder to get into” is a myth lol. Maybe blizz put that out there to make it so standard players don’t realize it’s the better investment? Idk. But jokes aside if you want to invest in wild than you should! but don't expect to be able to have every single niche deck imaginable because that just won’t be possible and is a massive goal that will feel like the worst grind ever trust me it wont be fun. Wild isn’t as hard to get into as you think.
It's not a myth, it's a simple fact. I'm going to try and explain my point of view one last time, so it may be a long post here...
What you're doing here is applying your perspective and intentions across everybody and I'm seeing this a lot from your 'side' of the argument.
There are obviously different ways to play and they are obviously moving Hearthstone as a concept from 'standard' being 'the game' to a strategy game platform which has multiple ways to play and different game modes. Their goal as a business is to maximise engagement across as many players as possible, with increased engagement comes increased likely hood that one will spend money on the game, as they become more and more invested.
For those players who want to get into wild after starting with standard, they absolutely have to spend more money on the game. I have every single card from FiTB but thats not helpful when I want to check out cards that were printed and moved to wild before I started playing.
If you want to play standard AND wild, it will cost you more. I want to play standard, so I invested there, bought the pre order etc. Now to get into wild and use cards like Loatheb I ALSO have to invest there. Either through packs bought with money or gold or through dust.
Now you can say 'well it's your choice, pick one and then going forward the cost will be the same or actually even cheaper because once you've got the big boy cards in wild, you actually need less long term investment!'
Cooooool, you're still totally missing my point.
If someone wants to play standard but also check out the death knights, they need to invest more than someone who just wants to play standard. If that player enjoys wild and wants to try cards like Reno and Loatheb, that's more investment.
Now you will get to a point where you've enough of a wild collection to play both modes. Or you may be happy just crafting a deck or two and that's it. Fiiiiiine.
There are years of cards sitting there though and the cost to use even half of them is very high and its that entry point that is the issue.
I haven't once advocated for a free wild collection, I've argued against that very point. But making the entry point less daunting is what I am advocating for and mine (and many others) experience here is that being able to get into that world when you don't have a collection is tough.
From a narrow perspective, you're not wrong but not everyone has your perspective and from a business point of view, there are clearly enough players who want to play wild but simply don't, because it's additional investment to even get started and they feel they've invested in standard to the point that having that same cost for wild just isn't something they are prepared to do.
So, for Blizzard, who have openly said increasing engagement is their goal. They want you to play standard, then wild, then BG. The more modes you're invested in, the more time you spend within hearthstone, the more money you spend = win for them.
If you want to play BG, wild and standard because you've been sold on the product and want to maximise your enjoyment, then you need to invest X into standard. Then X into wild. Then you may want to get the BG perks.
So yes, being fully engaged with the game will be more expensive. I think most people understand and accept that. It's not a myth, it's an objective fact. It's also reasonable for them to expect people who enjoy all these game modes to invest more than someone who simply plays standard.
The issue here is there's no discount really for getting invested in several modes. To be as engaged as Blizzard want you to be, you need to continue spending money. Again, totally fine but hearthstone is pretty expensive and so many people just don't then invest in wild. Making it so that you can invest in multiple modes needs to be easier. Not for my sake. For Blizzard's sake.
I don't know how to say any clearer that if you only want to play wild then you're fine. If you've been playing a while and only need odd cards here and there then you're fine. But if you started in the last few years and don't have previous cards then yes, you need to spend again and there are two main issues with that, that I've seen - 1) cost. You could have bought every pre order for the last 2 years, not exactly small change, but for a whole host of cards in wild, you need to sink money or dust into them. It doesn't matter if some cards you've bought are useful, there are significant cards you'll be missing. And 2) it's daunting, so many unfamiliar cards and decks that it's too much hassle to bother with. Not much you can do about point 2, those people likely won't ever get into wild but for those in the first group, more can be done to make the additional investment easier.
Even Blizzard know this, they've done and tried to push wild bundles before. They have openly said that making it easier for new and returning players is on their agenda.
You can push the myth narrative all you like but when large parts of the community and the developers themselves know that works needs to be done then you're going to have a real task to convince me that it's all a 'myth'.
You are effectively straw manning me and coming out with rebuttals to argument so haven't made. So to directly answer some of your points...
"With every expansion only a few cards are even good enough to be used in wild"
Irrelevant, I haven't once mentioned that the end goal is to be competitive. We're talking about enjoying the game mode and that that can be done in a variety of ways.
"You don’t need a FULL collection in order to enjoy wild. Seriously! You don’t."
Again, you're making a point to argue against something I've just not said. I never suggested you did. As I said, I've actively argued against the idea of simply granting the wild collection. I don't agree with this what so ever.
"secret mage doesn’t use ANY new cards from the barrens for example"
OK? Completely missing the point, again. Playing wild translates to playing secret mage, does it? If anything, you're supporting my argument here. Got every single card from barrens? Great, none of that is useful if you want to play secret mage. You need to spend AGAIN and that spending won't carry any form of discount to say 'hey, thanks for dumping a ton of money into our game'.
