WRT Paladin, the meta-game shifts considerably between "leagues" - the most recent VS report concludes that the best deck in Top 1000 Legend is Rush Warrior, while Secret Paladin is only marginally better than Secret Rogue, with a win-rate that tanks by about 7% compared to its performance in Diamond League, or Platinum, or 8-9% compared to Bronze through Gold. Only a single GM brought Paladin to this past weekend's GM tournament - it went 0-2. Each of Paladin's current crop of viable decks are fairly aggressive curve decks, and average or worse players will do well when they pilot them, inflating their win-rates as they regularly queue against other average or worse players who fumble decks which are more difficult to play - the higher you climb up the ladder, the worse the class seems to perform.
Stop repeating this thread. Stop posting irrelevant HSreplay stats.
Secret Paladin and Libram Paladin are tier 2 decks, along with Mage. The current decks to beat are Rush Warrior, Control Priest and whatever Rogues are doing.
Edit: I forgot about Hunter, which I don't know if it's tier 1 or 2, but it seems to be slightly better than Paladin.
If you follow tempostorm it’s the only tier 1 deck. So it’s all perspective.
Tempoatorm's latest meta snapshot is based on stats that are 2-3 weeks old and is based on nothing. If that doesn't convince you how off it is, the fact that their no2 deck is token Druid should be enough.
it's very rock-paper-scissors right now, seeing a vast increase in priests to beat paladins and then you get more warlocks who are trying to prey on priests (that's pretty much all they are good for). you sometimes see rush warrior too, although they can go toe to toe with paladin i still think paladin generally has the strongest early plays and so usually dictates the flow of the game
This Palladinstone is really annoying. Every second match is vs Palladin. This NEEDs to be changed for sure. I can’t understand people who refer to so called hi legend stats. Of cause there Pally is not best deck, true. Nobody plays it in Grandmasters. But hearthstone is NOT for several hundreds of pro players who can play really well around secrets etc. It’s for billions of casual guys who kinda fed up of this Pally meta. Decks with over 60 percent winrate should be nerfed. For my personal taste I don’t mind couple of nerfs buffs every month to shake meta and make it more healthy.
Compared to Undertaker hunter, Pirate Warrior, Secret Mage, Reno priest, Jade druid and all other broken decks in the past secret paladin is alright. It is not broken but one deck has to be top tier and this expansion it is secret paladin. Can easily be countered by Face hunter or rush warrior if you play smart enough
Most of all, I think we need at least one viable control deck, with reliable tools to stop aggression and real win condition to close slower games.
Priest is very good at controlling the board and... well, not dying, but he lacks win condition and that's why he loses to any slower deck with proper finisher.
Warlock has great win conditions (Tickatus, Jaraxxus, Envoy), but his control tools suck (overcosted and slow removals, no reliable healing, no draw beyond hero power, no card generation, no tempo).
Shaman could also be good, because he has pretty good toolset with solid heals and removals, but, as always, he also lacks draw, card generation and win condition.
Warrior has mediocre toolset and, as Priest and Shaman, he lacks win condition. Honestly, I think Team 5 doesn't want Warrior to be a control class anymore.
I'm a Paladin main, and the class feels busted. Out of some sort of misguided hipsterism I'm not even playing the Secret stuff, but even just things like Dude Paladin and Pure Paladin (with just Yrel as payoff) feels unfair. The class just has such high card quality that most other classes can't compete - it feels like every draw that doesn't involve you not being able to play cards is the nuts draw because the class just does such powerful stuff. Knight of Annointment, First Day of School, Hand of A'dal are all such bonkers cards, they feel like the sort of generically good auto include card that'd carry the class for an entire Standard cycle but would never be allowed to co-exist with equally good cards - sort of like how Sunkeeper Tarim was. Paladin's whole shtick has always been doing fair but efficient stuff and they're still doing that, none of their cards are "screw you, I win now", but there's too many high-quality options. It's a bad problem to have, because I don't think Blizzard can nerf any one card that feels justified: It's not like Lunacy Mage where there was a clearly defined problem card, it's just an issue of insanely high card quality.
I just really, really hope Equality doesn't get hit. I'm still sore about the nerf to 4 mana all those years ago and still think it should be 2 mana - but now's not the time to be BUFFING Paladin.
Thanks for giving your perspective, usually people who main the class being discussed are very defensive and dismissive. And what you say is true, Paladin just has too many cards that are very cheap and efficient compared to cards of other classes.
