No, it's not great by any means and above gold it becomes utterly unplayable (in standard). You might not agree with me, yet guys from Vicious Syndicate have exactly the same opinion about this deck. Of course, they are not always right, but usually they are.
I don't even know what vicious syndicate is and don't really care to be honest, especially if they claim that something is utterly unplayable, they are not worthy of my curiosity. I'm sure they're right that warlock is bad in this meta, I wouldn't be the one who opposes data, I trust data.
I'm in diamond and it's playable just fine, I have good matchups against paladin, mage, warrior, priest, tempo rogue, mirror. Only hunter is really hard to beat (and weapon rogue but i never see it), but far from unbeatable. Hunter being the deck I see the most when I play control warlock, data will say that my deck is bad in this meta. Data will also say that my deck is good against most classes in the game.
Hopelly you got my point. You are right. And I am right. Control warlock sucks, but is also an extremely good deck. It's a matter of perception.
And good cards are good cards no matter what state of the meta, no matter what state of mind. You can't disagree that all the cards I listed above are top tier power level.
Warlock package is absurd. Jarraxus buff is way too strong given there is no other hero card available.
NERF CASCADING DISASTER !
LMAO imagine crying because Cascading Disaster, one of the most impractical Warlock removals ever printed, you only think it's busted because of Y'Shaarj, the Defiler. I'd love to read your comments during the time Defile was in Standard....
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I love you Dreadsteed, I will never disenchant you!
How about buffs instead? Make Mana Tide Totem a 2-drop. Put Hex back to 3 mana. Increase the Shattered Rumbler AOE to 3 damage. Bump Rockbiter Weapon to 4 attack. Let's take cards that nobody puts in their deck and make them worthwhile.
The truth is all classes right now are severely imbalanced and downright broken. You guys are just focusing on Warlock as a control deck.
The whole damn game is a clusterf*ck.
This^
’Balance’ is sort of irrelevant in Hearthstone now as Blizzard no longer stick to any kind of solid rule across the board. Originally there were touchstone cards which you could use to assess balance, now if a card has some kind of deck building restriction then it’s power level is allowed to be as high as necessary for the archetype to be viable.
Hence Spell Mage is allowed to draw 2 cards for free, not because that interaction is in any way balanced, but because the design team wanted to push the archetype and giving it broken tools achieves that.
You can almost guarantee that Shadow Priest will be ‘broken’ by the end of the year.
I'm utterly at a loss at the complaints in this thread. As near as I can tell, the bulk of the complaining about warlock is that it is heavily favored against control (mainly priest, as it's other the most common control in the current meta). Seriously? That's the issue? Control priest is heavily favored against aggro decks (which are right now a sizable portion of the meta) and secret pally. There's one freaking deck you're almost certainly going to lose to: Tick Warlock (and to a lesser degree, non-Tick Control Warlock). What deck are you willing to be weak against? Seriously. If you're not willing to have some type of viable meta deck that your favorite deck is weak against, then you're not actually asking for a balanced or healthy meta: you're a shrill partisan for your favored class who wants to win without trying.
As has been pointed out, warlock is very weak against hunter: in the non-Tick Control Warlock deck I've been playing, hunter crushes me unless I get very lucky early on. That's fine: I understand I'm likely to lose those matches.
For all intents and purposes, in games against priest, Tick Warlock is essentially a 3 card combo deck. Corrupt with Jarax, burn 5 with Tick, burn 5 again with Y'shaarj. That combo doesn't end the game, but it does put priests under the gun to end the game quickly, something they can't do very easily (especially with 2 mana 6/6s running around). Control decks are always weak to combo. Why should you be any different?
According to VS, control warlock is a tier 3 deck. Yup, totally something to complain about.
’Balance’ is sort of irrelevant in Hearthstone now as Blizzard no longer stick to any kind of solid rule across the board. Originally there were touchstone cards which you could use to assess balance, now if a card has some kind of deck building restriction then it’s power level is allowed to be as high as necessary for the archetype to be viable.
Hence Spell Mage is allowed to draw 2 cards for free, not because that interaction is in any way balanced, but because the design team wanted to push the archetype and giving it broken tools achieves that.
You can almost guarantee that Shadow Priest will be ‘broken’ by the end of the year.
