Honestly, I'm shocked Spring water made it out unscathed. I don't think that was a good idea, even if I play (non-lunacy) mage. It does put Mozaki mage in a better position, though, so can't complain too much! The issue with spring water is twofold: One, with mana reduction effects like flow it's draw and ramp (CA plus acceleration is dangerous); two: It's a slightly worse Gush (comparing 4 mana HS to 2 mana MTG, which isn't strictly true, plus Gush allows making land drop etc...), and gush isn't P9 level, let alone the few cards above that, but is still extremely strong. Free - or potentially free - spells should be watched carefuly, particularly draw.
...I literally never experienced this "Watch Posts completely shut down early game" thing people are talking about. It forced me to rethink my curve, but I never thought "wow, guess I lose".
pretty weak nerfs. Looks like rogue is getting hit quite a bit. Lunacy is basically the same deck. Paladin also. shame it took so long to just change the mana costs.
Are you just trolling? I can't believe someone can look at the Pen Flinger nerf and straight-facedly claim Paladin is "basically the same deck".
Anyway, the community should have nothing to compain about for the inevitable aggro surge coming up. Despite the constant malcontents, Lunacy heading up to 4 mana will be a relevant issue to that deck and Paladins may or may not still religiously run Flingers, but they've lost a reliable source of damage.
I imagine Control Warlock will enjoy a couple of days in the sun and then the aggro builds will get RE-refined and Tickatus and Jaraxxus will go back to being tier 2/3 bench warmers.
Evidence proves otherwise. Penflinger is just an average winrate card in libram Paladin according to hsreplay and is actually on the lower end of win rates. It’s just one of the options available to libram Paladin and it will most certainly find another way to oppress the meta.
...I literally never experienced this "Watch Posts completely shut down early game" thing people are talking about. It forced me to rethink my curve, but I never thought "wow, guess I lose".
you pass turn 1. Your opponent coins Far Watch Post. You have no removal on 2, and no playable card. Your opponent develops a minion. You draw another card, going to +1 mana. You pass. Your opponent plays Mankirk/other watch post. You see the problem here?
pretty weak nerfs. Looks like rogue is getting hit quite a bit. Lunacy is basically the same deck. Paladin also. shame it took so long to just change the mana costs.
Are you just trolling? I can't believe someone can look at the Pen Flinger nerf and straight-facedly claim Paladin is "basically the same deck".
Anyway, the community should have nothing to compain about for the inevitable aggro surge coming up. Despite the constant malcontents, Lunacy heading up to 4 mana will be a relevant issue to that deck and Paladins may or may not still religiously run Flingers, but they've lost a reliable source of damage.
I imagine Control Warlock will enjoy a couple of days in the sun and then the aggro builds will get RE-refined and Tickatus and Jaraxxus will go back to being tier 2/3 bench warmers.
Evidence proves otherwise. Penflinger is just an average winrate card in libram Paladin according to hsreplay and is actually on the lower end of win rates. It’s just one of the options available to libram Paladin and it will most certainly find another way to oppress the meta.
What winrate are you talking about? played or drawn?
Without Pen Flingers, Paladins will be unfavoured vs Control Warlocks by quite a margin. Secret Paladin should still be T1 but Libram Paladin will probably go to T2.
pretty weak nerfs. Looks like rogue is getting hit quite a bit. Lunacy is basically the same deck. Paladin also. shame it took so long to just change the mana costs.
Are you just trolling? I can't believe someone can look at the Pen Flinger nerf and straight-facedly claim Paladin is "basically the same deck".
Anyway, the community should have nothing to compain about for the inevitable aggro surge coming up. Despite the constant malcontents, Lunacy heading up to 4 mana will be a relevant issue to that deck and Paladins may or may not still religiously run Flingers, but they've lost a reliable source of damage.
I imagine Control Warlock will enjoy a couple of days in the sun and then the aggro builds will get RE-refined and Tickatus and Jaraxxus will go back to being tier 2/3 bench warmers.
Evidence proves otherwise. Penflinger is just an average winrate card in libram Paladin according to hsreplay and is actually on the lower end of win rates. It’s just one of the options available to libram Paladin and it will most certainly find another way to oppress the meta.
What winrate are you talking about? played or drawn?
Without Pen Flingers, Paladins will be unfavoured vs Control Warlocks by quite a margin. Secret Paladin should still be T1 but Libram Paladin will probably go to T2.
