I think Bliz really should refund this card because 2/3 of the cards that play off him got nerfed and unlike other synergies this is a very direct, forced and narrow synergy.
I also think not giving a refund sends a bad message to new players who are not aware of how risky it is to craft cards early in an expansion. Beyond catching new players offguard such practice discourages players of all kinds from experimenting with cards early in expansions when things are meant to be most exciting
Imagine being against this and siding with multimillion company's monetization strategy lol.
While I’m not a fan of some of the tones of the people here, use of common sense and logic =/= “siding with multimillion company”. Don’t paint others as shills when the cause of the problem is misplaced entitlement. It has been repeated time and time again to NOT craft anything during the first two weeks of an expansion. If you decide to do so anyway, it’s your own risk.
And do Blizzard tell us this? I cannot remember receiving a popup in game when the expansion released?
Or are we expecting the millions of HS players to receive their information from the HearthPwn forums?
If a brand new player that just started HS and didn't know about this prior to this expansion, decided they would use all of their dust (without consulting a website for feedback) to craft a card that got "indirectly" nerfed and is sad about it... they have now learned a valuable lesson. Also, if they just started, they probably aren't too invested in the game yet and it's not a huge deal, either.
Anyone who has played this game for more than one expansion should know this is something that happens. Even if they never visited a forum once, card nerfs get announced when you log in. You could make the connection.
But really, ignorance isn't a good defense here. In this modern age, everyone has access to internet (how else are you even playing the game?), everyone can learn about all this stuff of their own free will. If people are choosing to make uninformed decisions, that's on them.
Kargal is much worse than malicia and even she didn't included in many soul dh lists, wonder why people crafted him. Tokens should have rush at least. Maybe he will be supported with mini expansion posts but i doubt as wailing caverns have nothing to do with posts.
I think this is a great suggestion. Give the 2/2 tokens that can only be summoned on your opponents turn rush. That’ll fix the card...
Imagine being against this and siding with multimillion company's monetization strategy lol.
While I’m not a fan of some of the tones of the people here, use of common sense and logic =/= “siding with multimillion company”. Don’t paint others as shills when the cause of the problem is misplaced entitlement. It has been repeated time and time again to NOT craft anything during the first two weeks of an expansion. If you decide to do so anyway, it’s your own risk.
And do Blizzard tell us this? I cannot remember receiving a popup in game when the expansion released?
Or are we expecting the millions of HS players to receive their information from the HearthPwn forums?
If a brand new player that just started HS and didn't know about this prior to this expansion, decided they would use all of their dust (without consulting a website for feedback) to craft a card that got "indirectly" nerfed and is sad about it... they have now learned a valuable lesson. Also, if they just started, they probably aren't too invested in the game yet and it's not a huge deal, either.
Anyone who has played this game for more than one expansion should know this is something that happens. Even if they never visited a forum once, card nerfs get announced when you log in. You could make the connection.
But really, ignorance isn't a good defense here. In this modern age, everyone has access to internet (how else are you even playing the game?), everyone can learn about all this stuff of their own free will. If people are choosing to make uninformed decisions, that's on them.
Why would Blizzard want to be teaching new players "a valuable lesson" not to craft cards?
People love the whole "you only get burned once" and "you live and learn" arguments when it doesn't effect them, I suppose it makes them feel logical or something. Whatever.
From a corporations perspective though teaching your customers life lessons through their wallets seems counter productive.
if the watchpost are weaker or not, Kargal still give you the same amount of dudes on his battlecry. The rest depends on your deck. If the card dont have a good deck it will be bad with the actual post or with the nerfed post. Its a 7 mana summon a bunch of 5/5 which is game winning sometimes but most of the times just well...nope because other reasons not because of the watch post survavility. If the card is cut from decks is not even because of this nerf but because people want to tuned their decks to be better and that means use the best finishers. Kargal its maybe a bad finisher and people is just testing it for fun, maybe is better that we know and a later build proves us wrong.
