It certainly would be nice of Blizzard to offer dust refunds for Kargal, but looking at dust refunds historically, this has never happened before, so they probably won't. And logically speaking, it shouldn't happen.
The safest thing would have been not to craft any cards so early into the expansion, and this is well known by most people. F2Players should be even more wary of this. And again, not knowing this is not an excuse.
That's my stance on the matter. You are free to disagree with it.
I'm very surprised they actually did it tbh. Not sure how I feel about it either, on one hand its good for the people who crafted him to get their dust back (personally I think you were crazy for crafting him in the first place) but on the other hand it seem like blizzard are going out of their way a lot more to appease fans of the game, which I think is a bad thing.
Deck of lunacy deck still work I went like 5-0 with it. I mean 3 mana is kinda like if u do not get open hand or get off mulligan. Still works still won me games .
All I can say is: congratulations. Community did it once again. You pushed the border of eligible dust refunds where I was certain Blizzard would offer no space. For Blizzard's sake, I hope they realise what kind of precedent they created with this, but I'm happy for everyone who crafted Kargal and now can get his or her dust back.
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Proud Dad of 2, Husband & Competitive Gamer Overwatch 2, Hearthstone, Heroes & Starcraft II Flexible Support, Control Main & Protoss Expert
All I can say is: congratulations. Community did it once again. You pushed the border of eligible dust refunds where I was certain Blizzard would offer no space. For Blizzard's sake, I hope they realise what kind of precedent they created with this, but I'm happy for everyone who crafted Kargal and now can get his or her dust back.
Exactly! Blizzard really have opened themselves up to the hordes of whiners who are now going to be drawing up petitions left, right and centre - not to improve the game but to suit their own agendas.
Very strange move from blizzard - I expected them to stand firm with this! Lets hope it isn't a sign of things to come.
All I can say is: congratulations. Community did it once again. You pushed the border of eligible dust refunds where I was certain Blizzard would offer no space. For Blizzard's sake, I hope they realise what kind of precedent they created with this, but I'm happy for everyone who crafted Kargal and now can get his or her dust back.
Exactly! Blizzard really have opened themselves up to the hordes of whiners who are now going to be drawing up petitions left, right and centre - not to improve the game but to suit their own agendas.
Very strange move from blizzard - I expected them to stand firm with this! Lets hope it isn't a sign of things to come.
Why? This makes a lot of sense. Too many times they have killed decks with a bunch of legendaries by nerfing a common. This time, the synergies were so obvious, I don't think there would be another option.
All I can say is: congratulations. Community did it once again. You pushed the border of eligible dust refunds where I was certain Blizzard would offer no space. For Blizzard's sake, I hope they realise what kind of precedent they created with this, but I'm happy for everyone who crafted Kargal and now can get his or her dust back.
Exactly! Blizzard really have opened themselves up to the hordes of whiners who are now going to be drawing up petitions left, right and centre - not to improve the game but to suit their own agendas.
Very strange move from blizzard - I expected them to stand firm with this! Lets hope it isn't a sign of things to come.
Why? This makes a lot of sense. Too many times they have killed decks with a bunch of legendaries by nerfing a common. This time, the synergies were so obvious, I don't think there would be another option.
Titanium, I am not against this change in policy, at all. Sorry if you misunderstood my point. It's a classy move, especially aimed at those who struggle for dust. Unofficial guidelines tell people to not craft until 2 weeks after a big rotation, but again, it's unofficial. It's a show of goodwill.
I mentioned earlier in this thread that there were clear rules about dust refunds, and Blizzard has actively chosen to stretch those rules, apart from how inherently connected you think certain cards are to a nerf. But as SlydE rightfully pointed out, there have been numerous instances where the same case could be made. Hall of Faming Baku a year early meant Jan'alai was suddenly hot garbage; what will they do with those changes now?
Again, I'm all for community being able to make an impact here, but Blizzard did create a precedent here.
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Proud Dad of 2, Husband & Competitive Gamer Overwatch 2, Hearthstone, Heroes & Starcraft II Flexible Support, Control Main & Protoss Expert
All I can say is: congratulations. Community did it once again. You pushed the border of eligible dust refunds where I was certain Blizzard would offer no space. For Blizzard's sake, I hope they realise what kind of precedent they created with this, but I'm happy for everyone who crafted Kargal and now can get his or her dust back.