Across the board. Bad mulligan win rate (2 out of the bottom 10) and average drawn and played win rate. All “orange” win rates.
First day of school, Aldor attendant, Knight of anointment, hand of A’dal, libram of wisdom, sword of the fallen, northwatch commander, cariel roame, and Aldor Truthseeker all have higher mulligan, drawn, AND played winrate than pen flinger.
incanters flow and refreshing spring water should have been nerfed, not sure how these cards are going under the radar with how insanely strong they are
...I literally never experienced this "Watch Posts completely shut down early game" thing people are talking about. It forced me to rethink my curve, but I never thought "wow, guess I lose".
you pass turn 1. Your opponent coins Far Watch Post. You have no removal on 2, and no playable card. Your opponent develops a minion. You draw another card, going to +1 mana. You pass. Your opponent plays Mankirk/other watch post. You see the problem here?
Your hand would have to be absolutely horrible if you have literally no minions to play by turn 3.
And if your opponent is doing nothing but playing watch posts for 2 turns, they haven't really developed anything anyway.
Spring water not getting bumped to at least 5 is beyond bizarre. unless Blizz is releasing another tech card like Albatross in the near future the card will always be a 0 mana, draw 2
It’s only 0 mana draw 2 in spell mage. That archetype just got its highest winrate card nerfed. Spring water will still be great in the deck, but if the deck isn’t as strong overall then that’s not as much of an issue. If they’d nerfed both DoL and spring water, spell mage would be dead and buried.
Still not a fan of the card because it still boils down to "0 mana/ draw 4" for a no minion mage which is an insanely powerful tool. I would like to see if they could time the card down to something like Cutting Class which is an extremely powerful but fair card which requires some set-up and work in equipping/buffing a weapon in order to be taken full advantage of whereas Spring Water only requires you to make a deck with 0 minions.
I'd like to see where the class shakes out after the Lunacy nerf because maybe everything will be perfectly fine but I think the card should be more of the combo variety where it still costs 4 and replenishes 2 mana for every spell drawn but *only* if you've already played another spell in the turn.
So limiting your whole deck to spells isn’t sufficient setup to justify a powerful card? Spell mage was crap tier before the rotation and the only new tool it got was springwater and it lost quite a few tools.
incanters flow and refreshing spring water should have been nerfed, not sure how these cards are going under the radar with how insanely strong they are
finally someone gets it
Incanters flow has been around for a while and never amounted to much
pretty weak nerfs. Looks like rogue is getting hit quite a bit. Lunacy is basically the same deck. Paladin also. shame it took so long to just change the mana costs.
Are you just trolling? I can't believe someone can look at the Pen Flinger nerf and straight-facedly claim Paladin is "basically the same deck".
Anyway, the community should have nothing to compain about for the inevitable aggro surge coming up. Despite the constant malcontents, Lunacy heading up to 4 mana will be a relevant issue to that deck and Paladins may or may not still religiously run Flingers, but they've lost a reliable source of damage.
I imagine Control Warlock will enjoy a couple of days in the sun and then the aggro builds will get RE-refined and Tickatus and Jaraxxus will go back to being tier 2/3 bench warmers.
Evidence proves otherwise. Penflinger is just an average winrate card in libram Paladin according to hsreplay and is actually on the lower end of win rates. It’s just one of the options available to libram Paladin and it will most certainly find another way to oppress the meta.
What winrate are you talking about? played or drawn?
Without Pen Flingers, Paladins will be unfavoured vs Control Warlocks by quite a margin. Secret Paladin should still be T1 but Libram Paladin will probably go to T2.
Across the board. Bad mulligan win rate (2 out of the bottom 10) and average drawn and played win rate. All “orange” win rates.
You shouldn't take statistics like that with no thought behind it. It's normal that pen flinger is bad in the mulligan because it's a late game board control/burst finisher card. You're literally hoping to only get knight of anointment, aldor attendant, first day of school, sword and hand of adal. Average played winrate is clearly unindicative of anything, because paladin plays a pen flinger in almost every single game, and therefore the played winrate will be around the same as the deck's winrate. Sometimes you don't need to play them because you overwhelm the opponents so early with a big board, that you do not even need to play the flingers. Other times you just lose because you are forced to gamble your opponent not having a way to remove them. As for drawn winrate, it's 55.5 compared to 55.6, so there you go, virtually identical.