I'll wrap up with this, you're speaking as though you're talking to someone who is choosing whether to play Wild OR standard and it's causing you to completely talk past me. I am talking from the perspective of players who want to play both and considering the perspective of Blizzard, who have said themselves that making the game more new player friendly, easier for returning players and that they want to 'maximise player engagement'. The simple fact is you are not maximising engagement because to do so does require a significant investment of either time or money, too much. That is the point.
Wild is significantly less popular than standard. If you think that's simply down to people believing a myth then you do you.
Yes, yes, wall of text blah blah blah. If you cba reading for 1 minute then you aren't putting enough effort to engage in conversation anyway. This isn't a response solely and specifically to the person quoted, it's just easier to answer several posts I've seen in one post than specifically quote every single one. I'm sure I've repeated points, apologies.
This game would probably be much better if expansions and their rewards were not limited time only.
I believe that new players should still get the same base experience as everyone else. New players should be given the opportunity to go through each expansion, play their starting and legendary quests, and receive all those free rewards and Legendary cards as they make progress through each expansion.
No way. That is so unfair to old players. I had to pay full price for my old cards and I didn’t dust them because i wanted to play wild. New players or players that CHOSE to disenchant their old cards for standard shouldn’t immediately be able to get the old cards easier just cause they want to. That’s so entitled. Work up your collection like everyone else had to!
Man you are going to hate the real life. stuff lose value, just because you payed full price when it was more valuable does not mean that you are entitled to be guaranteed compensation if the price drops. It is another story if they actually change the card, because then your product is changed by them.
Who cares? Games don’t have to suck like real life lmao. I don’t want them to. In fact i want to feel rewarded for my investment and time spent in this game! This is a digital card game. The value doesn’t have to drop unless it’s literally manipulated to. That isn’t fair to old players and the only reason you say ”haha life isn’t fair breh get over it” is because it benefits YOU this time around.
Things lose value over time. Wild is getting harder and harder with each expansion for jew players to get into. You can ignore that and not care, that's fine for you personally but it feels like a wasted opportunity for Blizzard to help get more active players into a game mode as well as making money at the same time. From a business perspective it doesn't seem to make sense to keep them feeling like they just can't get into it.
You all keep saying that "things lose value over time," but that's absolutely not true. SOME of the old cards are essentially valueless, but that's true of new cards as well. Every expansion has pack filler. But the good cards in Wild are still very valuable. Reno, Kazakus, Guldan, Anduin, Loatheb, and others still are tremendously valuable. So why should you get these valuable cards for free when others have paid good money or dust for them?
As others have mentioned, the notion that Wild decks are very expensive is simply not true. There seems to be this vision that Wild decks consist of 27 legendaries and 3 spells. That's just not true. Building a Wild deck doesn't need to be expensive. Sure, there are wallet decks, but that's true of Standard right now as well. Rush Warrior isn't cheap: the version currently on Tempostorm costs over 16k. The most expensive Tier 1 deck in Wild right now is probably Reno Priest, which "only" costs 14k, but the other ones run between 4 and 7k dust and use a sizable number of Standard cards.
Sure, if you want to create some bizarre niche deck, it's going to cost you (whether in Standard or Wild). But quite frankly that's a luxury that you SHOULD have to pay for. Lots of f2p players can't afford every Standard card. Why should anyone be entitled to doing so in Wild is beyond me.
Just for the record, I know that you are not arguing for players to get these cards for free (unlike others on this thread). And I agree with you that some kind of discount would be appropriate. My main quarrel is with your (and others') claim that old cards decline in value. That's demonstrably not true. As such, the ONLY justification for discounting Wild card packs is player engagement.
No way. That is so unfair to old players. I had to pay full price for my old cards and I didn’t dust them because i wanted to play wild. New players or players that CHOSE to disenchant their old cards for standard shouldn’t immediately be able to get the old cards easier just cause they want to. That’s so entitled. Work up your collection like everyone else had to!
Man you are going to hate the real life. stuff lose value, just because you payed full price when it was more valuable does not mean that you are entitled to be guaranteed compensation if the price drops. It is another story if they actually change the card, because then your product is changed by them.
Who cares? Games don’t have to suck like real life lmao. I don’t want them to. In fact i want to feel rewarded for my investment and time spent in this game! This is a digital card game. The value doesn’t have to drop unless it’s literally manipulated to. That isn’t fair to old players and the only reason you say ”haha life isn’t fair breh get over it” is because it benefits YOU this time around.
Things lose value over time. Wild is getting harder and harder with each expansion for jew players to get into. You can ignore that and not care, that's fine for you personally but it feels like a wasted opportunity for Blizzard to help get more active players into a game mode as well as making money at the same time. From a business perspective it doesn't seem to make sense to keep them feeling like they just can't get into it.