Exactly! Blizzard really have opened themselves up to the hordes of whiners who are now going to be drawing up petitions left, right and centre - not to improve the game but to suit their own agendas.
Very strange move from blizzard - I expected them to stand firm with this! Lets hope it isn't a sign of things to come.
Why? This makes a lot of sense. Too many times they have killed decks with a bunch of legendaries by nerfing a common. This time, the synergies were so obvious, I don't think there would be another option.
Titanium, I am not against this change in policy, at all. Sorry if you misunderstood my point. It's a classy move, especially aimed at those who struggle for dust. Unofficial guidelines tell people to not craft until 2 weeks after a big rotation, but again, it's unofficial. It's a show of goodwill.
I mentioned earlier in this thread that there were clear rules about dust refunds, and Blizzard has actively chosen to stretch those rules, apart from how inherently connected you think certain cards are to a nerf. But as SlydE rightfully pointed out, there have been numerous instances where the same case could be made. Hall of Faming Baku a year early meant Jan'alai was suddenly hot garbage; what will they do with those changes now?
Again, I'm all for community being able to make an impact here, but Blizzard did create a precedent here.
I get what you're saying and I'm not saying people getting dust refunds isn't a good thing - it is. However and like you've stated yourself, this has never been their policy in the past and it feels like less of a gesture of good will and more like an impulsive decision to appease the people who are complaining. And as you've also said, this sets the precedent from here on out, whenever a card is nerfed people are gonna be complaining that they want dust refunds for all other cards that are now no longer playable.
How long is it before they nerf a legendary and make an entire deck unplayable and everyone is gonna want crazy dust refunds? Its gonna happen sooner or later.
How long before they start folding and nerfing cards just because people don't like playing against them (not because its OP)?
This doesn't just set the precedent that dust refund should cover all impacted cards not the specific card that was nerfed. Its sets the precedent that whenever the community wants something they are gonna get it if they make enough noise. Not saying it hasn't happened before but its getting more and more common.
I just don't want to see this game entirely dictated by the community because when blizzard start folding on every little issue people have - we're heading into territory of fan service and that's when the game dies.
HS/Blizz started pandering to the lowest common denominator at least 6 expansions ago when they turned most games into clown fiestas of bright colours and jingly noises to appease people who still enjoy watching Sesame Street. This decision is just a step further down that path.
HS/Blizz started pandering to the lowest common denominator at least 6 expansions ago when they turned most games into clown fiestas of bright colours and jingly noises to appease people who still enjoy watching Sesame Street. This decision is just a step further down that path.
It's amusing seeing people so caught up on arguing over the internet that they would rather see giant corporations burn their customers than admit they were on the wrong side of the fence.
No I'd rather just see a competitive game with consistency from the developers rather than them cowing to a vocal minority in the community as that is a dangerous path to go down.
I find it fascinating how many people assume that Blizzard's decision to offer a dust refund in this case is "caving to complainers."
Without knowing their internal review process, it's impossible to determine that that was the case. All we know is that complaining existed, and that at a later date, a dust refund was offered. These things may have a causal relationship, but they are not guaranteed to have a causal relationship. To assume otherwise is a fallacy: "post hoc, ergo propter hoc."
It's more likely that they had an internal discussion going about whether or not to offer a refund in this case, and the final decision got amended after the cutoff date for the patch notes/announcement. "Small indie company" jokes aside, there's still a process that patch notes and announcements have to follow, and it takes time to draft, edit and approve the text of those.
I'm not surprised that this refund is being offered. Kargal is explicitly built to rely upon the Watch Posts in a way that the other previous examples in this thread do not. I see Jan'alai being brought up a bunch as a casualty of Baku's early rotation. But that's collateral damage; it makes no sense to refund Jan'alai when Baku gets changed. The more accurate comparison would be if Spirit of the Dragonhawk got changed, Jan'alai might need to be examined for a refund. But even then, Jan'alai doesn't depend completely upon the Spirit -- it's obviously a related card, and it's clearly intended to function alongside the Spirit, but you can still get to 8 HP damage in a game (thereby activating Jan'alai) even without the Spirit. It just takes longer. Kargal, on the other hand, fundamentally cannot pay off unless you have Watch Posts in your deck, and that means that if Watch Posts change, Kargal changes.