Regardless of the outcome: the nerf of the Watch post dont affect him in any case. It affects the decks, not the card performance, yeah both are kind of linked but you cant refund ONE card that was not nerfed because the deck becomes worse. If that was the case just let me refund all my priest cards because with galakrond rotation all my priest decks become worse...
Imagine being against this and siding with multimillion company's monetization strategy lol.
While I’m not a fan of some of the tones of the people here, use of common sense and logic =/= “siding with multimillion company”. Don’t paint others as shills when the cause of the problem is misplaced entitlement. It has been repeated time and time again to NOT craft anything during the first two weeks of an expansion. If you decide to do so anyway, it’s your own risk.
And do Blizzard tell us this? I cannot remember receiving a popup in game when the expansion released?
Or are we expecting the millions of HS players to receive their information from the HearthPwn forums?
If a brand new player that just started HS and didn't know about this prior to this expansion, decided they would use all of their dust (without consulting a website for feedback) to craft a card that got "indirectly" nerfed and is sad about it... they have now learned a valuable lesson. Also, if they just started, they probably aren't too invested in the game yet and it's not a huge deal, either.
Anyone who has played this game for more than one expansion should know this is something that happens. Even if they never visited a forum once, card nerfs get announced when you log in. You could make the connection.
But really, ignorance isn't a good defense here. In this modern age, everyone has access to internet (how else are you even playing the game?), everyone can learn about all this stuff of their own free will. If people are choosing to make uninformed decisions, that's on them.
Why would Blizzard want to be teaching new players "a valuable lesson" not to craft cards?
Blizzard is not teaching them a lesson. But they will learn anyway.
Did you just wake up one day and completely understand resource management in games? Have you never made a bad decision in your life? Have you ever started a game and already knew everything there is to know about the in-game economy and flow of changes?
If so, you might be a genius, congratulations. Not everyone is as lucky as you, and needs to learn it somehow.
So you go to websites and find information before you do stuff, or you make a mistake and learn from it.
Imagine being against this and siding with multimillion company's monetization strategy lol.
While I’m not a fan of some of the tones of the people here, use of common sense and logic =/= “siding with multimillion company”. Don’t paint others as shills when the cause of the problem is misplaced entitlement. It has been repeated time and time again to NOT craft anything during the first two weeks of an expansion. If you decide to do so anyway, it’s your own risk.
And do Blizzard tell us this? I cannot remember receiving a popup in game when the expansion released?
Or are we expecting the millions of HS players to receive their information from the HearthPwn forums?
If a brand new player that just started HS and didn't know about this prior to this expansion, decided they would use all of their dust (without consulting a website for feedback) to craft a card that got "indirectly" nerfed and is sad about it... they have now learned a valuable lesson. Also, if they just started, they probably aren't too invested in the game yet and it's not a huge deal, either.
Anyone who has played this game for more than one expansion should know this is something that happens. Even if they never visited a forum once, card nerfs get announced when you log in. You could make the connection.
But really, ignorance isn't a good defense here. In this modern age, everyone has access to internet (how else are you even playing the game?), everyone can learn about all this stuff of their own free will. If people are choosing to make uninformed decisions, that's on them.
Why would Blizzard want to be teaching new players "a valuable lesson" not to craft cards?
Blizzard is not teaching them a lesson. But they will learn anyway.
Did you just wake up one day and completely understand resource management in games? Have you never made a bad decision in your life? Have you ever started a game and already knew everything there is to know about the in-game economy and flow of changes?
If so, you might be a genius, congratulations. Not everyone is as lucky as you, and needs to learn it somehow.
So you go to websites and find information before you do stuff, or you make a mistake and learn from it.
I'm not entirely sure where you're going with this, but you seem to be sidetracked - the conversation is whether Blizzard should offer a refund or not.
Blizzard want people to buy pack and spend their dust on cards. Teaching them to not do that at the start of an expansion (or at any point for that matter) therefore makes no sense.
