Probably not the first to whine about this, but it hardly seems fair that Mage can cycle through it's entire deck by turn 5 and kill me with Mozaki, Sorcerer's Apprentice and Incanter's Flow.
Make Refreshing Spring Water refresh 1 mana or make it discard card at random from your hand at the end of your turn (only the turn you play it). So you can't use it on your non-combo turns.
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"Minion to minion the basic of all combats, only a fool trusts his win to an OTK"
Yeah, it's already incredibly oppressive in Standard, but in wild it is an entirely different kind of oppressive... The fact this issue has not yet been adressed by Blizzard only proves that they don't care about wild at all.
Rogues and Druids (and to a lesser extent Warlocks) have been doing the deck cycling thing for a long time in previous expansions - Gadgetzan Auctioneer has been a central figure in that regard for a long time.
That said, the OP Post probably belongs in the Salt thread, but I'll let it be for the moment and see how this progresses.
I can confirm it: playing mozaki mage is, in fact, a lot of fun. Thanks for your concern.
Really though, this is less so the case for classic (and probably a bit more the case for standard) but I always go back to what Dane said: "If you want to play Wild accept only one person is going to have fun and it's probably not going to be you.". The sooner you realise that the better off you'll be, in all honesty.
And cards costing mana in wild has always been a mild suggestion more so than an actual fact. Cheating mana is the only way to consistently win in wild in almost all cases. So to come back to your original question, yes, playing mage is a lot of fun. Playingagainst mage, isn't. Swap mage for basically every other class (other than hunter because...well, hunter) and it'll hold true for most people.
Yeah, it's already incredibly oppressive in Standard, but in wild it is an entirely different kind of oppressive... The fact this issue has not yet been adressed by Blizzard only proves that they don't care about wild at all.
How is it anywhere near being oppresive in standard if apprentice is not there anymore?
Rogues and Druids (and to a lesser extent Warlocks) have been doing the deck cycling thing for a long time in previous expansions - Gadgetzan Auctioneer has been a central figure in that regard for a long time.
That said, the OP Post probably belongs in the Salt thread, but I'll let it be for the moment and see how this progresses.
Mage desperately needs a nerf in wild. My friend just told me now diamond 1-4 is almost 100% otk flamewaker mage and theres no counters. Even aggro loses to otk mage.
Rogues and Druids (and to a lesser extent Warlocks) have been doing the deck cycling thing for a long time in previous expansions - Gadgetzan Auctioneer has been a central figure in that regard for a long time.
That said, the OP Post probably belongs in the Salt thread, but I'll let it be for the moment and see how this progresses.
hey guys, lets not talk about an oppressive unfun deck that ruins standard which blizzard had the opportunity to nerf but could not understand that refreshing spring water is a ridiculously OP card. Let's keep those posts in the nerd rage ghetto so people are not confronted with things like this.
Also, if you think Gadgeteer is similar to RSW in power level.......just lol.
Mage desperately needs a nerf in wild. My friend just told me now diamond 1-4 is almost 100% otk flamewaker mage and theres no counters. Even aggro loses to otk mage.
Idk how people are still not getting it, mage/priest are the most played classes since they require significantly less skill to pilot any kind of deck and as long they are broken, they wont do a thing about it. When other class contest these two spots, it gets nerfed asap.
Mage desperately needs a nerf in wild. My friend just told me now diamond 1-4 is almost 100% otk flamewaker mage and theres no counters. Even aggro loses to otk mage.
I don't know who your friend is but he lied to you, there are plenty of counters to flamewaker mage, and not just aggro.
I don't see any reason to nerf a deck that does NOTHING but draw cards for 6-7 turns then goes off with an "OTK" that needs to go through your board before it hits your face.
Odd warrior counters it. Any variant works, tempo, OTK or control.
Renolock counters it. (tested this myself, Skull of the Man'ari builds a giant board that they can't deal with)
I am 100% confident that bad players are just over reacting, this deck is not dangerous at all, be it the flamewaker or mozaki variant.