I think Incanter's Flow is at least as good as Wild Growth in terms of mana savings. (You save/gain one mana per turn if your deck is all spells and you can gain that bonus more quickly if you draw through your deck). Obviously Wild Growth is less of a dead card when drawn late game but there would be some precedent to set Incanter's Flow to 3 mana.
The nerfs are good and will bring some of the power down a bit for sure. The lunacy nerf is really shit though, I'm hoping after it rotates to wild we can get it unnerfed to 2 mana again. It feels like a panic bandaid fix when we all know the problem was the limited card pool. Lunacy has zero presence in wild at all so I'd like to meme with it once it's stopped messing standard up.
Dunno why people are so uptight about spring water. We've already got 0 mana draw 2 in the game: Cutting Class. Mage also frequently draws 2+ for 2 mana with cram session anyway. It's a whatever card.
Its neither lunacy, the limited spell pool(especially at 9 and 10 mana), the springwater, incanters flow, apexis blast. Its all these things existing together at the same time that creates the perfect storm.
...I literally never experienced this "Watch Posts completely shut down early game" thing people are talking about. It forced me to rethink my curve, but I never thought "wow, guess I lose".
you pass turn 1. Your opponent coins Far Watch Post. You have no removal on 2, and no playable card. Your opponent develops a minion. You draw another card, going to +1 mana. You pass. Your opponent plays Mankirk/other watch post. You see the problem here?
Your hand would have to be absolutely horrible if you have literally no minions to play by turn 3.
And if your opponent is doing nothing but playing watch posts for 2 turns, they haven't really developed anything anyway.
Those watchposts will ruin your entire game plan, if they stay up. If you always have early minions on curve, good for you, great even. But not every deck has them, and not every deck has to have them. The watchposts do too much, and if you cannot contest them on board, you should be able to remove them for at least their original cost.
I personally was screwed few times by watchposts but I think nerfing their attack would be more in flavor with their building type. But yeah I understand why it was way too hard to remove them.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Minion to minion the basic of all combats, only a fool trusts his win to an OTK"
The nerfs are good and will bring some of the power down a bit for sure. The lunacy nerf is really shit though, I'm hoping after it rotates to wild we can get it unnerfed to 2 mana again. It feels like a panic bandaid fix when we all know the problem was the limited card pool. Lunacy has zero presence in wild at all so I'd like to meme with it once it's stopped messing standard up.
Dunno why people are so uptight about spring water. We've already got 0 mana draw 2 in the game: Cutting Class. Mage also frequently draws 2+ for 2 mana with cram session anyway. It's a whatever card.
Spring Water is a bit too good. I am fine with cards that benefit from a specific deck build, but if you compare it to Cutting Class, to take advantage of this card you need to (a) build a deck with weapons and weapon buffs and (b) draw and play your weapons and weapon buffs. While Refreshing Spring Water only requires you to build a spell-heavy (or spell-only) deck in order for it to be a 0-mana draw 2, you don't have to draw or play any specific cards beforehand. That said I wouldn't agree with a nerf that makes it refresh only 1 mana as that would kill the whole spirit of the card and it would make it barely better than AI (and potentially worse than Cram Session), even in spell-only decks. However I could see it going to 5 mana in the near future
I have tried Kargal priest in wild... and I must say those nerfs will hit a lot... Warlocks had to use multiple removals for posts but now it will be easy to remove. But It will be probably playable anyway, priest has rally so.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Minion to minion the basic of all combats, only a fool trusts his win to an OTK"
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Honestly, I'm shocked Spring water made it out unscathed. I don't think that was a good idea, even if I play (non-lunacy) mage. It does put Mozaki mage in a better position, though, so can't complain too much! The issue with spring water is twofold: One, with mana reduction effects like flow it's draw and ramp (CA plus acceleration is dangerous); two: It's a slightly worse Gush (comparing 4 mana HS to 2 mana MTG, which isn't strictly true, plus Gush allows making land drop etc...), and gush isn't P9 level, let alone the few cards above that, but is still extremely strong. Free - or potentially free - spells should be watched carefuly, particularly draw.
...I literally never experienced this "Watch Posts completely shut down early game" thing people are talking about. It forced me to rethink my curve, but I never thought "wow, guess I lose".