There's a good argument for both sides with a card with such specific text that it only synergizes with the exact cards that are being nerfed. I think it would be fair and maybe a gesture of goodwill for blizz to refund kargal for full dust, but for the consistency of the game I can also understand why they're probably not going to.
The original point was: should we get a dust refund for Kargal, even though he was not the nerfed card? No.
The response: But I crafted him and now I'm out of the dust. That's your fault for crafting early.
The counter response: But nobody told me that I shouldn't craft cards early in an expansion because I live under a rock. Still your fault.
The conclusion: Lesson learned.
I can see you're really trying to make this fit, however we still haven't explained why Blizzard should want to be teaching players life lessons instead of keeping them happy and buying packs.
I think Bliz really should refund this card because 2/3 of the cards that play off him got nerfed and unlike other synergies this is a very direct, forced and narrow synergy.
I also think not giving a refund sends a bad message to new players who are not aware of how risky it is to craft cards early in an expansion. Beyond catching new players offguard such practice discourages players of all kinds from experimenting with cards early in expansions when things are meant to be most exciting
I think the 2/3 stat wrecks the card. Soul shears and so many other cards can remove it. If they are going to give a 2/3 stat line then change the card so it can at least attack.
I'm amazed at how many people think they shouldn't offer a refund.
The card was obviously indirectly nerfed, so a refund should definitely be considered.
I believe this is the first case of a card indirectly nerfed in such a way. Yes, there are cases such as Saronite Chain Gang and Shudderwock, but the connection between those two cards was less direct. Kargal is 100% dependent on the Watch Posts.
Personally, I think it would be fair they offered a refund.
Furthermore, the argument they shouldn't offer a refund because it was stupid to craft the card in the first place is extremely bad for the game - not only it further promotes Tier 1 netdecking, which is already plaguing the game from day 1, it also punishes people for crafting the cards they like. And it's not the same as crafting a card that turns out to be bad, here the card was quite literally (indirectly) nerfed.
I believe Blizzard will end up doing the right thing and offer a refund, but let's wait and see.
The original point was: should we get a dust refund for Kargal, even though he was not the nerfed card? No.
The response: But I crafted him and now I'm out of the dust. That's your fault for crafting early.
The counter response: But nobody told me that I shouldn't craft cards early in an expansion because I live under a rock. Still your fault.
The conclusion: Lesson learned.
I can see you're really trying to make this fit, however we still haven't explained why Blizzard should want to be teaching players life lessons instead of keeping them happy and buying packs.
You're either confused or being disingenuous. You keep making the positive claim that Blizzard are wanting to teach a lesson. This isn't the poster's position (as I understand), stop strawmanning them.
We can all agree that Blizzard are not interested in actively teaching customers lessons. Take that off the table.
The issue here is that not everything can be spelled out for people. We've hand held people to the point where they genuinely struggle to think for themselves. I was part of a large scale move to working from project last year and honestly, the amount of people who came to me to ask if they should do x, they need milk, should they get it? They have tickets for a gig, should they go? People are just getting more and more accustomed to (and expecting) that any and all accountability, foresight or blame should lay with them.
Blizzard can't spell out each and every aspect of the game, how it works, the model etc. This information is readily available. I came into the game and dint know one person who played, didn't have any experience with similar games, didn't have a clue what the whole thing was about. I naturally learned things over time and also did some minor digging online to learn a bit more. I've never had an issue with being completely unaware of things like nerfs etc. I watched a few videos to help learn the game and discovered that there were several content creators. I had a little look at card reviews etc and it became very apparent that nerfs happen and I quickly cottoned on to the deal with them.
I've made mistakes, ballsed up because I didn't understand the dust system fully etc and that's fine, I'm a grown ass adult and knew afterwards 'ahhh, probably should have checked'.