For some reason everyone is hung up on the fact that "No minion mage" can draw 2 cards for free, when Rogues and Warriors can do the same thing much easier and Demon Hunters can potentially draw three cards at a mana gain. You don't even know what balance means.
If everyone can do crazy plays but the winrate of several decks is close to 50%, then the game is balanced. It's more fun for most people, it might be unfun for you, but it is certainly not unbalanced.
’Balance’ is sort of irrelevant in Hearthstone now as Blizzard no longer stick to any kind of solid rule across the board. Originally there were touchstone cards which you could use to assess balance, now if a card has some kind of deck building restriction then it’s power level is allowed to be as high as necessary for the archetype to be viable.
Hence Spell Mage is allowed to draw 2 cards for free, not because that interaction is in any way balanced, but because the design team wanted to push the archetype and giving it broken tools achieves that.
You can almost guarantee that Shadow Priest will be ‘broken’ by the end of the year.
For some reason everyone is hung up on the fact that "No minion mage" can draw 2 cards for free, when Rogues and Warriors can do the same thing much easier and Demon Hunters can potentially draw three cards at a mana gain. You don't even know what balance means.
If everyone can do crazy plays but the winrate of several decks is close to 50%, then the game is balanced. It's more fun for most people, it might be unfun for you, but it is certainly not unbalanced.
What are you on about?
You’re agreeing with me and arguing against it at the same time, it’s weird.
The reason there are decks near 50% is because, like I said, Blizzard choose which archetypes they wish to ‘break’. You mention Rogue as if I would defend their card draw? I wouldn’t because they are broken too. That’s the point. Every viable deck is only viable because Blizzard have given them absurdly broken tools (such as Rogue’s card draw, or Demon Hunter’s).
Blizzard have already mentioned Shadow Priest this year, so it is very likely they will print a couple of obscenely powerful Shadow Priest synergistic cards soon.
In classic Hearthstone the cards were balanced against a fairly strict system.
My point is that every class has some absurd conditional cards. For some classes the shell to shine doesn't exist yet, but every class can do amazing plays. The game has evolved from the time when 4drops were comperable to Yeti and that's good. If we had 10 years of classic Hearthstone it would be a stale, boring game with a handful of players.
It's better if everyone has fireworks, as long as no one deck is keeping the rest from doing their thing.
My point is that every class has some absurd conditional cards. For some classes the shell to shine doesn't exist yet, but every class can do amazing plays. The game has evolved from the time when 4drops were comperable to Yeti and that's good. If we had 10 years of classic Hearthstone it would be a stale, boring game with a handful of players.
It's better if everyone has fireworks, as long as no one deck is keeping the rest from doing their thing.
That's why we should call for more buffs than nerfs. Admittedly, buffs are easier to miss because you still don't know the full potential of a card as opposed to nerfs, but that's something that you just get better by doing it. The team needs to start printing more fair and mundane cards by the next rotation, so they'll have the whole year to adjust the cards onto a HIGHER power level rather than dragging them down.
Tickatus is a bad card in itself and stats show it but it has a profound effect on the meta, indisputably I think, as it is overplayed. It pushes everything down, even mid-range decks can barely get away with it but everything else can deal with it easily. And so that is all we have atm. These decks are squeezed by ultra aggro from one side and Warlock on the other. I checked the stats just now, aggro decks have a 70% win rate, which I think is insane so more balancing is needed. Just played a game (Secret Pala) and had plenty of options to finish my opponent, just pick and choose; that should not have been the case and it makes the game boring af, hate playing that kind of brainless aggro. Blizz need to seriously rethink their approach to balancing this game, unless somehow this kind of 'balance' brings them more money (which is likely, tbh).
I am going back to just doing the weeklies and dailies until something changes...
My point is that every class has some absurd conditional cards. For some classes the shell to shine doesn't exist yet, but every class can do amazing plays. The game has evolved from the time when 4drops were comperable to Yeti and that's good. If we had 10 years of classic Hearthstone it would be a stale, boring game with a handful of players.
It's better if everyone has fireworks, as long as no one deck is keeping the rest from doing their thing.
But the more specific archetypes are broken the less viable everything else is. It’s forced and uninteresting to me. It makes theorycrafting a bit of a chore.
