If there is a relevant difference between combo and control with regards to this particular topic, I'm interested. I don't really think that people are losing to me because they don't understand the matchup, though. I suppose it's possible, but against control decks who draw lots of cards, the first priority of Tick Lock is to get Tickatus online and try to make sure you have enough time to mill as many cards as possible. It's been my experience that no one is holding Tickatus against me, and they obviously know I don't have C'thun in my deck due to the lack of animation of the 4 pieces splitting at the beginning of the game.
Control and combo decks can be similar simply because a combo deck needs to survive to pull off its combo, a good example would be the some of the OTK Paladin decks that used Shirvalah or the DK hero power. Some combo decks have so much draw that they have no semblance of control to them, like old Hakkar druid or Nomi decks. The real defining feature of most combo decks is a multi card high burst damage combo, like yours. I’d argue throwing C’Thun in the deck doesn’t make it a combo deck because it’s simply one card and a win condition when you need one, whereas the main goal of the deck is to starve your opponent of resources. Looking at your decklist the objective is to gain armor and slam 1 minion after you give it to your opponent. That’s a combo. And I’d still wager people have no clue what they’re playing against when you queue up against them. As I said that deck doesn’t exist on hsreply right now, which is a very popular source of deck information. From personal experience not knowing what your opponent playing can be quite disorienting. But now we’re delving into personal opinion. At any rate I applaud you going against the grain with deck choice.
Fair enough. I can go with that distinction.
I thought C'thun Warrior pretty much had to use him to win the game, but I suppose just adding the four cards gives you a potential fatigue win (the ultimate Chad win in control matchups) without actually playing him.
He’s also 3 removal tools and a 6/6 taunt too which is nice for control.
You're right, 72% played winrate is not sooo high....
A card could have a 100% winrate when played and still be garbage in any meta.
I dislike the design behind Tick, I really do, but his power level is always going to be determined by the speed in which other decks can kill you. If decks, control included, have early win conditions the current Tick lists are beatable.
But his win rates are relevant to discussion. Being simply a late game card with a win rate after play of over 70% indicates that warlock late game play is too effective. A control deck with an early win condition is not a control deck. Mecha’thun did have a similar issue, but given that the card had such strict requirements made it more fair for the most part, so the comparison isn’t that good.
Drawn WR is significantly more relevant than played WR. Malygos (original), Mecha'thun and similar are 100% played WR (or close enough). What's Tick's drawn WR?
Warrior? Who is that? More than 300 games in Stardard without see a single one of them, the class completely gone, done, dead, erradicated out of the existence until M-A-Y-B-E next expansion.
Interesting combo deck but as others have pointed out its not really control.
In a balanced meta there should be counters to everything, and if Lunacy/mage direct damage/mage infinite card draw get nerfed a bit I do see Warrior able to take a decent spot, beating almost everything fairly regularly except tickatus warlocks.
Never seen the ashbound silas shield slam thing though, maybe ill try running it in a control deck as a possible out
Warrior? Who is that? More than 300 games in Stardard without see a single one of them, the class completely gone, done, dead, erradicated out of the existence until M-A-Y-B-E next expansion.
i see a interesting amount of Warriors, not enough to make big numbers, on my rankeds. But the reason its pretty obvius. How can you play Warrior when mono-spell mage has not weakness?
Lets talk about Mage cards to see if the probably nerf of lunacy with totally stop mage: - Font of Power is still the strongest discover spell in standard because mage has not many minions which means they most likely hit atleast 1 of their legendary cards in each pull, not every time but most of the times.
- If you compare Quality vs Mana cost all lego cards of mage in rotation are better than the average legendary minions from other classes. That plus the fact that Font of power is just busted right now make Mage the only class that can pilot a non-lego deck and success because they always get atleast 1 legendary minion per man AND is always good. There is not RNG in terms of quality, for 2 mana they will get 3 great minions every single match.
- For point 1 and 2, mono-spell mage has not weakness at all. I imagine that not run minions and being unable to depend every match on your minion-gen spells is supposed to be a problem (atleast from design perspective) of this deck but right now that is not true at all. They dont just have a lot of good removal spells that can go face but also have very strong minions to play on curve to put pressure and save removal in their hand. Why is this a thing?