It's unreasonable to expect the client to be full to brim with pointers, tips, forewarning etc. It would be a mess. The Hearthstone website will have a ton of information I can guarantee loads of new players haven't looked at.
If you literally load up a game and run at it without looking at ANY external references, then you need to accept that if you misunderstand something, that you probably could have prevented that yourself.
These things seperate reasonable people with common sense and..... The opposite. There are so many points of reference, forums, YouTube, the website, hearthpwn etc.
If we follow the same logic applied so far to all nerfed cards till date, we shouldn't receive a dust refund, but if we follow common sense, we should. This is a special case without a presedent in Hearthstone, so the final decision is up to Blizzard.
The original point was: should we get a dust refund for Kargal, even though he was not the nerfed card? No.
The response: But I crafted him and now I'm out of the dust. That's your fault for crafting early.
The counter response: But nobody told me that I shouldn't craft cards early in an expansion because I live under a rock. Still your fault.
The conclusion: Lesson learned.
I can see you're really trying to make this fit, however we still haven't explained why Blizzard should want to be teaching players life lessons instead of keeping them happy and buying packs.
You're either confused or being disingenuous. You keep making the positive claim that Blizzard are wanting to teach a lesson. This isn't the poster's position (as I understand), stop strawmanning them.
We can all agree that Blizzard are not interested in actively teaching customers lessons. Take that off the table.
The issue here is that not everything can be spelled out for people. We've hand held people to the point where they genuinely struggle to think for themselves. I was part of a large scale move to working from project last year and honestly, the amount of people who came to me to ask if they should do x, they need milk, should they get it? They have tickets for a gig, should they go? People are just getting more and more accustomed to (and expecting) that any and all accountability, foresight or blame should lay with them.
Blizzard can't spell out each and every aspect of the game, how it works, the model etc. This information is readily available. I came into the game and dint know one person who played, didn't have any experience with similar games, didn't have a clue what the whole thing was about. I naturally learned things over time and also did some minor digging online to learn a bit more. I've never had an issue with being completely unaware of things like nerfs etc. I watched a few videos to help learn the game and discovered that there were several content creators. I had a little look at card reviews etc and it became very apparent that nerfs happen and I quickly cottoned on to the deal with them.
I've made mistakes, ballsed up because I didn't understand the dust system fully etc and that's fine, I'm a grown ass adult and knew afterwards 'ahhh, probably should have checked'.
It's unreasonable to expect the client to be full to brim with pointers, tips, forewarning etc. It would be a mess. The Hearthstone website will have a ton of information I can guarantee loads of new players haven't looked at.
If you literally load up a game and run at it without looking at ANY external references, then you need to accept that if you misunderstand something, that you probably could have prevented that yourself.
These things seperate reasonable people with common sense and..... The opposite. There are so many points of reference, forums, YouTube, the website, hearthpwn etc.
You're either confused or being disingenuous. You keep making the positive claim that Blizzard are wanting to teach a lesson. This isn't the poster's position (as I understand), stop strawmanning them.
I'm not being disingenuous and I'm not confused. I'm certainly not straw manning. I'm not claiming that Blizzard want to teach anybody a lesson and I'm not claiming that this is the other posters position either. Read the conversation again. The other guy, and now you, have taken the conversation completely off topic, I was trying to get it back to something relevant. I.e how does a players ignorance effect how we're talking about Blizzards reaction to this nerf. You can either completely absolve Blizzard of any responsibility and say "well you should have known better" or we can look at a solution where everybody is happy.
I was trying to get the other poster to consider how Blizzard would benefit from giving players a hand instead of burning them and he kept on ignoring that aspect of the conversation to focus solely on how this is a "lesson learned".
Guess what Watchtowers were actually ones that was holding back the tickatus warlock all this time. Before they got nerfed I was always winning against the warlock now they got nerfed they are not staying at board as much as before and it became impossible to beat the warlock with the same deck.
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I think Bliz really should refund this card because 2/3 of the cards that play off him got nerfed and unlike other synergies this is a very direct, forced and narrow synergy.
