I have recently replaced one of the Primordials with a Taelan Fordring which has given the mid-game a little more beef (and protection from aggro). Aside from that, I am pretty much continuing to play this deck as-is at the moment.
Paladin is pretty hard to nerf. You would need to hit multiple cards.
I think I would start with oh my yogg. Nerf that and hope it drops the win rate a point or two.
Deck would still be strong, but hopefully be vulnerable to removal heavy decks.
I'm genuinely curious, how would you nerf OMY? You can't nerf it by mana because it's a pala secret and those can only be 1 mana. Its effect is not scalable so you can't change that either (unless you want to change it to cast a spell that costs 1 more or something...which is pointless) so unless team 5 does a "give your charge minions +1 attack" kind of nerf, I really can't envision how OMY could be changed.
Paladin is pretty hard to nerf. You would need to hit multiple cards.
I think I would start with oh my yogg. Nerf that and hope it drops the win rate a point or two.
Deck would still be strong, but hopefully be vulnerable to removal heavy decks.
I'm genuinely curious, how would you nerf OMY? You can't nerf it by mana because it's a pala secret and those can only be 1 mana. Its effect is not scalable so you can't change that either (unless you want to change it to cast a spell that costs 1 more or something...which is pointless) so unless team 5 does a "give your charge minions +1 attack" kind of nerf, I really can't envision how OMY could be changed.
I believe there's a good way. Simply make the newly cast spell cost no mana. This way, player will lose his card (resource) but not mana (tempo) and won't automatically lose the game when there's lethal on board. Right now it's usually like this: I have 5 mana, Siphon Soul and Hysteria in my hand. I use the cheaper one, it gets Yogged and I don't have mana to use the other one, so it's over for me. If the first card were free, I'd have a chance.
Lower skill players complaining about strong decks, surprise surprise. Why not spend the time focusing on improving your gameplay to improve your winrate against strong decks rather than screaming for nerfs or the cycle simply continues. There's a reason as you approach high legend (top 200) that paladins win rate decreases substantially
Nawasty, that thing you quoted is from before the ladder rework. No way that translates to the game today where all players reset to zero.
And I'm incredibly intoxicated, but I think depending on how the decks were played, there's a scenario where the decks outperform in the lower leagues, but narrow the difference in win rates as skill increases.
I see three computer screens at this point, so I could be wrong, but I think that could work.
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Enjoying Americans winning in the Olympics is forbidden because it is political. A 14 plus page discussion of state-sponsored lawsuits against a multi-national corporation based on harassment, discrimination, and wrongful death allegations is apparently not political enough to raise an issue.
Lower skill players complaining about strong decks, surprise surprise. Why not spend the time focusing on improving your gameplay to improve your winrate against strong decks rather than screaming for nerfs or the cycle simply continues. There's a reason as you approach high legend (top 200) that paladins win rate decreases substantially
Because it's the situation like: Create a special suit that will make even very average sprinter unbeatable by anyone... except Usain Bolt. He can do it, so the suit isn't unfair and there's no problem?
Lower skill players complaining about strong decks, surprise surprise. Why not spend the time focusing on improving your gameplay to improve your winrate against strong decks rather than screaming for nerfs or the cycle simply continues. There's a reason as you approach high legend (top 200) that paladins win rate decreases substantially
Because it's the situation like: Create a special suit that will make even very average sprinter unbeatable by anyone... except Usain Bolt. He can do it, so the suit isn't unfair and there's no problem?
Yes, Paladin is that suit...
It really isn't but if you feel that way, you feel that way I guess.
Because it's the situation like: Create a special suit that will make even very average sprinter unbeatable by anyone... except Usain Bolt. He can do it, so the suit isn't unfair and there's no problem?
Yes, Paladin is that suit...
Let me fix that analogy for you:
There's a guy in a neighborhood that is a competitive sprinter. He runs faster than every other neighbor, but in actual races against other sprinters he's just above average.
Nawasty, that thing you quoted is from before the ladder rework. No way that translates to the game today where all players reset to zero.
And I'm incredibly intoxicated, but I think depending on how the decks were played, there's a scenario where the decks outperform in the lower leagues, but narrow the difference in win rates as skill increases.