- Mage is the class with the most impactful hyper-fix rng cards of standard. deck of lunacy, evocation, Apexis blast (arguely the "worse"), rune orb, their prime legendary, devolving missiles, ring toss.
Honestly, warlock aside (and warlock can be beat by pure brute force of spell damage burn). Theres ANY class in the game that can outlast mage right now more than 50% of the times? I belive that the answer is obviusly no. There is not way you win against mage unless you start the game winning and never ever have a bad turn. Always play around the random secrets avoiding lose too much cards of your hand and dodge their hyper-rng spell burn damage burn. They have a f**king 7 mana deal 10 DAMAGE to the face if you just pass turn without play minions in their spell pull. And some people even main-deck one of those just because they know that the card is stupidly good on the long game.
Don't worry about control warrior or any other control deck.
Tickatus is one of the worst designed card ever... some ppl say: "ow, there is no tier1 deck with it, it is not that strong", but that is not the problem.
1- The card "destroys" all control archetypes.
2- There is no tier-1 deck with it now, but we can easily have during the year, control warlock is almost making the cut, and would be a much more fun deck to face without titackus (it already has different win conditions).
3- And most importante: THe card is NOT FUN. More than 50% of ppl don't like it (just check the pools here, on blizzard and reddit). If more than half of the community dont like the card, something is def wrong.
So no, control warrior and no other control deck will not "take over"
Don't worry about control warrior or any other control deck.
Tickatus is one of the worst designed card ever... some ppl say: "ow, there is no tier1 deck with it, it is not that strong", but that is not the problem.
1- The card "destroys" all control archetypes.
2- There is no tier-1 deck with it now, but we can easily have during the year, control warlock is almost making the cut, and would be a much more fun deck to face without titackus (it already has different win conditions).
3- And most importante: THe card is NOT FUN. More than 50% of ppl don't like it (just check the pools here, on blizzard and reddit). If more than half of the community dont like the card, something is def wrong.
So no, control warrior and no other control deck will not "take over"
I'd agree with all of this I think. I seem to be on the more tolerant, optimistic side of this community but honestly, I'm really, really done with Tickatus.
I've been trying various priest, warrior, mage (non spell) decks to get a feel for frenzy, hero power mage, spell/control priest.
I'm at a truly miserable win rate vs warlock because I'm almost always milled twice over. Now I do think better players than me will have more success using the same decks I've tried but it really does destroy so many decks I try.
You're right, 72% played winrate is not sooo high....
A card could have a 100% winrate when played and still be garbage in any meta.
I dislike the design behind Tick, I really do, but his power level is always going to be determined by the speed in which other decks can kill you. If decks, control included, have early win conditions the current Tick lists are beatable.
But his win rates are relevant to discussion. Being simply a late game card with a win rate after play of over 70% indicates that warlock late game play is too effective. A control deck with an early win condition is not a control deck. Mecha’thun did have a similar issue, but given that the card had such strict requirements made it more fair for the most part, so the comparison isn’t that good.
Drawn WR is significantly more relevant than played WR. Malygos (original), Mecha'thun and similar are 100% played WR (or close enough). What's Tick's drawn WR?
For the conversation at hand I’d say played win rate is better. We’re talking about the control matchup specifically and he’s a late game card. It doesn’t really matter if he was drawn, just that a game went long enough for him to be played.
dont care what anyone says warlock and tickitus are some of the most cancer thats in the game behind lunacy mage. people complain about pally but he isnt NEARLY as bad as the mage and lock
Paladin is stricly better than lock in the match. Also Tickatus is one of the cards that we need on the meta for actually punish mage if the nerf only slowdown the deck. I will said that you can hate Tickatus and i wont blame you for hating the card...i play Priest control (kinda auto lose to warlock for now) i understad perfectly how it feels losing to tickatus into jaraxxus into rustwix/Yshaar stuff. But paladin and mage are just stupidly busted. They win games even when they are losing on tempo/board/handsize. Because they cards are just too over the top. Not one card or two cards, half of their deck is stricly better than the cards of most classes in terms of value.