I also think not giving a refund sends a bad message to new players who are not aware of how risky it is to craft cards early in an expansion. Beyond catching new players offguard such practice discourages players of all kinds from experimenting with cards early in expansions when things are meant to be most exciting
If a brand new player that just started HS and didn't know about this prior to this expansion, decided they would use all of their dust (without consulting a website for feedback) to craft a card that got "indirectly" nerfed and is sad about it... they have now learned a valuable lesson. Also, if they just started, they probably aren't too invested in the game yet and it's not a huge deal, either.
Anyone who has played this game for more than one expansion should know this is something that happens. Even if they never visited a forum once, card nerfs get announced when you log in. You could make the connection.
But really, ignorance isn't a good defense here. In this modern age, everyone has access to internet (how else are you even playing the game?), everyone can learn about all this stuff of their own free will. If people are choosing to make uninformed decisions, that's on them.
I think this is a great suggestion. Give the 2/2 tokens that can only be summoned on your opponents turn rush. That’ll fix the card...
Why would Blizzard want to be teaching new players "a valuable lesson" not to craft cards?
This time I agree, it does seem like a very forced/bundled package, and he was the expensive bit.
Lesson is to not craft before the first nerf wave, we usually get atleast one every expansion.
People love the whole "you only get burned once" and "you live and learn" arguments when it doesn't effect them, I suppose it makes them feel logical or something. Whatever.
From a corporations perspective though teaching your customers life lessons through their wallets seems counter productive.
if the watchpost are weaker or not, Kargal still give you the same amount of dudes on his battlecry. The rest depends on your deck. If the card dont have a good deck it will be bad with the actual post or with the nerfed post. Its a 7 mana summon a bunch of 5/5 which is game winning sometimes but most of the times just well...nope because other reasons not because of the watch post survavility. If the card is cut from decks is not even because of this nerf but because people want to tuned their decks to be better and that means use the best finishers. Kargal its maybe a bad finisher and people is just testing it for fun, maybe is better that we know and a later build proves us wrong.
Regardless of the outcome: the nerf of the Watch post dont affect him in any case. It affects the decks, not the card performance, yeah both are kind of linked but you cant refund ONE card that was not nerfed because the deck becomes worse. If that was the case just let me refund all my priest cards because with galakrond rotation all my priest decks become worse...
Blizzard is not teaching them a lesson. But they will learn anyway.
Did you just wake up one day and completely understand resource management in games? Have you never made a bad decision in your life? Have you ever started a game and already knew everything there is to know about the in-game economy and flow of changes?
If so, you might be a genius, congratulations. Not everyone is as lucky as you, and needs to learn it somehow.
So you go to websites and find information before you do stuff, or you make a mistake and learn from it.
I'm not entirely sure where you're going with this, but you seem to be sidetracked - the conversation is whether Blizzard should offer a refund or not.
Blizzard want people to buy pack and spend their dust on cards. Teaching them to not do that at the start of an expansion (or at any point for that matter) therefore makes no sense.
There's a good argument for both sides with a card with such specific text that it only synergizes with the exact cards that are being nerfed. I think it would be fair and maybe a gesture of goodwill for blizz to refund kargal for full dust, but for the consistency of the game I can also understand why they're probably not going to.
The original point was: should we get a dust refund for Kargal, even though he was not the nerfed card? No.
The response: But I crafted him and now I'm out of the dust. That's your fault for crafting early.
The counter response: But nobody told me that I shouldn't craft cards early in an expansion because I live under a rock. Still your fault.
The conclusion: Lesson learned.
I can see you're really trying to make this fit, however we still haven't explained why Blizzard should want to be teaching players life lessons instead of keeping them happy and buying packs.
you said it best
I think the 2/3 stat wrecks the card. Soul shears and so many other cards can remove it. If they are going to give a 2/3 stat line then change the card so it can at least attack.