You all keep saying that "things lose value over time," but that's absolutely not true. SOME of the old cards are essentially valueless, but that's true of new cards as well. Every expansion has pack filler. But the good cards in Wild are still very valuable. Reno, Kazakus, Guldan, Anduin, Loatheb, and others still are tremendously valuable. So why should you get these valuable cards for free when others have paid good money or dust for them?
As others have mentioned, the notion that Wild decks are very expensive is simply not true. There seems to be this vision that Wild decks consist of 27 legendaries and 3 spells. That's just not true. Building a Wild deck doesn't need to be expensive. Sure, there are wallet decks, but that's true of Standard right now as well. Rush Warrior isn't cheap: the version currently on Tempostorm costs over 16k. The most expensive Tier 1 deck in Wild right now is probably Reno Priest, which "only" costs 14k, but the other ones run between 4 and 7k dust and use a sizable number of Standard cards.
Sure, if you want to create some bizarre niche deck, it's going to cost you (whether in Standard or Wild). But quite frankly that's a luxury that you SHOULD have to pay for. Lots of f2p players can't afford every Standard card. Why should anyone be entitled to doing so in Wild is beyond me.
Because it IS wild.. and MUCH less popular "red-headed stepchild" of game modes. Standard being the main mode makes spending 16k of dust worth it because it is the current and most popular set of cards being used. Spending anywhere near that for wild decks is supremely wasteful to many players (and probably a huge majority of new players) that would just like to dabble in Wild now and again. This problem only gets worse the more expansions move to wild. Thrift store modes should have thrift store prices.
If you don't really want to pay money to go to a theatre you wait until the movie comes to Netflix right? Do you complain when movies hit Netflix and everyone can watch them because you went to the theatre and spent $20 on it? Obviously not a perfect analogy... but point being things that were worth money months/years ago shouldn't always hold that value/exclusiveness.
You all keep saying that "things lose value over time," but that's absolutely not true. SOME of the old cards are essentially valueless, but that's true of new cards as well. Every expansion has pack filler. But the good cards in Wild are still very valuable. Reno, Kazakus, Guldan, Anduin, Loatheb, and others still are tremendously valuable. So why should you get these valuable cards for free when others have paid good money or dust for them?
As others have mentioned, the notion that Wild decks are very expensive is simply not true. There seems to be this vision that Wild decks consist of 27 legendaries and 3 spells. That's just not true. Building a Wild deck doesn't need to be expensive. Sure, there are wallet decks, but that's true of Standard right now as well. Rush Warrior isn't cheap: the version currently on Tempostorm costs over 16k. The most expensive Tier 1 deck in Wild right now is probably Reno Priest, which "only" costs 14k, but the other ones run between 4 and 7k dust and use a sizable number of Standard cards.
Sure, if you want to create some bizarre niche deck, it's going to cost you (whether in Standard or Wild). But quite frankly that's a luxury that you SHOULD have to pay for. Lots of f2p players can't afford every Standard card. Why should anyone be entitled to doing so in Wild is beyond me.
Because it IS wild.. and MUCH less popular "red-headed stepchild" of game modes. Standard being the main mode makes spending 16k of dust worth it because it is the current and most popular set of cards being used. Spending anywhere near that for wild decks is supremely wasteful to many players (and probably a huge majority of new players) that would just like to dabble in Wild now and again. This problem only gets worse the more expansions move to wild. Thrift store modes should have thrift store prices.
If you don't really want to pay money to go to a theatre you wait until the movie comes to Netflix right? Do you complain when movies hit Netflix and everyone can watch them because you went to the theatre and spent $20 on it? Obviously not a perfect analogy... but point being things that were worth money months/years ago shouldn't always hold that value/exclusiveness.
Speaking as someone who ladders on Wild and plays whatever deck I feel like and can afford in Standard, believe me when I say that the vast majority of dedicated Wild players could not care less whether the "cool kids" from Standard come over to play with us. So the idea that you're doing us a favor by hanging out at the "thrift shop" is a joke. As I've said before, the Wild meta is more diverse, more challenging and more interesting than the snooze-fest that is Standard right now. ("Oh good, another no-minion Mage." Yawn.) Put bluntly, Wild is better than Standard right now and has been for a long time. So you want to escape a crappy meta AND be rewarded with free cards for the privilege? Hell, no.
To use your movie analogy, I don't expect people to pay the same watching a movie on Netflix as I did in the theater. But they damn well SHOULD have to pay for it.
Which is "better" is highly subjective, standard is played at 3-4x higher rate.. so I would say majority disagrees. However I will concede that maybe FREE is a bit much. But the cost of old content and packs/cards is just way to high for new players and growth to the "better" mode.
Let's cut crafting costs by 1/4 and pack costs by 50% gold for cards/sets more than 1 rotation old. Then we can stick with the thrift shop comparison.
Which is "better" is highly subjective, standard is played at 3-4x higher rate.. so I would say majority disagrees. However I will concede that maybe FREE is a bit much. But the cost of old content and packs/cards is just way to high for new players and growth to the "better" mode.