I, for one, think the nerfs to the Posts are a good balance change, and I wouldn't craft OR dust Kargal based on these changes. But other folks might feel differently, and I think it's commendable that they be able to re-evaluate this dependent legendary based on several components of his narrow build-up package changing.
Unlike some others, I don't think this sets a very broad precedent. It shows that in the limited cases where there's an in-expansion payoff-card tied explicitly to and dependent upon a suite of cards in that same expansion, there's a potential for synergistic refunds. That's it. It has no bearing on the Leper Gnome/Mekgineer Thermaplugg situation of yore, nor the Baku/Jan'alai situation (especially since they were from very different sets, and even though Jan'alai was obviously designed within the context of Baku's existence, it still had several other viable support cards beyond just Baku).
In other words, there's a big difference between "Hey, these cards go well together" and "This card literally does not function without these other cards." Kargal is the latter.
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Maybe I need to say this in another way:
It certainly would be nice of Blizzard to offer dust refunds for Kargal, but looking at dust refunds historically, this has never happened before, so they probably won't. And logically speaking, it shouldn't happen.
The safest thing would have been not to craft any cards so early into the expansion, and this is well known by most people. F2Players should be even more wary of this. And again, not knowing this is not an excuse.
That's my stance on the matter. You are free to disagree with it.
We DID IT! https://mobile.twitter.com/PlayHearthstone/status/1382129355086729216
This thread aged well.
I'm very surprised they actually did it tbh. Not sure how I feel about it either, on one hand its good for the people who crafted him to get their dust back (personally I think you were crazy for crafting him in the first place) but on the other hand it seem like blizzard are going out of their way a lot more to appease fans of the game, which I think is a bad thing.
Deck of lunacy deck still work I went like 5-0 with it. I mean 3 mana is kinda like if u do not get open hand or get off mulligan. Still works still won me games .
All I can say is: congratulations. Community did it once again. You pushed the border of eligible dust refunds where I was certain Blizzard would offer no space. For Blizzard's sake, I hope they realise what kind of precedent they created with this, but I'm happy for everyone who crafted Kargal and now can get his or her dust back.
Proud Dad of 2, Husband & Competitive Gamer
Overwatch 2, Hearthstone, Heroes & Starcraft II
Flexible Support, Control Main & Protoss Expert
Check out my latest Theorycrafts for March of the Lich King!
Big Vanndar Shaman | No Minion Relic Demon Hunter | Undead Deathrattle Rogue
I keep reading that watch posts are uplayable.. wtf dudes.. they would be op even as 1/1s (exagerating , but still)
Exactly! Blizzard really have opened themselves up to the hordes of whiners who are now going to be drawing up petitions left, right and centre - not to improve the game but to suit their own agendas.
Very strange move from blizzard - I expected them to stand firm with this! Lets hope it isn't a sign of things to come.
Why? This makes a lot of sense. Too many times they have killed decks with a bunch of legendaries by nerfing a common. This time, the synergies were so obvious, I don't think there would be another option.
Editor of the Heartpwn Legendary Crafting Guide:
https://www.hearthpwn.com/forums/hearthstone-general/card-discussion/205920-legendary-tier-list-crafting-guide
Titanium, I am not against this change in policy, at all. Sorry if you misunderstood my point. It's a classy move, especially aimed at those who struggle for dust. Unofficial guidelines tell people to not craft until 2 weeks after a big rotation, but again, it's unofficial. It's a show of goodwill.
I mentioned earlier in this thread that there were clear rules about dust refunds, and Blizzard has actively chosen to stretch those rules, apart from how inherently connected you think certain cards are to a nerf. But as SlydE rightfully pointed out, there have been numerous instances where the same case could be made. Hall of Faming Baku a year early meant Jan'alai was suddenly hot garbage; what will they do with those changes now?
Again, I'm all for community being able to make an impact here, but Blizzard did create a precedent here.
Proud Dad of 2, Husband & Competitive Gamer
Overwatch 2, Hearthstone, Heroes & Starcraft II
Flexible Support, Control Main & Protoss Expert
Check out my latest Theorycrafts for March of the Lich King!