I’m not saying power cannot increase or that the game should not have evolved from coin>innervate>yeti.
As someone who only achieved legend on both ladders with Tickatus I can confess its very stupid design, the problem is that its corrupt and a demon, meaning 2-3 copies are possible.
Nerf suggestions include, making it not a demon (wont happen), making it a higher cost and already with corrupted effect built in (8 mana destroy cards, this way Ysharj wont bring it back, also wont happen), or just nerf the cards destroyed from 5 to 3.
I've always been in favor of bringing decks UP to a power level to match the best deck in the game, rather than calling to bring the best deck in the game DOWN. Better for everybody to have fun playing what they want to than to punish people because they happen to be playing what's good. If anything "needs" to be nerfed, by sheer numbers it'd probably be Paladin. Hunter's only doing as well as it is because there isn't a powerful enough control deck that contests it.
And while I'm talking about Hunter, I may as well white-knight for a minute for ole Rexxar: if you can't even figure out what card you want nerfed for a class, don't list it as a class that needs to be nerfed? Hunter is probably fine at the moment, at least as fine as it'll ever be in its current design space. A deck being powerful and having a good winrate isn't a horrible, toxic thing. A deck being good doesn't automatically mean it needs to be brought to its knees as divine punishment for outdoing the decks you happen to enjoy playing. Hunter is one of the most fair classes in the game from a design/mechanics standpoint - at least in my opinion. Rexxar has had his time at the heavy end of the nerf hammer, maybe its time we just buff the weak and high-potential cards from other classes.
Rush Warrior performing so well kinda makes me sad because it's been my favorite deck to play this expansion and now I know it will get beaten into submission
So, I faced mainly 3 decks today: Spell mage, face hunter and control warlock, with an odd spell damage mage sneaking in there. I played rush warrior, and did very well vs all of them, losing to one warlock.
If a card should be nerfed, I think it is Crabrider, which I abused the heck out of. The rest of the warrior menagerie/frenzy/rush package seemed like very good design, so if that is the deck to beat, I think we should be happy!
I have found that this deck seems to be the absolute perfect counter to the current meta, and against Secret-based Paladin and every type of Warlock currently.
Hunter can be a bit of a race, but as long as you can keep the early board clear, they are usually pretty easy to beat as well.
Warlock: waaaay too much removal, waaay too much heal (more than priest), waaay too much value: Tickatus, Jarraxus, Y Sharij you name it.
I mean druid plays Y Sharij too but they struggle early game. For warlock it is just a breeze to clear the board times and again and get TONS of heal back.
Paladin: weapon nerf was ok but still TONE THOSE SECRET EFFECTS DOWN. Avenge should be les impactful, make it 2/2 instead of 3/2. Crossroad Gossiper is too busted, lower starting stats
Hunter: I can't pinpoint a specific card. Just less overall damage maybe?
Are you whining about Classic, Standard or Wild?
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
EU 11/2015+ , f2p 03/2021+: DK 63/ DH 205 /Dr 277 / Hu 733 / Ma 6666 / Pa 1072 / Pr 1165 / Ro 1791 / Sh 1303 / Wl 707 / Wr 664
Warlock: waaaay too much removal, waaay too much heal (more than priest), waaay too much value: Tickatus, Jarraxus, Y Sharij you name it.
I mean druid plays Y Sharij too but they struggle early game. For warlock it is just a breeze to clear the board times and again and get TONS of heal back.
Paladin: weapon nerf was ok but still TONE THOSE SECRET EFFECTS DOWN. Avenge should be les impactful, make it 2/2 instead of 3/2. Crossroad Gossiper is too busted, lower starting stats
Hunter: I can't pinpoint a specific card. Just less overall damage maybe?
Are you whining about Classic, Standard or Wild?
This thread is clearly about Standard
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
I don't even know what vicious syndicate is and don't really care to be honest, especially if they claim that something is utterly unplayable, they are not worthy of my curiosity. I'm sure they're right that warlock is bad in this meta, I wouldn't be the one who opposes data, I trust data.