I was watching Trump's new F2P series yesterday where he's currently playing secret paladin and he's also constantly pointing out that all his mulligans are super strong and lucky. But in reality there are just so many strong low-cost cards in Paladin that a bad mulligan is pretty uncommon.
wtf cycle is draw... so paladin don't have draw other than 6 power crept draw cards but ofc they don't count because that is only draw 1... wtf dude heavy bias
Stop repeating this thread. Stop posting irrelevant HSreplay stats.
Secret Paladin and Libram Paladin are tier 2 decks, along with Mage. The current decks to beat are Rush Warrior, Control Priest and whatever Rogues are doing.
Edit: I forgot about Hunter, which I don't know if it's tier 1 or 2, but it seems to be slightly better than Paladin.
SO what's your data to pretend paladin isn't tier 1?
you must get your opinion from somewhere (does it start with an a?)
Are you paladin players that try to pretend you're not playing a tier 1 deck to feel better?
I haven't watched the entirety of GMs, but i'm pretty sure the second week was also full of paladin....
You are correct, i made a mistake.
Paladin decks are still tier 1, but the deck is definitely not busted, or anywhere close to "75% winrate" and it is actually on a downward trend as more people are slowly moving away from weaker decks and adjusting to the meta.
If you follow tempostorm it’s the only tier 1 deck. So it’s all perspective.
Tempoatorm's latest meta snapshot is based on stats that are 2-3 weeks old and is based on nothing. If that doesn't convince you how off it is, the fact that their no2 deck is token Druid should be enough.
Token druid is a solidly tier 2 deck so your argument is flawed. The snapshot is only 6 days old so not sure how their info is 2-3 weeks old.
wtf cycle is draw... so paladin don't have draw other than 6 power crept draw cards but ofc they don't count because that is only draw 1... wtf dude heavy bias
Paladin have limited ways to increase their hand size which makes them easier to run out of gas.
Previously powerful tempo decks like Rogue and Demon Hunter could go from top decking to holding 4-5 cards in hand, Paladin will struggle to do that.
If you follow tempostorm it’s the only tier 1 deck. So it’s all perspective.
Tempoatorm's latest meta snapshot is based on stats that are 2-3 weeks old and is based on nothing. If that doesn't convince you how off it is, the fact that their no2 deck is token Druid should be enough.
Token druid is a solidly tier 2 deck so your argument is flawed. The snapshot is only 6 days old so not sure how their info is 2-3 weeks old.
Tempostorm doesn't use data for their tier list, so it is worse than other tier lists like HSreplay and VS report. But Paladin is T1 broken in all of them.
The biggest problem with Paladin is their early game. The have some the most powerful early game cards that all synergise with each other I have ever seen in HS. There have been early game broken cards in the past but nothing as consistent as Paladin right now. First Day of School is a really over-tuned card, playing cards for zero mana has historically been bad news. Unless it's a heal or a delay tactic they are usually broken. Also playing a 3/4 and tutoring a minion (for only 3 mana) is also too powerful when the requirement of having a secret in play is so easy to fulfil.
Consistency is the key problem, where as other decks "might" have a good early game, Paladins "will" have an good early game and it's so hard for most decks to recover from the powerful plays they have in the first few turns.
Stop repeating this thread. Stop posting irrelevant HSreplay stats.
Secret Paladin and Libram Paladin are tier 2 decks, along with Mage. The current decks to beat are Rush Warrior, Control Priest and whatever Rogues are doing.
Edit: I forgot about Hunter, which I don't know if it's tier 1 or 2, but it seems to be slightly better than Paladin.
you must get your opinion from somewhere (does it start with an a?)
Are you paladin players that try to pretend you're not playing a tier 1 deck to feel better?
I haven't watched the entirety of GMs, but i'm pretty sure the second week was also full of paladin....
Its not true other decks are not ebven close. Sorry man but you are wrong. Warrior rogue and priest are doing quite good against paladin and are as strong as pala.
Paladin has a problem, and it is that you have a countdown over your head that says :in turn 9 you are gonna get rekt by a pyroblast that leaves an 8/8 on field
I just don’t see how this class is seen as being ok in the current meta of standard and blizz are just happy to leave them untouched.
The nerf to sword of the fallen has had basically no change to their win rate, with some secret paladin decks averaging a staggering 75% win rate!