Also, it's a deck that requires a lot of skill to play correctly I think, they have to use as little spells as possible before they get to their combo, it's not easy. It's a combo deck after all.
Jesus, you can even counter flamewaker mage with a Crossroads Watch Post, how could this be a broken deck LOL.
So there is a nerf for you, the meta will shift to counter flamewaker mage and you will not hear about it ever again, they'll go back to quest mage or renomage shenaningans.
There are so many ways for mage to build combo decks that go face anyway, you could nerf Flamewaker and Mozaki to oblivion and it wouldn't make any difference. I have one currently that is just using all the face damage spells + Aegwynn, the Guardian + Saronite Chain Gang / Doppelgangster (gets double/triple aegwynn effect).
Rogues and Druids (and to a lesser extent Warlocks) have been doing the deck cycling thing for a long time in previous expansions - Gadgetzan Auctioneer has been a central figure in that regard for a long time.
That said, the OP Post probably belongs in the Salt thread, but I'll let it be for the moment and see how this progresses.
hey guys, lets not talk about an oppressive unfun deck that ruins standard which blizzard had the opportunity to nerf but could not understand that refreshing spring water is a ridiculously OP card. Let's keep those posts in the nerd rage ghetto so people are not confronted with things like this.
Also, if you think Gadgeteer is similar to RSW in power level.......just lol.
Oh, you're saying you WANT this kind of discussion to be curtailed and ignored, and not given the reasonable benefit of the doubt - you know, like I LITERALLY just did right there? Maybe rethink your opinion on that one? You seemed to respond in haste.
Also, nobody compared power levels of anything, merely mechanics and decks that use that sort of mechanic. (Or specifically, a card that allows them to). Honestly, if you're not even going to read the posts properly.... yikes...!
Mage desperately needs a nerf in wild. My friend just told me now diamond 1-4 is almost 100% otk flamewaker mage and theres no counters. Even aggro loses to otk mage.
If a deck had no counters, as your friend claims, it would be prevalent through the entire meta, not relegated to a minor section of it. And everyone would only play that deck, knowing that there was no other deck that could beat it (barring the mirror).
I think your friend might be exaggerating a little. Maybe to impress you...?
I believe that it's not about Mozaki Mage or any other deck in particular, but rather about HS current philosophy. Balance and power level aside, playing against most meta decks just feels frustrating and annoying. Tons of draw, mana cheating, burn from hand, unblockable effects, constant aggression etc. And worst is, that board becomes more and more redundant, since for many decks it doesn't even matter anymore. Sometimes I wonder if both players are still playing together or just doing their own thing separately...
I believe that it's not about Mozaki Mage or any other deck in particular, but rather about HS current philosophy. Balance and power level aside, playing against most meta decks just feels frustrating and annoying. Tons of draw, mana cheating, burn from hand, unblockable effects, constant aggression etc. And worst is, that board becomes more and more redundant, since for many decks it doesn't even matter anymore. Sometimes I wonder if both players are still playing together or just doing their own thing separately...
This really encapsulates how I feel actually.
My favorite deck being a very board strong Elemental Shaman, it kinda sucks when I just get blasted away by some deck with zero counterplay
Like, a Big Priest I can at least try to Hex his stuff xD
To answer the question: yes, mage is fun. Oops, does that make me a low skilled player?
I don't play wild, but I imagine this is more where the complaint is coming from. And to that, I really just feel like Blizzard doesn't care about wild, and people should accept that it will always be a broken mess of decks that are way overtuned with overpowered synergies.
They separated standard and wild because it's too much trouble to balance all the cards they've ever made with each other.
To answer the question: yes, mage is fun. Oops, does that make me a low skilled player?
I don't play wild, but I imagine this is more where the complaint is coming from. And to that, I really just feel like Blizzard doesn't care about wild, and people should accept that it will always be a broken mess of decks that are way overtuned with overpowered synergies.
They separated standard and wild because it's too much trouble to balance all the cards they've ever made with each other.