I'm in diamond and it's playable just fine, I have good matchups against paladin, mage, warrior, priest, tempo rogue, mirror. Only hunter is really hard to beat (and weapon rogue but i never see it), but far from unbeatable. Hunter being the deck I see the most when I play control warlock, data will say that my deck is bad in this meta. Data will also say that my deck is good against most classes in the game.
Hopelly you got my point. You are right. And I am right. Control warlock sucks, but is also an extremely good deck. It's a matter of perception.
And good cards are good cards no matter what state of the meta, no matter what state of mind. You can't disagree that all the cards I listed above are top tier power level.
Considering everyone is asking for nerf for everything I would say it sounds balanced lol. People just love to cry.
LMAO imagine crying because Cascading Disaster, one of the most impractical Warlock removals ever printed, you only think it's busted because of Y'Shaarj, the Defiler. I'd love to read your comments during the time Defile was in Standard....
I love you Dreadsteed, I will never disenchant you!
How about buffs instead? Make Mana Tide Totem a 2-drop. Put Hex back to 3 mana. Increase the Shattered Rumbler AOE to 3 damage. Bump Rockbiter Weapon to 4 attack. Let's take cards that nobody puts in their deck and make them worthwhile.
This^
’Balance’ is sort of irrelevant in Hearthstone now as Blizzard no longer stick to any kind of solid rule across the board. Originally there were touchstone cards which you could use to assess balance, now if a card has some kind of deck building restriction then it’s power level is allowed to be as high as necessary for the archetype to be viable.
Hence Spell Mage is allowed to draw 2 cards for free, not because that interaction is in any way balanced, but because the design team wanted to push the archetype and giving it broken tools achieves that.
You can almost guarantee that Shadow Priest will be ‘broken’ by the end of the year.
I'm utterly at a loss at the complaints in this thread. As near as I can tell, the bulk of the complaining about warlock is that it is heavily favored against control (mainly priest, as it's other the most common control in the current meta). Seriously? That's the issue? Control priest is heavily favored against aggro decks (which are right now a sizable portion of the meta) and secret pally. There's one freaking deck you're almost certainly going to lose to: Tick Warlock (and to a lesser degree, non-Tick Control Warlock). What deck are you willing to be weak against? Seriously. If you're not willing to have some type of viable meta deck that your favorite deck is weak against, then you're not actually asking for a balanced or healthy meta: you're a shrill partisan for your favored class who wants to win without trying.
As has been pointed out, warlock is very weak against hunter: in the non-Tick Control Warlock deck I've been playing, hunter crushes me unless I get very lucky early on. That's fine: I understand I'm likely to lose those matches.
For all intents and purposes, in games against priest, Tick Warlock is essentially a 3 card combo deck. Corrupt with Jarax, burn 5 with Tick, burn 5 again with Y'shaarj. That combo doesn't end the game, but it does put priests under the gun to end the game quickly, something they can't do very easily (especially with 2 mana 6/6s running around). Control decks are always weak to combo. Why should you be any different?
According to VS, control warlock is a tier 3 deck. Yup, totally something to complain about.
For some reason everyone is hung up on the fact that "No minion mage" can draw 2 cards for free, when Rogues and Warriors can do the same thing much easier and Demon Hunters can potentially draw three cards at a mana gain. You don't even know what balance means.
If everyone can do crazy plays but the winrate of several decks is close to 50%, then the game is balanced. It's more fun for most people, it might be unfun for you, but it is certainly not unbalanced.
What are you on about?
You’re agreeing with me and arguing against it at the same time, it’s weird.
The reason there are decks near 50% is because, like I said, Blizzard choose which archetypes they wish to ‘break’. You mention Rogue as if I would defend their card draw? I wouldn’t because they are broken too. That’s the point. Every viable deck is only viable because Blizzard have given them absurdly broken tools (such as Rogue’s card draw, or Demon Hunter’s).
Blizzard have already mentioned Shadow Priest this year, so it is very likely they will print a couple of obscenely powerful Shadow Priest synergistic cards soon.
In classic Hearthstone the cards were balanced against a fairly strict system.
My point is that every class has some absurd conditional cards. For some classes the shell to shine doesn't exist yet, but every class can do amazing plays. The game has evolved from the time when 4drops were comperable to Yeti and that's good. If we had 10 years of classic Hearthstone it would be a stale, boring game with a handful of players.