Guys I am playing control warrior only since the expansion launched, I've played hundreds of games and tried every combination possible, even to try wins against mages, warlock, etc., those are my conclusions so far:
-Etc win condition does not exist anymore, too little damage avaiable
-Ash tongue\Sylas win condition is almost impossible unless very passive matchups such as control priest.
-Any random mid-range deck will keep you always way below the armor needed to make the combo and there are very little and sub-par armor gain tools after skipper said goodbye.
-Scrapped Golem are very sub-optimal, burst mages and aggro shamans use devolving missile and u wasted 8 mana for a 1\1.
Priest may copy or soul mirror them and he get 9 armor and make you combo harder. They are good vs rogues, hunters and demon hunters but you win those matchups without them anyway and without combo anyway so it is a wasted slot. Druids gain lot of armors they always use the double armor spell and go out combo range always.
Not to mention he screw up the buff combo if you have a swordeater in hand, and you need those not only because it is a very good minion but he provide activator for cutlass which help draw.
-The only win-condition I've found the most consistent is rattlegore in mid to late game. Polymorph spell have already been used on Kargath at that point, so they can't remove it.
Also, as an added bonus I will add a very nice card I've found pretty useful agains warlocks and paladins: the new troll that swap minion on board with one in hand, can't remember the name.
It silences paladins librams and also he pulled out multiple times a Tickatus, you always know they have in hand when they do the annkward turn 7 play to corrupt it,
Well written and I agree, Shadow Hunter Vol'jin has a lot of potential for trying to mess up Tick Lock and others.
However, I just hit 28-13 with Silas Warrior against Tick Lock. It's not that hopeless a match. It's my hope that by the end of this meta, I will finally have enough individual stats that it actually IS a relevant sample size, at which point we can finally draw some conclusions.
I'm keeping track of a few stats like at what turn was a corrupted Tickatus played, my highest armor and their lowest life in game (two stats that have an obvious relevance when paired together). The conversation above about how hard it is to get to 30 armor is basically never an issue against Tick Lock, both because they help with armor vendors, and they rarely stay at 30 life.
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Enjoying Americans winning in the Olympics is forbidden because it is political. A 14 plus page discussion of state-sponsored lawsuits against a multi-national corporation based on harassment, discrimination, and wrongful death allegations is apparently not political enough to raise an issue.
Also, as an added bonus I will add a very nice card I've found pretty useful agains warlocks and paladins: the new troll that swap minion on board with one in hand, can't remember the name.
It silences paladins librams and also he pulled out multiple times a Tickatus, you always know they have in hand when they do the annkward turn 7 play to corrupt it,
I was thinking about this myself, unfortunately that card isn’t super good in many other matchups.
Well written and I agree, Shadow Hunter Vol'jin has a lot of potential for trying to mess up Tick Lock and others.
However, I just hit 28-13 with Silas Warrior against Tick Lock. It's not that hopeless a match. It's my hope that by the end of this meta, I will finally have enough individual stats that it actually IS a relevant sample size, at which point we can finally draw some conclusions.
How does your deck fair against, well everything else. It’s gotta be hard to maintain that armor level against aggro and mid range decks. Do you have a secondary win condition?
Also, as an added bonus I will add a very nice card I've found pretty useful agains warlocks and paladins: the new troll that swap minion on board with one in hand, can't remember the name.
It silences paladins librams and also he pulled out multiple times a Tickatus, you always know they have in hand when they do the annkward turn 7 play to corrupt it,
I was thinking about this myself, unfortunately that card isn’t super good in many other matchups.
Well written and I agree, Shadow Hunter Vol'jin has a lot of potential for trying to mess up Tick Lock and others.
However, I just hit 28-13 with Silas Warrior against Tick Lock. It's not that hopeless a match. It's my hope that by the end of this meta, I will finally have enough individual stats that it actually IS a relevant sample size, at which point we can finally draw some conclusions.
How does your deck fair against, well everything else. It’s gotta be hard to maintain that armor level against aggro and mid range decks. Do you have a secondary win condition?
LoL, against aggro you don't need the combo, just survive and you automatically win
Also, as an added bonus I will add a very nice card I've found pretty useful agains warlocks and paladins: the new troll that swap minion on board with one in hand, can't remember the name.