When everyone is a super hero, nobody is. That's how Wild works.
Blizzard does care about Wild balance, but in a different way than Standard. It's more polarized, but not more unbalanced. Standard decks are pretty much incomplete decks, while Wild decks achieved critical mass. Standard balance specifically aims to prevent the critical mass, while Wild balance only aims to prevent early game OTKs with no counterplay. And to be honest not every viable wild deck is a broken overtuned mess, not every game ends on turn 5, actually I feel like games last longer in Wild than Standard on average. Stuff like Odd warrior is running pretty "fair" card, nothing to generate entire boards or hands out of nowhere, just pretty good control cards.
And even the completely degenerate control decks that generate absurd amounts of value and tempo like say Renolock, or the crazy combo decks that go off as soon as turn 7-8, they still have plenty of weaknesses to some archetypes, some tech cards, something.
Blizzard always react quickly when a new combo appears that has nearly no counterplay, like Wretched Tiller OTK or when they nerfed the echo keyword. They couldn't balance Wild like they balance Standard even if they wanted anyway. They'd need to butcher hundreds of cards.
Consider that Wild has endless deck building possibilies, and I truly mean endless, there are hundreds of viable decks, some of them that have never been seen in a standard format, and for any given deck there are thousands of possible variations, you can even turn an archetype into another with the right changes... Knowing that, it's pretty impressive that the Wild format is still viable.
What is most funny to me is the decks people complain the most about, like spell mage, secret mage, rez priest.. are nowhere near the most OP decks you can encounter. They just have weak matchups and think it's because of a state of imbalance, they don't realize most matchups are extremely polarized by design. Odd mage for example, it's a total meme, pretty weak deck overall you will lose to even shit standard decks, yet it's a good matchup against secret mage.
When we get to yu-gi-oh levels of bullshit and turn 1 OTKs, I will agree, Blizzard doesn't care about Wild. But to this day they still care, it's still very much playable and enjoyable, if you have a good collection of cards and know what you're doing in the deck builder.
"meta" truly means nothing in Wild, you can take new powercreeped cards and build an old deck out of nowhere that has not been seen in years, or make crazy variations of known meta decks, and get legend with that because it's going to be good against one of the meta decks, due to the very polarized nature of the format. It's a deck builders dream.
By the way, if you enjoy mage, you should ABSOLUTELY play Wild. The things mage can do in wild... It's just endless. I think mage and warlock are the classes that benefit the most from the huge pool of cards, especially the reno archetype. I can literally build 5 different renomage decks that don't share a single card besides Reno Zephrys and Kazakus. And they will all be strong enough to climb the ladder.
To answer the question: yes, mage is fun. Oops, does that make me a low skilled player?
I don't play wild, but I imagine this is more where the complaint is coming from. And to that, I really just feel like Blizzard doesn't care about wild, and people should accept that it will always be a broken mess of decks that are way overtuned with overpowered synergies.
They separated standard and wild because it's too much trouble to balance all the cards they've ever made with each other.
Blizzard does care about Wild balance, but in a different way than Standard. It's more polarized, but not more unbalanced. Standard decks are pretty much incomplete decks, while Wild decks achieved critical mass. Standard balance specifically aims to prevent the critical mass, while Wild balance only aims to prevent early game OTKs with no counterplay. And to be honest not every viable wild deck is a broken overtuned mess, not every game ends on turn 5, actually I feel like games last longer in Wild than Standard on average. Stuff like Odd warrior is running pretty "fair" card, nothing to generate entire boards or hands out of nowhere, just pretty good control cards.
By the way, if you enjoy mage, you should ABSOLUTELY play Wild. The things mage can do in wild... It's just endless. I think mage and warlock are the classes that benefit the most from the huge pool of cards, especially the reno archetype. I can literally build 5 different renomage decks that don't share a single card besides Reno Zephrys and Kazakus. And they will all be strong enough to climb the ladder.
Well, you've made some really good points all around. I guess it's not fair to say wild goes completely unchecked.