Let's cut crafting costs by 1/4 and pack costs by 50% gold for cards/sets more than 1 rotation old. Then we can stick with the thrift shop comparison.
Don't offer absurd solutions, please.
Wild packs won't cost 50% because it will be a solid option to open wild decks just for standard dust. Making crafting cost 1/4th of the current one means that wild cards will become free with crafting=dusting. Unless you also want to reduce dusting cost accordingly but then Blizzard have to refund all Wild collections (aka not happening)
Something like 75% or 50% for crafting old cards (with the same dusting cost) is the best we can hope for. Or events\achievements with "free" wild packs or frequent special bundles with wild packs in them. Or something along those lines. Selling wild decks can be a fantastic way to give players old legendaries\epics for a reasonable price, too
Actually tried wild few times so no I am not talking out of my ass. I do spend a lot of money on hearthstone. I just saying every f time I go play wild which should be wild decks there is standard decks being played and if it is wild deck it mil rogue or rez priest or secret mage. And people play as slow in molasses in either mode if you are going to bore me by roping the most simplistic of turns go play bgs cause wild is also trash.
You all keep saying that "things lose value over time," but that's absolutely not true. SOME of the old cards are essentially valueless, but that's true of new cards as well. Every expansion has pack filler. But the good cards in Wild are still very valuable. Reno, Kazakus, Guldan, Anduin, Loatheb, and others still are tremendously valuable. So why should you get these valuable cards for free when others have paid good money or dust for them?
As others have mentioned, the notion that Wild decks are very expensive is simply not true. There seems to be this vision that Wild decks consist of 27 legendaries and 3 spells. That's just not true. Building a Wild deck doesn't need to be expensive. Sure, there are wallet decks, but that's true of Standard right now as well. Rush Warrior isn't cheap: the version currently on Tempostorm costs over 16k. The most expensive Tier 1 deck in Wild right now is probably Reno Priest, which "only" costs 14k, but the other ones run between 4 and 7k dust and use a sizable number of Standard cards.
Sure, if you want to create some bizarre niche deck, it's going to cost you (whether in Standard or Wild). But quite frankly that's a luxury that you SHOULD have to pay for. Lots of f2p players can't afford every Standard card. Why should anyone be entitled to doing so in Wild is beyond me.
Because it IS wild.. and MUCH less popular "red-headed stepchild" of game modes. Standard being the main mode makes spending 16k of dust worth it because it is the current and most popular set of cards being used. Spending anywhere near that for wild decks is supremely wasteful to many players (and probably a huge majority of new players) that would just like to dabble in Wild now and again. This problem only gets worse the more expansions move to wild. Thrift store modes should have thrift store prices.
If you don't really want to pay money to go to a theatre you wait until the movie comes to Netflix right? Do you complain when movies hit Netflix and everyone can watch them because you went to the theatre and spent $20 on it? Obviously not a perfect analogy... but point being things that were worth money months/years ago shouldn't always hold that value/exclusiveness.
Speaking as someone who ladders on Wild and plays whatever deck I feel like and can afford in Standard, believe me when I say that the vast majority of dedicated Wild players could not care less whether the "cool kids" from Standard come over to play with us. So the idea that you're doing us a favor by hanging out at the "thrift shop" is a joke. As I've said before, the Wild meta is more diverse, more challenging and more interesting than the snooze-fest that is Standard right now. ("Oh good, another no-minion Mage." Yawn.) Put bluntly, Wild is better than Standard right now and has been for a long time. So you want to escape a crappy meta AND be rewarded with free cards for the privilege? Hell, no.
To use your movie analogy, I don't expect people to pay the same watching a movie on Netflix as I did in the theater. But they damn well SHOULD have to pay for it.
Who said that standard players are the "cool kids" that are doing you a favour by hanging out with you? Based on your argument it rather sounds like you believe that wild players are the "cool kids" who wants to be left alone.
And it does not sound like you understand the movie analogy. You do pay for Netflix, you just pay less.
It would be hilarious if Blizzard closed down Wild due to a lack of engagement and TallStranger had nothing to play.
In all seriousness any Wild player who doesn’t want other players getting years old content for cheap or for free purely because they themselves have paid/earned them are being selfish and their opinions should be ignored in that regard. I get that it might feel bad, but it is a completely self serving mindset that has no place in video games.
There’s no difference in something being free or cheap in this context. The idea is to make it accessible.
Why would it matter if new players are given Naxx for free? How would this effect current Wild players any more than if the newer player had to pay £5 for it, or £15 or whatever is costs currently. Like why would anyone think “I’m happy with a newer player paying £5, but it isn’t fair on ME if they get it for!” They are completely unaffected either way. The only difference is that some poor kid somewhere has an extra 5 quid in their pocket instead of Blizzard.
Noone is against cheaper cards, just refund the dust difference and everybody will be happy.