It's better if everyone has fireworks, as long as no one deck is keeping the rest from doing their thing.
That's why we should call for more buffs than nerfs. Admittedly, buffs are easier to miss because you still don't know the full potential of a card as opposed to nerfs, but that's something that you just get better by doing it. The team needs to start printing more fair and mundane cards by the next rotation, so they'll have the whole year to adjust the cards onto a HIGHER power level rather than dragging them down.
I love you Dreadsteed, I will never disenchant you!
Tickatus is a bad card in itself and stats show it but it has a profound effect on the meta, indisputably I think, as it is overplayed. It pushes everything down, even mid-range decks can barely get away with it but everything else can deal with it easily. And so that is all we have atm. These decks are squeezed by ultra aggro from one side and Warlock on the other. I checked the stats just now, aggro decks have a 70% win rate, which I think is insane so more balancing is needed. Just played a game (Secret Pala) and had plenty of options to finish my opponent, just pick and choose; that should not have been the case and it makes the game boring af, hate playing that kind of brainless aggro. Blizz need to seriously rethink their approach to balancing this game, unless somehow this kind of 'balance' brings them more money (which is likely, tbh).
I am going back to just doing the weeklies and dailies until something changes...
People asking for balance in this ass game in 2021 is hilarious. Blizzard has you by the balls and you know it.
But the more specific archetypes are broken the less viable everything else is. It’s forced and uninteresting to me. It makes theorycrafting a bit of a chore.
I’m not saying power cannot increase or that the game should not have evolved from coin>innervate>yeti.
As someone who only achieved legend on both ladders with Tickatus I can confess its very stupid design, the problem is that its corrupt and a demon, meaning 2-3 copies are possible.
Nerf suggestions include, making it not a demon (wont happen), making it a higher cost and already with corrupted effect built in (8 mana destroy cards, this way Ysharj wont bring it back, also wont happen), or just nerf the cards destroyed from 5 to 3.
I've always been in favor of bringing decks UP to a power level to match the best deck in the game, rather than calling to bring the best deck in the game DOWN. Better for everybody to have fun playing what they want to than to punish people because they happen to be playing what's good. If anything "needs" to be nerfed, by sheer numbers it'd probably be Paladin. Hunter's only doing as well as it is because there isn't a powerful enough control deck that contests it.
And while I'm talking about Hunter, I may as well white-knight for a minute for ole Rexxar: if you can't even figure out what card you want nerfed for a class, don't list it as a class that needs to be nerfed? Hunter is probably fine at the moment, at least as fine as it'll ever be in its current design space. A deck being powerful and having a good winrate isn't a horrible, toxic thing. A deck being good doesn't automatically mean it needs to be brought to its knees as divine punishment for outdoing the decks you happen to enjoy playing. Hunter is one of the most fair classes in the game from a design/mechanics standpoint - at least in my opinion. Rexxar has had his time at the heavy end of the nerf hammer, maybe its time we just buff the weak and high-potential cards from other classes.
please don't bully my son
Rush Warrior performing so well kinda makes me sad because it's been my favorite deck to play this expansion and now I know it will get beaten into submission
So, I faced mainly 3 decks today: Spell mage, face hunter and control warlock, with an odd spell damage mage sneaking in there. I played rush warrior, and did very well vs all of them, losing to one warlock.
If a card should be nerfed, I think it is Crabrider, which I abused the heck out of. The rest of the warrior menagerie/frenzy/rush package seemed like very good design, so if that is the deck to beat, I think we should be happy!
Editor of the Heartpwn Legendary Crafting Guide:
https://www.hearthpwn.com/forums/hearthstone-general/card-discussion/205920-legendary-tier-list-crafting-guide
I have found that this deck seems to be the absolute perfect counter to the current meta, and against Secret-based Paladin and every type of Warlock currently.
Hunter can be a bit of a race, but as long as you can keep the early board clear, they are usually pretty easy to beat as well.
Are you whining about Classic, Standard or Wild?
EU 11/2015+ , f2p 03/2021+: DK 63 / DH 205 /Dr 277 / Hu 733 / Ma 6666 / Pa 1072 / Pr 1165 / Ro 1791 / Sh 1303 / Wl 707 / Wr 664
This thread is clearly about Standard