I've actually really wanted to step into wild and see how it felt, but it's been difficult because all the decks I'm considering playing all at least require 2-3 wild legendaries and I'm just not sure it's an investment I want to make to "try" it out. Also, they wouldn't be able to get me to wild legend, if my understanding of the meta is correct.
If they ever considered reducing the cost of wild packs or something, it would really help people like me get a footing there.
To round it back to OP's original point though, decks like flamewaker/mozaki mage and secret mage (though not mentioned here, I assume is still very strong) incidentally are decks that I could build fairly cheaply right now, but they aren't ones that I'm that interested in playing. I wonder if their prevalence is also linked to the fact that they can be crafted for a relatively low amount of dust. Like aggro decks in standard.
To round it back to OP's original point though, decks like flamewaker/mozaki mage and secret mage (though not mentioned here, I assume is still very strong) incidentally are decks that I could build fairly cheaply right now, but they aren't ones that I'm that interested in playing. I wonder if their prevalence is also linked to the fact that they can be crafted for a relatively low amount of dust. Like aggro decks in standard.
Yes, this is most likely why they are so popular, because even players who don't usually care about Wild can step in and give it a try. I don't know about mozaki mage though, it's a pretty hard deck to pilot and you have to craft mozaki,
On the opposite end of the spectrum, there is my Renolock deck with 16 legendary and 4 epic cards.
And yes I understand why Wild can feel scary or overwhelming if you lack the cards you need/want, probably something they'll never fix. If they make Wild packs cheaper, then people would just wait until everything rotates and wouldn't care about standard anymore. But even with a standard collection and just a couple key wild cards you can build some impressive decks, after all the newer cards are way stronger than older cards on average, and can unlock untapped potential too. I'm sure you have at least some of these key wild cards, like Reno Jackson or Baku the Mooneater.
However I would definitely advise against crafting any wild legendary, especially class ones, if you don't play the format on a regular basis and wish to stay competitive in standard.
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Probably not the first to whine about this, but it hardly seems fair that Mage can cycle through it's entire deck by turn 5 and kill me with Mozaki, Sorcerer's Apprentice and Incanter's Flow.
Remember when cards costed Mana?
Fuhgeddaboudit
Make Refreshing Spring Water refresh 1 mana or make it discard card at random from your hand at the end of your turn (only the turn you play it). So you can't use it on your non-combo turns.
"Minion to minion the basic of all combats, only a fool trusts his win to an OTK"
Yeah, it's already incredibly oppressive in Standard, but in wild it is an entirely different kind of oppressive... The fact this issue has not yet been adressed by Blizzard only proves that they don't care about wild at all.
Rogues and Druids (and to a lesser extent Warlocks) have been doing the deck cycling thing for a long time in previous expansions - Gadgetzan Auctioneer has been a central figure in that regard for a long time.
That said, the OP Post probably belongs in the Salt thread, but I'll let it be for the moment and see how this progresses.
I can confirm it: playing mozaki mage is, in fact, a lot of fun. Thanks for your concern.
Really though, this is less so the case for classic (and probably a bit more the case for standard) but I always go back to what Dane said: "If you want to play Wild accept only one person is going to have fun and it's probably not going to be you.". The sooner you realise that the better off you'll be, in all honesty.
And cards costing mana in wild has always been a mild suggestion more so than an actual fact. Cheating mana is the only way to consistently win in wild in almost all cases. So to come back to your original question, yes, playing mage is a lot of fun. Playing against mage, isn't. Swap mage for basically every other class (other than hunter because...well, hunter) and it'll hold true for most people.
How is it anywhere near being oppresive in standard if apprentice is not there anymore?
😇
Fuhgeddaboudit
Mage desperately needs a nerf in wild. My friend just told me now diamond 1-4 is almost 100% otk flamewaker mage and theres no counters. Even aggro loses to otk mage.
hey guys, lets not talk about an oppressive unfun deck that ruins standard which blizzard had the opportunity to nerf but could not understand that refreshing spring water is a ridiculously OP card. Let's keep those posts in the nerd rage ghetto so people are not confronted with things like this.