Big Vanndar Shaman | No Minion Relic Demon Hunter | Undead Deathrattle Rogue
I get what you're saying and I'm not saying people getting dust refunds isn't a good thing - it is. However and like you've stated yourself, this has never been their policy in the past and it feels like less of a gesture of good will and more like an impulsive decision to appease the people who are complaining. And as you've also said, this sets the precedent from here on out, whenever a card is nerfed people are gonna be complaining that they want dust refunds for all other cards that are now no longer playable.
How long is it before they nerf a legendary and make an entire deck unplayable and everyone is gonna want crazy dust refunds? Its gonna happen sooner or later.
How long before they start folding and nerfing cards just because people don't like playing against them (not because its OP)?
This doesn't just set the precedent that dust refund should cover all impacted cards not the specific card that was nerfed. Its sets the precedent that whenever the community wants something they are gonna get it if they make enough noise. Not saying it hasn't happened before but its getting more and more common.
I just don't want to see this game entirely dictated by the community because when blizzard start folding on every little issue people have - we're heading into territory of fan service and that's when the game dies.
HS/Blizz started pandering to the lowest common denominator at least 6 expansions ago when they turned most games into clown fiestas of bright colours and jingly noises to appease people who still enjoy watching Sesame Street. This decision is just a step further down that path.
CHEERS TO EVERYONE
wow. Im really surprised. GJ
It's amusing seeing people so caught up on arguing over the internet that they would rather see giant corporations burn their customers than admit they were on the wrong side of the fence.
No I'd rather just see a competitive game with consistency from the developers rather than them cowing to a vocal minority in the community as that is a dangerous path to go down.
Customers being fairly compensated for mistakes made by the developers is not a dangerous path to go down.
Well, colour me surprised. That news came fast. I guess I was wrong about them.
I'm happy for all the people that wanted this.
The squeaky wheel gets the grease, as they say.
Wow, people hating on Blizzard cause they decide to do the logically right thing and offer a refund for Kargal ...
Well, to everyone else who is glad to hear this news, cheers, we did it! :)
I find it fascinating how many people assume that Blizzard's decision to offer a dust refund in this case is "caving to complainers."
Without knowing their internal review process, it's impossible to determine that that was the case. All we know is that complaining existed, and that at a later date, a dust refund was offered. These things may have a causal relationship, but they are not guaranteed to have a causal relationship. To assume otherwise is a fallacy: "post hoc, ergo propter hoc."
It's more likely that they had an internal discussion going about whether or not to offer a refund in this case, and the final decision got amended after the cutoff date for the patch notes/announcement. "Small indie company" jokes aside, there's still a process that patch notes and announcements have to follow, and it takes time to draft, edit and approve the text of those.
I'm not surprised that this refund is being offered. Kargal is explicitly built to rely upon the Watch Posts in a way that the other previous examples in this thread do not. I see Jan'alai being brought up a bunch as a casualty of Baku's early rotation. But that's collateral damage; it makes no sense to refund Jan'alai when Baku gets changed. The more accurate comparison would be if Spirit of the Dragonhawk got changed, Jan'alai might need to be examined for a refund. But even then, Jan'alai doesn't depend completely upon the Spirit -- it's obviously a related card, and it's clearly intended to function alongside the Spirit, but you can still get to 8 HP damage in a game (thereby activating Jan'alai) even without the Spirit. It just takes longer. Kargal, on the other hand, fundamentally cannot pay off unless you have Watch Posts in your deck, and that means that if Watch Posts change, Kargal changes.
I, for one, think the nerfs to the Posts are a good balance change, and I wouldn't craft OR dust Kargal based on these changes. But other folks might feel differently, and I think it's commendable that they be able to re-evaluate this dependent legendary based on several components of his narrow build-up package changing.
Unlike some others, I don't think this sets a very broad precedent. It shows that in the limited cases where there's an in-expansion payoff-card tied explicitly to and dependent upon a suite of cards in that same expansion, there's a potential for synergistic refunds. That's it. It has no bearing on the Leper Gnome/Mekgineer Thermaplugg situation of yore, nor the Baku/Jan'alai situation (especially since they were from very different sets, and even though Jan'alai was obviously designed within the context of Baku's existence, it still had several other viable support cards beyond just Baku).
In other words, there's a big difference between "Hey, these cards go well together" and "This card literally does not function without these other cards." Kargal is the latter.