Evidence proves otherwise. Penflinger is just an average winrate card in libram Paladin according to hsreplay and is actually on the lower end of win rates. It’s just one of the options available to libram Paladin and it will most certainly find another way to oppress the meta.
you pass turn 1. Your opponent coins Far Watch Post. You have no removal on 2, and no playable card. Your opponent develops a minion. You draw another card, going to +1 mana. You pass. Your opponent plays Mankirk/other watch post. You see the problem here?
What winrate are you talking about? played or drawn?
Without Pen Flingers, Paladins will be unfavoured vs Control Warlocks by quite a margin. Secret Paladin should still be T1 but Libram Paladin will probably go to T2.
Well, they basically nerfed everything that was beating mage
Across the board. Bad mulligan win rate (2 out of the bottom 10) and average drawn and played win rate. All “orange” win rates.
First day of school, Aldor attendant, Knight of anointment, hand of A’dal, libram of wisdom, sword of the fallen, northwatch commander, cariel roame, and Aldor Truthseeker all have higher mulligan, drawn, AND played winrate than pen flinger.
finally someone gets it
Your hand would have to be absolutely horrible if you have literally no minions to play by turn 3.
And if your opponent is doing nothing but playing watch posts for 2 turns, they haven't really developed anything anyway.
So limiting your whole deck to spells isn’t sufficient setup to justify a powerful card? Spell mage was crap tier before the rotation and the only new tool it got was springwater and it lost quite a few tools.
Incanters flow has been around for a while and never amounted to much
You shouldn't take statistics like that with no thought behind it. It's normal that pen flinger is bad in the mulligan because it's a late game board control/burst finisher card. You're literally hoping to only get knight of anointment, aldor attendant, first day of school, sword and hand of adal. Average played winrate is clearly unindicative of anything, because paladin plays a pen flinger in almost every single game, and therefore the played winrate will be around the same as the deck's winrate. Sometimes you don't need to play them because you overwhelm the opponents so early with a big board, that you do not even need to play the flingers. Other times you just lose because you are forced to gamble your opponent not having a way to remove them. As for drawn winrate, it's 55.5 compared to 55.6, so there you go, virtually identical.
I think Incanter's Flow is at least as good as Wild Growth in terms of mana savings. (You save/gain one mana per turn if your deck is all spells and you can gain that bonus more quickly if you draw through your deck). Obviously Wild Growth is less of a dead card when drawn late game but there would be some precedent to set Incanter's Flow to 3 mana.
The nerfs are good and will bring some of the power down a bit for sure. The lunacy nerf is really shit though, I'm hoping after it rotates to wild we can get it unnerfed to 2 mana again. It feels like a panic bandaid fix when we all know the problem was the limited card pool. Lunacy has zero presence in wild at all so I'd like to meme with it once it's stopped messing standard up.
Dunno why people are so uptight about spring water. We've already got 0 mana draw 2 in the game: Cutting Class. Mage also frequently draws 2+ for 2 mana with cram session anyway. It's a whatever card.
Its neither lunacy, the limited spell pool(especially at 9 and 10 mana), the springwater, incanters flow, apexis blast. Its all these things existing together at the same time that creates the perfect storm.
Those watchposts will ruin your entire game plan, if they stay up. If you always have early minions on curve, good for you, great even. But not every deck has them, and not every deck has to have them. The watchposts do too much, and if you cannot contest them on board, you should be able to remove them for at least their original cost.
I personally was screwed few times by watchposts but I think nerfing their attack would be more in flavor with their building type. But yeah I understand why it was way too hard to remove them.
"Minion to minion the basic of all combats, only a fool trusts his win to an OTK"
Spring Water is a bit too good. I am fine with cards that benefit from a specific deck build, but if you compare it to Cutting Class, to take advantage of this card you need to (a) build a deck with weapons and weapon buffs and (b) draw and play your weapons and weapon buffs. While Refreshing Spring Water only requires you to build a spell-heavy (or spell-only) deck in order for it to be a 0-mana draw 2, you don't have to draw or play any specific cards beforehand.
That said I wouldn't agree with a nerf that makes it refresh only 1 mana as that would kill the whole spirit of the card and it would make it barely better than AI (and potentially worse than Cram Session), even in spell-only decks. However I could see it going to 5 mana in the near future
I have tried Kargal priest in wild... and I must say those nerfs will hit a lot... Warlocks had to use multiple removals for posts but now it will be easy to remove. But It will be probably playable anyway, priest has rally so.
"Minion to minion the basic of all combats, only a fool trusts his win to an OTK"