Also, if you think Gadgeteer is similar to RSW in power level.......just lol.
Idk how people are still not getting it, mage/priest are the most played classes since they require significantly less skill to pilot any kind of deck and as long they are broken, they wont do a thing about it. When other class contest these two spots, it gets nerfed asap.
I don't know who your friend is but he lied to you, there are plenty of counters to flamewaker mage, and not just aggro.
I don't see any reason to nerf a deck that does NOTHING but draw cards for 6-7 turns then goes off with an "OTK" that needs to go through your board before it hits your face.
Aggro does counter it.
Dirty Rat / Hecklebot / Deathlord / counter it.
Odd warrior counters it. Any variant works, tempo, OTK or control.
Renolock counters it. (tested this myself, Skull of the Man'ari builds a giant board that they can't deal with)
I am 100% confident that bad players are just over reacting, this deck is not dangerous at all, be it the flamewaker or mozaki variant.
Also, it's a deck that requires a lot of skill to play correctly I think, they have to use as little spells as possible before they get to their combo, it's not easy. It's a combo deck after all.
Jesus, you can even counter flamewaker mage with a Crossroads Watch Post, how could this be a broken deck LOL.
So there is a nerf for you, the meta will shift to counter flamewaker mage and you will not hear about it ever again, they'll go back to quest mage or renomage shenaningans.
There are so many ways for mage to build combo decks that go face anyway, you could nerf Flamewaker and Mozaki to oblivion and it wouldn't make any difference. I have one currently that is just using all the face damage spells + Aegwynn, the Guardian + Saronite Chain Gang / Doppelgangster (gets double/triple aegwynn effect).
And it's not like I even NEED the spell damage bonus, with Frostbolt, Ice Lance, Runed Orb, Forgotten Torch and Fireball, I have 48 damage already.
Oh, you're saying you WANT this kind of discussion to be curtailed and ignored, and not given the reasonable benefit of the doubt - you know, like I LITERALLY just did right there?
Maybe rethink your opinion on that one? You seemed to respond in haste.
Also, nobody compared power levels of anything, merely mechanics and decks that use that sort of mechanic. (Or specifically, a card that allows them to). Honestly, if you're not even going to read the posts properly.... yikes...!
/smh
Where we going we don't need no mana.
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If a deck had no counters, as your friend claims, it would be prevalent through the entire meta, not relegated to a minor section of it. And everyone would only play that deck, knowing that there was no other deck that could beat it (barring the mirror).
I think your friend might be exaggerating a little. Maybe to impress you...?
I believe that it's not about Mozaki Mage or any other deck in particular, but rather about HS current philosophy. Balance and power level aside, playing against most meta decks just feels frustrating and annoying. Tons of draw, mana cheating, burn from hand, unblockable effects, constant aggression etc. And worst is, that board becomes more and more redundant, since for many decks it doesn't even matter anymore. Sometimes I wonder if both players are still playing together or just doing their own thing separately...
This really encapsulates how I feel actually.
My favorite deck being a very board strong Elemental Shaman, it kinda sucks when I just get blasted away by some deck with zero counterplay
Like, a Big Priest I can at least try to Hex his stuff xD
Fuhgeddaboudit
To answer the question: yes, mage is fun. Oops, does that make me a low skilled player?
I don't play wild, but I imagine this is more where the complaint is coming from. And to that, I really just feel like Blizzard doesn't care about wild, and people should accept that it will always be a broken mess of decks that are way overtuned with overpowered synergies.
They separated standard and wild because it's too much trouble to balance all the cards they've ever made with each other.
When everyone is a super hero, nobody is. That's how Wild works.
