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Sounds like you yearn for the "good ol' days" of HS.
How much have you played of Classic mode?
I think certain classes have too much draw, and it's far too general as far as draw goes.
Like Mage and Rogue in particular just have insane amounts of draw. And it's extremely efficient. Warlock does too, but pays a cost for it, mostly. Demon Hunter I don't think should have any draw except Skull of Gul'dan.
Lol, did you ever get that bit of internet psychology wrong!
The reason Miracle Rogue was significant in the so-called Good ol' days meta was because it was the only deck out there (with the arguable exception of Freeze Mage, but that was dull for other reasons) that wasn't a straight tempo v tempo race. Quite a few matchups were decided conclusively in the first 1-2 turns because there was no way to recover a disadvantageous trade in those opening turns.
In any case, no, I do not long for those days. In fact I constantly argue against nerfs on the theory that every time a different way of playing the game gets snuffed out, we bring the meta back towards tempo v tempo aggro decks, and frankly, that rule has proven itself true more times than I can count.
All of that nonwithstanding, it was interesting to see what an investment was needed in order to set up such a draw engine in the old days.
Helpful Clarification on Forbidden Topics for Hearthstone Forums:
Enjoying Americans winning in the Olympics is forbidden because it is political. A 14 plus page discussion of state-sponsored lawsuits against a multi-national corporation based on harassment, discrimination, and wrongful death allegations is apparently not political enough to raise an issue.
The real problem is that class identity is very poorly implemented in Hearthstone. Most clases having access to almost everything (including insane card draw) one way or another is beyond ridiculous. I seriously can't understand why Team 5 decided not to pay enough attention to such important thing... Laziness is probably the answer! :(
I would love to see a card like black vise from MTG that punishes large hand sizes.
That would be cool.
I believe the only card in Hearthstone that has direct sinergy with your opponent's hand size is Clockwork Giant, which is very lame to be honest.
Well, mindrender is one of them. It is nice to swap with someone with a big hand, so you have a bigger variety of options. Plus, if opponent is mage, most cards are discounted and you can throw cheap fireballs in their face.
Cards like mukka which flood their hand with bananas or draw cards for opponents like the new Southsea Scoundred can also make them mill cards when timed well. I used Zephyr before to get Mukka sometimes.
Mindrender cost literally too much to actually punish hyper hands. You want to take key cards, disrupt your oponent strategy but work with only 7 mana most of the times (And your oponent with 10) is pretty...inefficientt. It works and is great against some combos but in general is too fair.
The charge treatment is to get rid of it alltogether. That's a big no for card draw obviously.
The real problem is that for a varied meta, efficient card draw should not be available to aggro decks or burn decks. And yes I do consider spell mage to be a burn deck. Think about this: In most TGC's the counter to aggro is control. You run them out of gas and you win.
Since aggro does NOT run out of gas in hearthstone, aggro IS A COUNTER TO CONTROL.
As is midrange.
As is combo.
Hearthstone is missing a very important archetype in keeping balance in check right now. And yes, it is mainly because of draw.
The lack of interaction on an opponent's turn already gives aggro such a big advantage. Don't make it worse by giving them card draw. Instead give it to control where it belongs.
Something like:
You know, like Divine Favor? wasn't that a fun card. I think you shouldn't punish players for doing what is harder to do like having a big hand, or a big minion. The better solution is to nerf the op card draw cards
As much as I'm not 3nnui's biggest fan, not sure why the Black Vise suggestion is resulting in so much vitriol.
Anything that increases the complexity of play is good in my book. Having to manage the number of cards in hand is an interesting anti-control and sometimes anti-combo measure.
Personally, I like something related to discarding. Something like "Opponent discards one card at random. If opponent's hand contains more than six cards, he discards 3 cards instead". Might be too powerful in that iteration, but something like that.
Helpful Clarification on Forbidden Topics for Hearthstone Forums:
Enjoying Americans winning in the Olympics is forbidden because it is political. A 14 plus page discussion of state-sponsored lawsuits against a multi-national corporation based on harassment, discrimination, and wrongful death allegations is apparently not political enough to raise an issue.