If synergy justifies dust refund, I demand refund recompense for every spell in the game because of the lunacy nerf
I'm amazed at how many people think they shouldn't offer a refund.
The card was obviously indirectly nerfed, so a refund should definitely be considered.
I believe this is the first case of a card indirectly nerfed in such a way. Yes, there are cases such as Saronite Chain Gang and Shudderwock, but the connection between those two cards was less direct. Kargal is 100% dependent on the Watch Posts.
Personally, I think it would be fair they offered a refund.
Furthermore, the argument they shouldn't offer a refund because it was stupid to craft the card in the first place is extremely bad for the game - not only it further promotes Tier 1 netdecking, which is already plaguing the game from day 1, it also punishes people for crafting the cards they like. And it's not the same as crafting a card that turns out to be bad, here the card was quite literally (indirectly) nerfed.
I believe Blizzard will end up doing the right thing and offer a refund, but let's wait and see.
You're either confused or being disingenuous. You keep making the positive claim that Blizzard are wanting to teach a lesson. This isn't the poster's position (as I understand), stop strawmanning them.
We can all agree that Blizzard are not interested in actively teaching customers lessons. Take that off the table.
The issue here is that not everything can be spelled out for people. We've hand held people to the point where they genuinely struggle to think for themselves. I was part of a large scale move to working from project last year and honestly, the amount of people who came to me to ask if they should do x, they need milk, should they get it? They have tickets for a gig, should they go? People are just getting more and more accustomed to (and expecting) that any and all accountability, foresight or blame should lay with them.
Blizzard can't spell out each and every aspect of the game, how it works, the model etc. This information is readily available. I came into the game and dint know one person who played, didn't have any experience with similar games, didn't have a clue what the whole thing was about. I naturally learned things over time and also did some minor digging online to learn a bit more. I've never had an issue with being completely unaware of things like nerfs etc. I watched a few videos to help learn the game and discovered that there were several content creators. I had a little look at card reviews etc and it became very apparent that nerfs happen and I quickly cottoned on to the deal with them.
I've made mistakes, ballsed up because I didn't understand the dust system fully etc and that's fine, I'm a grown ass adult and knew afterwards 'ahhh, probably should have checked'.
It's unreasonable to expect the client to be full to brim with pointers, tips, forewarning etc. It would be a mess. The Hearthstone website will have a ton of information I can guarantee loads of new players haven't looked at.
If you literally load up a game and run at it without looking at ANY external references, then you need to accept that if you misunderstand something, that you probably could have prevented that yourself.
These things seperate reasonable people with common sense and..... The opposite. There are so many points of reference, forums, YouTube, the website, hearthpwn etc.
If we follow the same logic applied so far to all nerfed cards till date, we shouldn't receive a dust refund, but if we follow common sense, we should. This is a special case without a presedent in Hearthstone, so the final decision is up to Blizzard.
You're either confused or being disingenuous. You keep making the positive claim that Blizzard are wanting to teach a lesson. This isn't the poster's position (as I understand), stop strawmanning them.
I'm not being disingenuous and I'm not confused. I'm certainly not straw manning. I'm not claiming that Blizzard want to teach anybody a lesson and I'm not claiming that this is the other posters position either. Read the conversation again. The other guy, and now you, have taken the conversation completely off topic, I was trying to get it back to something relevant. I.e how does a players ignorance effect how we're talking about Blizzards reaction to this nerf. You can either completely absolve Blizzard of any responsibility and say "well you should have known better" or we can look at a solution where everybody is happy.
I was trying to get the other poster to consider how Blizzard would benefit from giving players a hand instead of burning them and he kept on ignoring that aspect of the conversation to focus solely on how this is a "lesson learned".
Guess what Watchtowers were actually ones that was holding back the tickatus warlock all this time. Before they got nerfed I was always winning against the warlock now they got nerfed they are not staying at board as much as before and it became impossible to beat the warlock with the same deck.