Blizzard does care about Wild balance, but in a different way than Standard. It's more polarized, but not more unbalanced. Standard decks are pretty much incomplete decks, while Wild decks achieved critical mass. Standard balance specifically aims to prevent the critical mass, while Wild balance only aims to prevent early game OTKs with no counterplay. And to be honest not every viable wild deck is a broken overtuned mess, not every game ends on turn 5, actually I feel like games last longer in Wild than Standard on average. Stuff like Odd warrior is running pretty "fair" card, nothing to generate entire boards or hands out of nowhere, just pretty good control cards.
And even the completely degenerate control decks that generate absurd amounts of value and tempo like say Renolock, or the crazy combo decks that go off as soon as turn 7-8, they still have plenty of weaknesses to some archetypes, some tech cards, something.
Blizzard always react quickly when a new combo appears that has nearly no counterplay, like Wretched Tiller OTK or when they nerfed the echo keyword. They couldn't balance Wild like they balance Standard even if they wanted anyway. They'd need to butcher hundreds of cards.
Consider that Wild has endless deck building possibilies, and I truly mean endless, there are hundreds of viable decks, some of them that have never been seen in a standard format, and for any given deck there are thousands of possible variations, you can even turn an archetype into another with the right changes... Knowing that, it's pretty impressive that the Wild format is still viable.
What is most funny to me is the decks people complain the most about, like spell mage, secret mage, rez priest.. are nowhere near the most OP decks you can encounter. They just have weak matchups and think it's because of a state of imbalance, they don't realize most matchups are extremely polarized by design. Odd mage for example, it's a total meme, pretty weak deck overall you will lose to even shit standard decks, yet it's a good matchup against secret mage.
When we get to yu-gi-oh levels of bullshit and turn 1 OTKs, I will agree, Blizzard doesn't care about Wild. But to this day they still care, it's still very much playable and enjoyable, if you have a good collection of cards and know what you're doing in the deck builder.
"meta" truly means nothing in Wild, you can take new powercreeped cards and build an old deck out of nowhere that has not been seen in years, or make crazy variations of known meta decks, and get legend with that because it's going to be good against one of the meta decks, due to the very polarized nature of the format. It's a deck builders dream.
By the way, if you enjoy mage, you should ABSOLUTELY play Wild. The things mage can do in wild... It's just endless. I think mage and warlock are the classes that benefit the most from the huge pool of cards, especially the reno archetype. I can literally build 5 different renomage decks that don't share a single card besides Reno Zephrys and Kazakus. And they will all be strong enough to climb the ladder.
Well, you've made some really good points all around. I guess it's not fair to say wild goes completely unchecked.
I've actually really wanted to step into wild and see how it felt, but it's been difficult because all the decks I'm considering playing all at least require 2-3 wild legendaries and I'm just not sure it's an investment I want to make to "try" it out. Also, they wouldn't be able to get me to wild legend, if my understanding of the meta is correct.
If they ever considered reducing the cost of wild packs or something, it would really help people like me get a footing there.
To round it back to OP's original point though, decks like flamewaker/mozaki mage and secret mage (though not mentioned here, I assume is still very strong) incidentally are decks that I could build fairly cheaply right now, but they aren't ones that I'm that interested in playing. I wonder if their prevalence is also linked to the fact that they can be crafted for a relatively low amount of dust. Like aggro decks in standard.
Yes, this is most likely why they are so popular, because even players who don't usually care about Wild can step in and give it a try. I don't know about mozaki mage though, it's a pretty hard deck to pilot and you have to craft mozaki,
On the opposite end of the spectrum, there is my Renolock deck with 16 legendary and 4 epic cards.
And yes I understand why Wild can feel scary or overwhelming if you lack the cards you need/want, probably something they'll never fix. If they make Wild packs cheaper, then people would just wait until everything rotates and wouldn't care about standard anymore. But even with a standard collection and just a couple key wild cards you can build some impressive decks, after all the newer cards are way stronger than older cards on average, and can unlock untapped potential too. I'm sure you have at least some of these key wild cards, like Reno Jackson or Baku the Mooneater.
However I would definitely advise against crafting any wild legendary, especially class ones, if you don't play the format on a regular basis and wish to stay competitive in standard.