I see three computer screens at this point, so I could be wrong, but I think that could work.
Yes of course, as I said, I haven't seen data since the ladder rework. There's probably a bigger pool of high ranked ladder players nowadays
Aggro decks always outperform in lower leagues, since aggro deck are better at taking advantage of the poorly balanced decks, gimmick decks, and bad mulligans you may see at lower levels.
Mulligan is probably the best exemple of this. Even bad mulligans won't be punished by control decks, because they're slow, and the odds of drawing the right cards. But if you don't have a playable card by turn 3, no matter what your deck is trying to accomplish, you'll lose to aggro who can probably kill you by turn 5/6 (assuming you haven't played anything on your first three turns).
That would actually be a fun stat experiment to run.
One could fairly easily write a program to track a bunch of second order variables such as "in games where I have no turn 1 play, how is my win rate compared to overall win rate" and the like.
That would be interesting.
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Helpful Clarification on Forbidden Topics for Hearthstone Forums:
Enjoying Americans winning in the Olympics is forbidden because it is political. A 14 plus page discussion of state-sponsored lawsuits against a multi-national corporation based on harassment, discrimination, and wrongful death allegations is apparently not political enough to raise an issue.
Instead of complaining about win rates of separate classes the focus on win condition win rate is fundamentally more meaningful. Thereby looking at the nerfpolitics of devs. If the target audience complain, nerf will there be (to paraphrase Yoda). Apparently Mage was the target this time.
True, but the issue is much deeper. Some classes just can't work, because they lack proper toolset (Shaman, Warlock and to some extent also Priest) and we shouldn't expect the change to happen any time soon (maybe in mini expansion, but it will take few weeks). Until then, we can only count on balance changes.
These balance changes will not do anything to change the devs preferred win con availability. Diversity in that respect will bring much new competitive archetypes, but would probably slow down the game. That is what blizzard wants to avoid at all cost.
That's why Tickatus is not nerfed (to keep control at bay).
Tickatus is not nerfed because Warlock is too weak.
Exactly. Playing a rush Warrior deck, I laugh when my opponent (usually with some big, dramatic pause) drops Tickatus down like it's some back-breaking event. Congrats dude, you burned 5 cards from my deck. In return, I'm smashing your face for 12 damage and will kill you next turn with an Alexstrasza the Life-Binder to your face. But hey, whatever makes you feel special.
Tickatus is not nerfed because Warlock is too weak.
Exactly. Playing a rush Warrior deck, I laugh when my opponent (usually with some big, dramatic pause) drops Tickatus down like it's some back-breaking event. Congrats dude, you burned 5 cards from my deck. In return, I'm smashing your face for 12 damage and will kill you next turn with an Alexstrasza the Life-Binder to your face. But hey, whatever makes you feel special.
Yeah I often get emoted once they drop Tickatus down. I guess a lot of players expect an insta-concede once it's played. It is kinda funny though, that people still act like playing Tickatus is some super complex, big brain play.
That deck has a 69% win rate Bronze to Gold. It drops to below 60% at Diamond 1-4.
HSReplay is great but a lot of the free stats are next to useless.
The majority of players are Gold and below, so I don't think it's correct to ignore that segment. Their fun is not less important than your fun, even if they aren't as skilled or as tryhard as you.
I have no idea if the statement "the majority of players are Gold and below" is true and am not familiar with where one would go to find those stats, but regardless, their fun is equally important but their win rates are not.
If we're having a "nerf because it's not fun" discussion, no stats are necessary. If we're having a "nerf because of balance" discussion, we don't take stats from areas of the ladder where all of the better players remove themselves quite quickly by mechanics of the ladder.
And if someone is inclined to suggest that good players get stuck in Gold and below because of f2p considerations, Trump has put that argument to rest clearly and convincingly with the most recent f2Legend series.
Something like 5% of HS players are Diamond or above. It’s not about Paladin not being fun. If the deck is oppressive to 95% of the player base in terms of its win rate that’s not good for the game in the long run.
But almost all players at bronze to gold will have a sub 50% win rate regardless of the deck they are using. I don’t see how a deck can be oppressive when the person controlling it cannot string together enough wins to get to D5 with the win streak bonuses?