Having a big hand is usually not a hard thing nowadays, hence this thread. Also, for some reason, I forgot about Divine Favor. It's very funny, but this paladin card punishes big hands by usually drawing a lot, which is exactly what we are discussing here and shouldn't happen in the game. Using Divine Favor as a counter-argument feels a bit weird, don't you think so? :P
Exactly. Divine Favor punishes managing your resources well, not drawing. Hand size is not the issue. If you want to punish drawing, punish drawing itself. Shenanigans would be a good examples if it transformed ALL extra cards because of a played card of just the second one.
I can't believe people are actually implying that Quick Shot is problematic in any way. A card that is a cantrip at best and only when their hand is literally empty. I'm on the side of "give everybody lots of card draw" - because card draw is an important mechanic of any card game and everybody should have access to it. And I don't wanna hear any "whatabouts", card games are games where you play cards, and you need cards in hand to play.
Now I'd like to see every class have card draw in its own unique way, which is tricky conceptually but not impossible.
I think it's interesting that everybody's perspective on Divine Favor is that it punishes the player with the big hand. The way I see it, it doesn't "punish" anybody, it rewards and incentivizes its player to dump their own hand, it really doesn't matter how huge the opponent's hand is at that stage. Divine Favor from 0 cards in hand to 4 is still incredible. 2 being the bare minimum of good for the cost.
I guess that's just a perspective thing.
please don't bully my son
the only drawcard that is a problem objectively is Refreshing Spring Water because of the deck built around it makes it free/+mana depending on how many Incanter's Flow has been cast
It definitely punishes you for being careful with your resources. The counterplay is to literally play as many cards as possible each turn without rhyme or reason. It doesn't incentivize the opponent to dump their hand (as the opponent doesn't get any positive effect for dumping their hand), it punishes the opponent for not dumping their hand
I can respect that you see it that way - but it feels like you're only looking at this from the perspective of the control/combo player vs the aggressive Paladin. I'll try and explain where I'm coming from better.
If you're in a position where you're able to play conservatively with the cards in your hand, and your opponent is casting Divine Favor and drawing between 4 - 6 cards, you started in an advantaged situation. Because you're playing conservatively, you must have some board wipe in hand that can deal with not just what they currently have, but what they could potentially have. They're on the back foot because they're low on resources, but they level that with Divine Favor.
You haven't lost any advantage, and Divine Favor doesn't make a direct impact on your board or hand, anything like that happening requires more mana invested in the Paladin's turn using the resources they've gained. If they invest more mana into developing their board with the cards they just drew, you were already prepared for that happening because you've got that big meaty hand, right? Unless you're specifically a Druid, that seems like you're in about the same position as you were in before. And even though your opponent has more cards than before, you're still the one holding the answers to their aggression, that's what control is about.
In the Paladin's position, they see that they're up against somebody determined to keep cards in hand and not use a lot of their resources. They've got Divine Favor and a hand of cards that are all proactive - that's the point of their deck, developing threats on board to kill your opponent. Divine Favor frees them to play more aggressively with the resources they have because the punish of a board wipe is less, well, punishing. Now it would still be silly to hand dump > Favor > hand dump pt. 2, but they're still more free to play proactively, incentivized to do so because they have a possible +6 in hand.
The control player isn't punished because they're not in a strictly worse position on board, they're the ones with the answers (hypothetically speaking), and the aggro Paladin player isn't disincentivized from playing into removal because they have a way to recover from that loss, motivating them to play towards their own game plan.
I guess tldr; I don't see Divine Favor as a punish because nothing is really happening to you when it gets played against you. An aggressive deck spending 50% (give or take) of their mana to draw cards when they were in a disadvantaged state (implied to be disadvantaged because the control player was able to keep cards in hand in the first place) doesn't really threaten you in the short term any more than what they already had going on. Unless they drop a Hand of A'dal or Blessing of Kings onto their Crabrider - that'd be pretty scary.
please don't bully my son
Really? Combo is a problem for you? Combo will be double teamed by Tickatus and aggro for as long as Tickatus is a thing in Standard (and Wild). I do not see the game falling under combo domination at all.
*Shaman main cries in the corner*
Not really / IDGAF
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