This reminds me MTG and those "WOTC should never reprint cards because my collection loses value!" people. But those guys look reasonable in comparison because they do lose potential profit from selling their collection. Hearthstone players lose nothing from price going down but they still complain because of some virtual - "I could wait to this day and get cards cheaper!"
Because it IS wild.. and MUCH less popular "red-headed stepchild" of game modes. Standard being the main mode makes spending 16k of dust worth it because it is the current and most popular set of cards being used. Spending anywhere near that for wild decks is supremely wasteful to many players (and probably a huge majority of new players) that would just like to dabble in Wild now and again. This problem only gets worse the more expansions move to wild. Thrift store modes should have thrift store prices.
If you don't really want to pay money to go to a theatre you wait until the movie comes to Netflix right? Do you complain when movies hit Netflix and everyone can watch them because you went to the theatre and spent $20 on it? Obviously not a perfect analogy... but point being things that were worth money months/years ago shouldn't always hold that value/exclusiveness.
Speaking as someone who ladders on Wild and plays whatever deck I feel like and can afford in Standard, believe me when I say that the vast majority of dedicated Wild players could not care less whether the "cool kids" from Standard come over to play with us. So the idea that you're doing us a favor by hanging out at the "thrift shop" is a joke. As I've said before, the Wild meta is more diverse, more challenging and more interesting than the snooze-fest that is Standard right now. ("Oh good, another no-minion Mage." Yawn.) Put bluntly, Wild is better than Standard right now and has been for a long time. So you want to escape a crappy meta AND be rewarded with free cards for the privilege? Hell, no.
To use your movie analogy, I don't expect people to pay the same watching a movie on Netflix as I did in the theater. But they damn well SHOULD have to pay for it.
Who said that standard players are the "cool kids" that are doing you a favour by hanging out with you? Based on your argument it rather sounds like you believe that wild players are the "cool kids" who wants to be left alone.
And it does not sound like you understand the movie analogy. You do pay for Netflix, you just pay less.
I think you're misreading my comments (or I'm not explaining my views clearly). In terms of the "cool kids" statement, what I was rebutting was the "thrift shop" comment he made and the implication that because Wild is less popular than standard, we Wild players should be happy to have more people from Standard "come over." Let me be clear: I could not care less if more people come over to Wild. We are not so desperate for more players that people should get free Wild cards. In fact, we're not desperate at all. Wild is, IMO, doing just fine. If people want to play Wild, great, happy to have them. But they shouldn't, in essence, be paid to play Wild, which is exactly what will happen if these cards are given away.
As for the Netflix comment, that was exactly my point. Watching a movie on Netflix is cheaper than doing so at the theater. But it is not free. Similarly, I am fine with providing some sort of discount (in either gold or dust) for Wild cards, but I am opposed to giving away these cards for free.
There’s no difference in something being free or cheap in this context. The idea is to make it accessible.
Why would it matter if new players are given Naxx for free? How would this effect current Wild players any more than if the newer player had to pay £5 for it, or £15 or whatever is costs currently. Like why would anyone think “I’m happy with a newer player paying £5, but it isn’t fair on ME if they get it for!” They are completely unaffected either way. The only difference is that some poor kid somewhere has an extra 5 quid in their pocket instead of Blizzard.
There is a huge difference between something being free vs. being cheap. I fail to see how you don't understand that.
There are a couple ways one could answer your "Why would it matter if new players are given Naxx for free?" question. Unfortunately, all those responses get us into the same tedious argument that sprouts up here at Hearthpwn periodically regarding the complaint that "Hearthstone is too expensive." Rather than reopen an utterly fruitless argument, I will simply say that I believe people should be willing to pay for things they believe to be of value. Such a belief is, in fact, the fundamental basis of the market economy. If you think that playing Wild is something you want to do because it will increase your enjoyment of the game, then you should be willing to pay (either in real money or game currency) for it.
In addition, giving these cards away will, in fact, reduce Blizzard's profits (if only by a modest amount). Because companies don't like to see that occur, the company will most definitely recoup these lost profits somewhere else in the game, probably by increasing the cost of new cards. That WILL affect me, if only modestly. You fail to understand that there is no such thing as a free lunch. The costs of providing these cards for free will be borne by the entire community. I gain nothing by having more players in Wild. But you're asking me to, in essence, pay for something and get nothing. That is unfair.
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Things lose value over time. Wild is getting harder and harder with each expansion for jew players to get into. You can ignore that and not care, that's fine for you personally but it feels like a wasted opportunity for Blizzard to help get more active players into a game mode as well as making money at the same time. From a business perspective it doesn't seem to make sense to keep them feeling like they just can't get into it.