An that isn’t an elitist statement. The high win rates of decks at Bronze to Gold will be largely populated by players who spend very little time there. The ones who are left playing the deck there will not have a winrate anywhere close to 70%.
Yeah, I'm playing the Paladin secret deck some now at D5 and can't even get over a 50% win rate with the deck. Despite all of the crying here about this deck, it has one fatal flaw...it has basically no removal from hand. If you can't stick and buff minions, you basically lose to the entire meta right now. And guess what? The hardest thing to do in Hearthstone these days is to stick some minions given the massive amount of removal that's available. I mean even Face Hunter is running a bunch of removal (that just so happens to conveniently continue on to face).
If people are losing to it at the lower ranks, it's because they haven't learned to play around the secrets. Hey, guess what? Time to learn to play around secrets because it's part of the game and higher ranked players seem to work around them well enough.
How do you play against 0 mana counterspells in aggresive deck? You don't have time and mana for this, simple as that. With conviction Paladin can kill you turn 5 and you don't have much mass removal you can play with other spells at that time.
It's much easier for paladin to play around removal, paladin plays even nerubian deck recently which is just great for this. Or Moonfangs. Paladin has a lot of divine shields. If you cannot play around removal, stick one minion and make 1/1 a 11/11 in one turn to finish opponent than you just play it wrong.
Last 30 games - 10 Paladins, 7 Mages. It's disgusting.
The windfury murloc to 3 mana 3 health , and the 3 mana draw minion to 4 mana.these nerfs are absolute must! But the murloc is the "beast" of the deck.
How do you play against 0 mana counterspells in aggresive deck? You don't have time and mana for this, simple as that. With conviction Paladin can kill you turn 5 and you don't have much mass removal you can play with other spells at that time.
It's much easier for paladin to play around removal, paladin plays even nerubian deck recently which is just great for this. Or Moonfangs. Paladin has a lot of divine shields. If you cannot play around removal, stick one minion and make 1/1 a 11/11 in one turn to finish opponent than you just play it wrong.
Last 30 games - 10 Paladins, 7 Mages. It's disgusting.
What rank?
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@Nawasty
I have recently replaced one of the Primordials with a Taelan Fordring which has given the mid-game a little more beef (and protection from aggro).
Aside from that, I am pretty much continuing to play this deck as-is at the moment.
I'm genuinely curious, how would you nerf OMY? You can't nerf it by mana because it's a pala secret and those can only be 1 mana. Its effect is not scalable so you can't change that either (unless you want to change it to cast a spell that costs 1 more or something...which is pointless) so unless team 5 does a "give your charge minions +1 attack" kind of nerf, I really can't envision how OMY could be changed.
I believe there's a good way. Simply make the newly cast spell cost no mana. This way, player will lose his card (resource) but not mana (tempo) and won't automatically lose the game when there's lethal on board. Right now it's usually like this: I have 5 mana, Siphon Soul and Hysteria in my hand. I use the cheaper one, it gets Yogged and I don't have mana to use the other one, so it's over for me. If the first card were free, I'd have a chance.
Lower skill players complaining about strong decks, surprise surprise. Why not spend the time focusing on improving your gameplay to improve your winrate against strong decks rather than screaming for nerfs or the cycle simply continues. There's a reason as you approach high legend (top 200) that paladins win rate decreases substantially
Nawasty, that thing you quoted is from before the ladder rework. No way that translates to the game today where all players reset to zero.
And I'm incredibly intoxicated, but I think depending on how the decks were played, there's a scenario where the decks outperform in the lower leagues, but narrow the difference in win rates as skill increases.
I see three computer screens at this point, so I could be wrong, but I think that could work.
Helpful Clarification on Forbidden Topics for Hearthstone Forums:
Enjoying Americans winning in the Olympics is forbidden because it is political. A 14 plus page discussion of state-sponsored lawsuits against a multi-national corporation based on harassment, discrimination, and wrongful death allegations is apparently not political enough to raise an issue.
Because it's the situation like: Create a special suit that will make even very average sprinter unbeatable by anyone... except Usain Bolt. He can do it, so the suit isn't unfair and there's no problem?