This class has everything from good draw, board flood, heals, overpowered secrets, and taunts. Both Secret and Aggro Paladin decks have no counter, and just seem to have an answer to everything.
I can’t see how blizzard are just happy to leave them dominating the meta in their current state, it’s just boring and discouraging for people trying to be creative and do something different!
Do we thing there will be an impending nerf to Paladins? Unless there are some planned buffs coming to other cards I can’t see how this can continue.
They nerfed the deck once already, so it's not really being "left untouched". Whether that nerf was "enough" or not, that's what they need to wait for some time to see, to verify if the changes have enough of an impact or whether they have to consider more (or in some rare cases, fewer) changes to make the deck balanced enough.
They are unlikely to re-nerf it again so quickly after a previous nerf, but will most likely be watching the incoming data.
Regarding decks that have a 75% win rate, (assuming you are talking about results on HSReplay), this more often than not is based only upon a few thousand or so games, which is nowhere near enough to get a proper representation of the deck strength. I've seen decks that have showcased an 80+% win rate for the first couple of thousand games, and have then plummeted as other people pick up the deck and realise it's not as good as it looked. Of course, if there are decks performing to that standard (75%+) with 50,000+ games played, then it's likely to grab Blizzard's attention more.
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WRT Paladin, the meta-game shifts considerably between "leagues" - the most recent VS report concludes that the best deck in Top 1000 Legend is Rush Warrior, while Secret Paladin is only marginally better than Secret Rogue, with a win-rate that tanks by about 7% compared to its performance in Diamond League, or Platinum, or 8-9% compared to Bronze through Gold. Only a single GM brought Paladin to this past weekend's GM tournament - it went 0-2. Each of Paladin's current crop of viable decks are fairly aggressive curve decks, and average or worse players will do well when they pilot them, inflating their win-rates as they regularly queue against other average or worse players who fumble decks which are more difficult to play - the higher you climb up the ladder, the worse the class seems to perform.
SO what's your data to pretend paladin isn't tier 1?
No because if you're saying the data from hsreplay, from tempo storm, is bad... and i'll guess i'll add VS's data too while i'm at it : https://www.vicioussyndicate.com/vs-data-reaper-report-193/
you must get your opinion from somewhere (does it start with an a?)
Are you paladin players that try to pretend you're not playing a tier 1 deck to feel better?
I haven't watched the entirety of GMs, but i'm pretty sure the second week was also full of paladin....
Tempoatorm's latest meta snapshot is based on stats that are 2-3 weeks old and is based on nothing. If that doesn't convince you how off it is, the fact that their no2 deck is token Druid should be enough.
it's very rock-paper-scissors right now, seeing a vast increase in priests to beat paladins and then you get more warlocks who are trying to prey on priests (that's pretty much all they are good for). you sometimes see rush warrior too, although they can go toe to toe with paladin i still think paladin generally has the strongest early plays and so usually dictates the flow of the game
This Palladinstone is really annoying. Every second match is vs Palladin. This NEEDs to be changed for sure. I can’t understand people who refer to so called hi legend stats. Of cause there Pally is not best deck, true. Nobody plays it in Grandmasters. But hearthstone is NOT for several hundreds of pro players who can play really well around secrets etc. It’s for billions of casual guys who kinda fed up of this Pally meta. Decks with over 60 percent winrate should be nerfed. For my personal taste I don’t mind couple of nerfs buffs every month to shake meta and make it more healthy.
Compared to Undertaker hunter, Pirate Warrior, Secret Mage, Reno priest, Jade druid and all other broken decks in the past secret paladin is alright. It is not broken but one deck has to be top tier and this expansion it is secret paladin. Can easily be countered by Face hunter or rush warrior if you play smart enough
Most of all, I think we need at least one viable control deck, with reliable tools to stop aggression and real win condition to close slower games.
Priest is very good at controlling the board and... well, not dying, but he lacks win condition and that's why he loses to any slower deck with proper finisher.
Warlock has great win conditions (Tickatus, Jaraxxus, Envoy), but his control tools suck (overcosted and slow removals, no reliable healing, no draw beyond hero power, no card generation, no tempo).
Shaman could also be good, because he has pretty good toolset with solid heals and removals, but, as always, he also lacks draw, card generation and win condition.
Warrior has mediocre toolset and, as Priest and Shaman, he lacks win condition. Honestly, I think Team 5 doesn't want Warrior to be a control class anymore.