Experimenting in wild is more about evolving existing good decks into something more midrange/more aggro/ more control focused and testing new cards in old decks. There are no hidden arch types, and the win conditions for slow decks are also figured out for all classes since they are strictly superior too everything else (eg dk guldan, shadowreaper, shudderwock, Lunas pocket galaxy, nzoth,...)In reality, as a wild player you wait for the next expansion most of the time to get new cards. I would strictly advise against experimenting in wild when you are new to the format (unless you own the cards, then of course it doesn’t matter) because it will be very frustrating to craft something like frost lich jaina and then lose every game before even being able to play it/win the game without it having an impact and then find the one slow deck around which still beats you because jaina is just no wincon in wild anymore. If you want to take a look at wild you should watch some roffle streams (not YouTube videos, those are only highlights). You will see that there are mostly meta decks and only occasionally there is something surprising .
experimenting with value decks is fun, but after losing 10 games in a row against big priest you will regret your crafting decisions.
so start with playing good decks in wild, and move on to experimenting later. The great thing is that good decks are cheap more often than not
That’s just not true though. With every expansion only a few cards are even good enough to be used in wild and MANY of them are commons, rares, epics etc. anyway! You don’t need a FULL collection in order to enjoy wild. Seriously! You don’t.
secret mage doesn’t use ANY new cards from the barrens for example
Wild “getting harder and harder to get into” is a myth lol. Maybe blizz put that out there to make it so standard players don’t realize it’s the better investment? Idk. But jokes aside if you want to invest in wild than you should! but don't expect to be able to have every single niche deck imaginable because that just won’t be possible and is a massive goal that will feel like the worst grind ever trust me it wont be fun. Wild isn’t as hard to get into as you think.
It's not a myth, it's a simple fact. I'm going to try and explain my point of view one last time, so it may be a long post here...
What you're doing here is applying your perspective and intentions across everybody and I'm seeing this a lot from your 'side' of the argument.
There are obviously different ways to play and they are obviously moving Hearthstone as a concept from 'standard' being 'the game' to a strategy game platform which has multiple ways to play and different game modes. Their goal as a business is to maximise engagement across as many players as possible, with increased engagement comes increased likely hood that one will spend money on the game, as they become more and more invested.
For those players who want to get into wild after starting with standard, they absolutely have to spend more money on the game. I have every single card from FiTB but thats not helpful when I want to check out cards that were printed and moved to wild before I started playing.
If you want to play standard AND wild, it will cost you more. I want to play standard, so I invested there, bought the pre order etc. Now to get into wild and use cards like Loatheb I ALSO have to invest there. Either through packs bought with money or gold or through dust.
Now you can say 'well it's your choice, pick one and then going forward the cost will be the same or actually even cheaper because once you've got the big boy cards in wild, you actually need less long term investment!'
Cooooool, you're still totally missing my point.
If someone wants to play standard but also check out the death knights, they need to invest more than someone who just wants to play standard. If that player enjoys wild and wants to try cards like Reno and Loatheb, that's more investment.
Now you will get to a point where you've enough of a wild collection to play both modes. Or you may be happy just crafting a deck or two and that's it. Fiiiiiine.
There are years of cards sitting there though and the cost to use even half of them is very high and its that entry point that is the issue.
I haven't once advocated for a free wild collection, I've argued against that very point. But making the entry point less daunting is what I am advocating for and mine (and many others) experience here is that being able to get into that world when you don't have a collection is tough.
From a narrow perspective, you're not wrong but not everyone has your perspective and from a business point of view, there are clearly enough players who want to play wild but simply don't, because it's additional investment to even get started and they feel they've invested in standard to the point that having that same cost for wild just isn't something they are prepared to do.
So, for Blizzard, who have openly said increasing engagement is their goal. They want you to play standard, then wild, then BG. The more modes you're invested in, the more time you spend within hearthstone, the more money you spend = win for them.
If you want to play BG, wild and standard because you've been sold on the product and want to maximise your enjoyment, then you need to invest X into standard. Then X into wild. Then you may want to get the BG perks.
So yes, being fully engaged with the game will be more expensive. I think most people understand and accept that. It's not a myth, it's an objective fact. It's also reasonable for them to expect people who enjoy all these game modes to invest more than someone who simply plays standard.
The issue here is there's no discount really for getting invested in several modes. To be as engaged as Blizzard want you to be, you need to continue spending money. Again, totally fine but hearthstone is pretty expensive and so many people just don't then invest in wild. Making it so that you can invest in multiple modes needs to be easier. Not for my sake. For Blizzard's sake.
I don't know how to say any clearer that if you only want to play wild then you're fine. If you've been playing a while and only need odd cards here and there then you're fine. But if you started in the last few years and don't have previous cards then yes, you need to spend again and there are two main issues with that, that I've seen - 1) cost. You could have bought every pre order for the last 2 years, not exactly small change, but for a whole host of cards in wild, you need to sink money or dust into them. It doesn't matter if some cards you've bought are useful, there are significant cards you'll be missing. And 2) it's daunting, so many unfamiliar cards and decks that it's too much hassle to bother with. Not much you can do about point 2, those people likely won't ever get into wild but for those in the first group, more can be done to make the additional investment easier.