Yes, Paladin is that suit...
It really isn't but if you feel that way, you feel that way I guess.
Let me fix that analogy for you:
There's a guy in a neighborhood that is a competitive sprinter. He runs faster than every other neighbor, but in actual races against other sprinters he's just above average.
That guy is post-nerf Paladin.
Yes of course, as I said, I haven't seen data since the ladder rework. There's probably a bigger pool of high ranked ladder players nowadays
Aggro decks always outperform in lower leagues, since aggro deck are better at taking advantage of the poorly balanced decks, gimmick decks, and bad mulligans you may see at lower levels.
Mulligan is probably the best exemple of this. Even bad mulligans won't be punished by control decks, because they're slow, and the odds of drawing the right cards. But if you don't have a playable card by turn 3, no matter what your deck is trying to accomplish, you'll lose to aggro who can probably kill you by turn 5/6 (assuming you haven't played anything on your first three turns).
That would actually be a fun stat experiment to run.
One could fairly easily write a program to track a bunch of second order variables such as "in games where I have no turn 1 play, how is my win rate compared to overall win rate" and the like.
That would be interesting.
Helpful Clarification on Forbidden Topics for Hearthstone Forums:
Enjoying Americans winning in the Olympics is forbidden because it is political. A 14 plus page discussion of state-sponsored lawsuits against a multi-national corporation based on harassment, discrimination, and wrongful death allegations is apparently not political enough to raise an issue.
These balance changes will not do anything to change the devs preferred win con availability. Diversity in that respect will bring much new competitive archetypes, but would probably slow down the game. That is what blizzard wants to avoid at all cost.
That's why Tickatus is not nerfed (to keep control at bay).
We make our world significant through the courage of our questions and the depth of our answers.
Tickatus is not nerfed because Warlock is too weak.
Exactly. Playing a rush Warrior deck, I laugh when my opponent (usually with some big, dramatic pause) drops Tickatus down like it's some back-breaking event. Congrats dude, you burned 5 cards from my deck. In return, I'm smashing your face for 12 damage and will kill you next turn with an Alexstrasza the Life-Binder to your face. But hey, whatever makes you feel special.
Yeah I often get emoted once they drop Tickatus down. I guess a lot of players expect an insta-concede once it's played. It is kinda funny though, that people still act like playing Tickatus is some super complex, big brain play.
But almost all players at bronze to gold will have a sub 50% win rate regardless of the deck they are using. I don’t see how a deck can be oppressive when the person controlling it cannot string together enough wins to get to D5 with the win streak bonuses?
An that isn’t an elitist statement. The high win rates of decks at Bronze to Gold will be largely populated by players who spend very little time there. The ones who are left playing the deck there will not have a winrate anywhere close to 70%.
Yeah, I'm playing the Paladin secret deck some now at D5 and can't even get over a 50% win rate with the deck. Despite all of the crying here about this deck, it has one fatal flaw...it has basically no removal from hand. If you can't stick and buff minions, you basically lose to the entire meta right now. And guess what? The hardest thing to do in Hearthstone these days is to stick some minions given the massive amount of removal that's available. I mean even Face Hunter is running a bunch of removal (that just so happens to conveniently continue on to face).
If people are losing to it at the lower ranks, it's because they haven't learned to play around the secrets. Hey, guess what? Time to learn to play around secrets because it's part of the game and higher ranked players seem to work around them well enough.
How do you play against 0 mana counterspells in aggresive deck? You don't have time and mana for this, simple as that. With conviction Paladin can kill you turn 5 and you don't have much mass removal you can play with other spells at that time.
It's much easier for paladin to play around removal, paladin plays even nerubian deck recently which is just great for this. Or Moonfangs. Paladin has a lot of divine shields. If you cannot play around removal, stick one minion and make 1/1 a 11/11 in one turn to finish opponent than you just play it wrong.
Last 30 games - 10 Paladins, 7 Mages. It's disgusting.
The windfury murloc to 3 mana 3 health , and the 3 mana draw minion to 4 mana.these nerfs are absolute must! But the murloc is the "beast" of the deck.
What rank?