I'm a Paladin main, and the class feels busted. Out of some sort of misguided hipsterism I'm not even playing the Secret stuff, but even just things like Dude Paladin and Pure Paladin (with just Yrel as payoff) feels unfair. The class just has such high card quality that most other classes can't compete - it feels like every draw that doesn't involve you not being able to play cards is the nuts draw because the class just does such powerful stuff. Knight of Annointment, First Day of School, Hand of A'dal are all such bonkers cards, they feel like the sort of generically good auto include card that'd carry the class for an entire Standard cycle but would never be allowed to co-exist with equally good cards - sort of like how Sunkeeper Tarim was. Paladin's whole shtick has always been doing fair but efficient stuff and they're still doing that, none of their cards are "screw you, I win now", but there's too many high-quality options. It's a bad problem to have, because I don't think Blizzard can nerf any one card that feels justified: It's not like Lunacy Mage where there was a clearly defined problem card, it's just an issue of insanely high card quality.
I just really, really hope Equality doesn't get hit. I'm still sore about the nerf to 4 mana all those years ago and still think it should be 2 mana - but now's not the time to be BUFFING Paladin.
Thanks for giving your perspective, usually people who main the class being discussed are very defensive and dismissive. And what you say is true, Paladin just has too many cards that are very cheap and efficient compared to cards of other classes.
I was watching Trump's new F2P series yesterday where he's currently playing secret paladin and he's also constantly pointing out that all his mulligans are super strong and lucky. But in reality there are just so many strong low-cost cards in Paladin that a bad mulligan is pretty uncommon.
wtf cycle is draw... so paladin don't have draw other than 6 power crept draw cards but ofc they don't count because that is only draw 1... wtf dude heavy bias
Wtf is this? Paladin decks have +75% WR wtf
You are correct, i made a mistake.
Paladin decks are still tier 1, but the deck is definitely not busted, or anywhere close to "75% winrate" and it is actually on a downward trend as more people are slowly moving away from weaker decks and adjusting to the meta.
Token druid is a solidly tier 2 deck so your argument is flawed. The snapshot is only 6 days old so not sure how their info is 2-3 weeks old.
Paladin have limited ways to increase their hand size which makes them easier to run out of gas.
Previously powerful tempo decks like Rogue and Demon Hunter could go from top decking to holding 4-5 cards in hand, Paladin will struggle to do that.
Tempostorm doesn't use data for their tier list, so it is worse than other tier lists like HSreplay and VS report. But Paladin is T1 broken in all of them.
The biggest problem with Paladin is their early game. The have some the most powerful early game cards that all synergise with each other I have ever seen in HS. There have been early game broken cards in the past but nothing as consistent as Paladin right now. First Day of School is a really over-tuned card, playing cards for zero mana has historically been bad news. Unless it's a heal or a delay tactic they are usually broken. Also playing a 3/4 and tutoring a minion (for only 3 mana) is also too powerful when the requirement of having a secret in play is so easy to fulfil.
Consistency is the key problem, where as other decks "might" have a good early game, Paladins "will" have an good early game and it's so hard for most decks to recover from the powerful plays they have in the first few turns.
Its not true other decks are not ebven close. Sorry man but you are wrong. Warrior rogue and priest are doing quite good against paladin and are as strong as pala.
now go try to be funny to someone else.
its just absurd.everybody playing only this broken bullsh$% on ladder.no fun at all.
Paladin has a problem, and it is that you have a countdown over your head that says :in turn 9 you are gonna get rekt by a pyroblast that leaves an 8/8 on field
They nerfed the deck once already, so it's not really being "left untouched". Whether that nerf was "enough" or not, that's what they need to wait for some time to see, to verify if the changes have enough of an impact or whether they have to consider more (or in some rare cases, fewer) changes to make the deck balanced enough.
They are unlikely to re-nerf it again so quickly after a previous nerf, but will most likely be watching the incoming data.
Regarding decks that have a 75% win rate, (assuming you are talking about results on HSReplay), this more often than not is based only upon a few thousand or so games, which is nowhere near enough to get a proper representation of the deck strength. I've seen decks that have showcased an 80+% win rate for the first couple of thousand games, and have then plummeted as other people pick up the deck and realise it's not as good as it looked.
Of course, if there are decks performing to that standard (75%+) with 50,000+ games played, then it's likely to grab Blizzard's attention more.