Even Blizzard know this, they've done and tried to push wild bundles before. They have openly said that making it easier for new and returning players is on their agenda.
You can push the myth narrative all you like but when large parts of the community and the developers themselves know that works needs to be done then you're going to have a real task to convince me that it's all a 'myth'.
You are effectively straw manning me and coming out with rebuttals to argument so haven't made. So to directly answer some of your points...
"With every expansion only a few cards are even good enough to be used in wild"
Irrelevant, I haven't once mentioned that the end goal is to be competitive. We're talking about enjoying the game mode and that that can be done in a variety of ways.
"You don’t need a FULL collection in order to enjoy wild. Seriously! You don’t."
Again, you're making a point to argue against something I've just not said. I never suggested you did. As I said, I've actively argued against the idea of simply granting the wild collection. I don't agree with this what so ever.
"secret mage doesn’t use ANY new cards from the barrens for example"
OK? Completely missing the point, again. Playing wild translates to playing secret mage, does it? If anything, you're supporting my argument here. Got every single card from barrens? Great, none of that is useful if you want to play secret mage. You need to spend AGAIN and that spending won't carry any form of discount to say 'hey, thanks for dumping a ton of money into our game'.
I'll wrap up with this, you're speaking as though you're talking to someone who is choosing whether to play Wild OR standard and it's causing you to completely talk past me. I am talking from the perspective of players who want to play both and considering the perspective of Blizzard, who have said themselves that making the game more new player friendly, easier for returning players and that they want to 'maximise player engagement'. The simple fact is you are not maximising engagement because to do so does require a significant investment of either time or money, too much. That is the point.
Wild is significantly less popular than standard. If you think that's simply down to people believing a myth then you do you.
Yes, yes, wall of text blah blah blah. If you cba reading for 1 minute then you aren't putting enough effort to engage in conversation anyway. This isn't a response solely and specifically to the person quoted, it's just easier to answer several posts I've seen in one post than specifically quote every single one. I'm sure I've repeated points, apologies.
This game would probably be much better if expansions and their rewards were not limited time only.
I believe that new players should still get the same base experience as everyone else. New players should be given the opportunity to go through each expansion, play their starting and legendary quests, and receive all those free rewards and Legendary cards as they make progress through each expansion.
Yogg take the wheel!
You all keep saying that "things lose value over time," but that's absolutely not true. SOME of the old cards are essentially valueless, but that's true of new cards as well. Every expansion has pack filler. But the good cards in Wild are still very valuable. Reno, Kazakus, Guldan, Anduin, Loatheb, and others still are tremendously valuable. So why should you get these valuable cards for free when others have paid good money or dust for them?
As others have mentioned, the notion that Wild decks are very expensive is simply not true. There seems to be this vision that Wild decks consist of 27 legendaries and 3 spells. That's just not true. Building a Wild deck doesn't need to be expensive. Sure, there are wallet decks, but that's true of Standard right now as well. Rush Warrior isn't cheap: the version currently on Tempostorm costs over 16k. The most expensive Tier 1 deck in Wild right now is probably Reno Priest, which "only" costs 14k, but the other ones run between 4 and 7k dust and use a sizable number of Standard cards.
Sure, if you want to create some bizarre niche deck, it's going to cost you (whether in Standard or Wild). But quite frankly that's a luxury that you SHOULD have to pay for. Lots of f2p players can't afford every Standard card. Why should anyone be entitled to doing so in Wild is beyond me.
@P4dge
Just for the record, I know that you are not arguing for players to get these cards for free (unlike others on this thread). And I agree with you that some kind of discount would be appropriate. My main quarrel is with your (and others') claim that old cards decline in value. That's demonstrably not true. As such, the ONLY justification for discounting Wild card packs is player engagement.
Because it IS wild.. and MUCH less popular "red-headed stepchild" of game modes. Standard being the main mode makes spending 16k of dust worth it because it is the current and most popular set of cards being used. Spending anywhere near that for wild decks is supremely wasteful to many players (and probably a huge majority of new players) that would just like to dabble in Wild now and again. This problem only gets worse the more expansions move to wild. Thrift store modes should have thrift store prices.
If you don't really want to pay money to go to a theatre you wait until the movie comes to Netflix right? Do you complain when movies hit Netflix and everyone can watch them because you went to the theatre and spent $20 on it? Obviously not a perfect analogy... but point being things that were worth money months/years ago shouldn't always hold that value/exclusiveness.
Speaking as someone who ladders on Wild and plays whatever deck I feel like and can afford in Standard, believe me when I say that the vast majority of dedicated Wild players could not care less whether the "cool kids" from Standard come over to play with us. So the idea that you're doing us a favor by hanging out at the "thrift shop" is a joke. As I've said before, the Wild meta is more diverse, more challenging and more interesting than the snooze-fest that is Standard right now. ("Oh good, another no-minion Mage." Yawn.) Put bluntly, Wild is better than Standard right now and has been for a long time. So you want to escape a crappy meta AND be rewarded with free cards for the privilege? Hell, no.
To use your movie analogy, I don't expect people to pay the same watching a movie on Netflix as I did in the theater. But they damn well SHOULD have to pay for it.
Which is "better" is highly subjective, standard is played at 3-4x higher rate.. so I would say majority disagrees. However I will concede that maybe FREE is a bit much. But the cost of old content and packs/cards is just way to high for new players and growth to the "better" mode.
Let's cut crafting costs by 1/4 and pack costs by 50% gold for cards/sets more than 1 rotation old. Then we can stick with the thrift shop comparison.
That I could live with. (But Wild is still better ;-))
Don't offer absurd solutions, please.
Wild packs won't cost 50% because it will be a solid option to open wild decks just for standard dust. Making crafting cost 1/4th of the current one means that wild cards will become free with crafting=dusting. Unless you also want to reduce dusting cost accordingly but then Blizzard have to refund all Wild collections (aka not happening)
Something like 75% or 50% for crafting old cards (with the same dusting cost) is the best we can hope for. Or events\achievements with "free" wild packs or frequent special bundles with wild packs in them. Or something along those lines. Selling wild decks can be a fantastic way to give players old legendaries\epics for a reasonable price, too
Actually tried wild few times so no I am not talking out of my ass. I do spend a lot of money on hearthstone. I just saying every f time I go play wild which should be wild decks there is standard decks being played and if it is wild deck it mil rogue or rez priest or secret mage. And people play as slow in molasses in either mode if you are going to bore me by roping the most simplistic of turns go play bgs cause wild is also trash.
Who said that standard players are the "cool kids" that are doing you a favour by hanging out with you? Based on your argument it rather sounds like you believe that wild players are the "cool kids" who wants to be left alone.
And it does not sound like you understand the movie analogy. You do pay for Netflix, you just pay less.
It would be hilarious if Blizzard closed down Wild due to a lack of engagement and TallStranger had nothing to play.
In all seriousness any Wild player who doesn’t want other players getting years old content for cheap or for free purely because they themselves have paid/earned them are being selfish and their opinions should be ignored in that regard. I get that it might feel bad, but it is a completely self serving mindset that has no place in video games.
Noone is against cheaper cards, just refund the dust difference and everybody will be happy.
There’s no difference in something being free or cheap in this context. The idea is to make it accessible.
Why would it matter if new players are given Naxx for free? How would this effect current Wild players any more than if the newer player had to pay £5 for it, or £15 or whatever is costs currently. Like why would anyone think “I’m happy with a newer player paying £5, but it isn’t fair on ME if they get it for!” They are completely unaffected either way. The only difference is that some poor kid somewhere has an extra 5 quid in their pocket instead of Blizzard.
This reminds me MTG and those "WOTC should never reprint cards because my collection loses value!" people. But those guys look reasonable in comparison because they do lose potential profit from selling their collection. Hearthstone players lose nothing from price going down but they still complain because of some virtual - "I could wait to this day and get cards cheaper!"
I think you're misreading my comments (or I'm not explaining my views clearly). In terms of the "cool kids" statement, what I was rebutting was the "thrift shop" comment he made and the implication that because Wild is less popular than standard, we Wild players should be happy to have more people from Standard "come over." Let me be clear: I could not care less if more people come over to Wild. We are not so desperate for more players that people should get free Wild cards. In fact, we're not desperate at all. Wild is, IMO, doing just fine. If people want to play Wild, great, happy to have them. But they shouldn't, in essence, be paid to play Wild, which is exactly what will happen if these cards are given away.
As for the Netflix comment, that was exactly my point. Watching a movie on Netflix is cheaper than doing so at the theater. But it is not free. Similarly, I am fine with providing some sort of discount (in either gold or dust) for Wild cards, but I am opposed to giving away these cards for free.
Hope this clarifies my position.
There is a huge difference between something being free vs. being cheap. I fail to see how you don't understand that.
There are a couple ways one could answer your "Why would it matter if new players are given Naxx for free?" question. Unfortunately, all those responses get us into the same tedious argument that sprouts up here at Hearthpwn periodically regarding the complaint that "Hearthstone is too expensive." Rather than reopen an utterly fruitless argument, I will simply say that I believe people should be willing to pay for things they believe to be of value. Such a belief is, in fact, the fundamental basis of the market economy. If you think that playing Wild is something you want to do because it will increase your enjoyment of the game, then you should be willing to pay (either in real money or game currency) for it.
In addition, giving these cards away will, in fact, reduce Blizzard's profits (if only by a modest amount). Because companies don't like to see that occur, the company will most definitely recoup these lost profits somewhere else in the game, probably by increasing the cost of new cards. That WILL affect me, if only modestly. You fail to understand that there is no such thing as a free lunch. The costs of providing these cards for free will be borne by the entire community. I gain nothing by having more players in Wild. But you're asking me to, in essence, pay for something and get nothing. That is unfair.