It silences paladins librams and also he pulled out multiple times a Tickatus, you always know they have in hand when they do the annkward turn 7 play to corrupt it,
I was thinking about this myself, unfortunately that card isn’t super good in many other matchups.
Well written and I agree, Shadow Hunter Vol'jin has a lot of potential for trying to mess up Tick Lock and others.
However, I just hit 28-13 with Silas Warrior against Tick Lock. It's not that hopeless a match. It's my hope that by the end of this meta, I will finally have enough individual stats that it actually IS a relevant sample size, at which point we can finally draw some conclusions.
How does your deck fair against, well everything else. It’s gotta be hard to maintain that armor level against aggro and mid range decks. Do you have a secondary win condition?
LoL, against aggro you don't need the combo, just survive and you automatically win
His list doesn’t seem to have much in the way of control though, which is why I’m curious
This is no argument. Played winrate is influenced by people playing cards when they already won the game. Example: I could play whisp in my deck and show you proof for it having a 100% played winrate just by always dropping it with lethal on board
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Warrior will still suck. Roguestone is coming back.
He’s also 3 removal tools and a 6/6 taunt too which is nice for control.
Rogue will be nerfed
How can a control beat 10 cards being discarted from your deck?
Drawn WR is significantly more relevant than played WR. Malygos (original), Mecha'thun and similar are 100% played WR (or close enough). What's Tick's drawn WR?
Warrior? Who is that? More than 300 games in Stardard without see a single one of them, the class completely gone, done, dead, erradicated out of the existence until M-A-Y-B-E next expansion.
Interesting combo deck but as others have pointed out its not really control.
In a balanced meta there should be counters to everything, and if Lunacy/mage direct damage/mage infinite card draw get nerfed a bit I do see Warrior able to take a decent spot, beating almost everything fairly regularly except tickatus warlocks.
Never seen the ashbound silas shield slam thing though, maybe ill try running it in a control deck as a possible out
i see a interesting amount of Warriors, not enough to make big numbers, on my rankeds. But the reason its pretty obvius. How can you play Warrior when mono-spell mage has not weakness?
Lets talk about Mage cards to see if the probably nerf of lunacy with totally stop mage:
- Font of Power is still the strongest discover spell in standard because mage has not many minions which means they most likely hit atleast 1 of their legendary cards in each pull, not every time but most of the times.
- If you compare Quality vs Mana cost all lego cards of mage in rotation are better than the average legendary minions from other classes. That plus the fact that Font of power is just busted right now make Mage the only class that can pilot a non-lego deck and success because they always get atleast 1 legendary minion per man AND is always good. There is not RNG in terms of quality, for 2 mana they will get 3 great minions every single match.
- For point 1 and 2, mono-spell mage has not weakness at all. I imagine that not run minions and being unable to depend every match on your minion-gen spells is supposed to be a problem (atleast from design perspective) of this deck but right now that is not true at all. They dont just have a lot of good removal spells that can go face but also have very strong minions to play on curve to put pressure and save removal in their hand. Why is this a thing?
- Mage is the class with the most impactful hyper-fix rng cards of standard. deck of lunacy, evocation, Apexis blast (arguely the "worse"), rune orb, their prime legendary, devolving missiles, ring toss.
Honestly, warlock aside (and warlock can be beat by pure brute force of spell damage burn). Theres ANY class in the game that can outlast mage right now more than 50% of the times? I belive that the answer is obviusly no. There is not way you win against mage unless you start the game winning and never ever have a bad turn. Always play around the random secrets avoiding lose too much cards of your hand and dodge their hyper-rng spell burn damage burn. They have a f**king 7 mana deal 10 DAMAGE to the face if you just pass turn without play minions in their spell pull. And some people even main-deck one of those just because they know that the card is stupidly good on the long game.
Don't worry about control warrior or any other control deck.
Tickatus is one of the worst designed card ever... some ppl say: "ow, there is no tier1 deck with it, it is not that strong", but that is not the problem.
1- The card "destroys" all control archetypes.
2- There is no tier-1 deck with it now, but we can easily have during the year, control warlock is almost making the cut, and would be a much more fun deck to face without titackus (it already has different win conditions).
3- And most importante: THe card is NOT FUN. More than 50% of ppl don't like it (just check the pools here, on blizzard and reddit). If more than half of the community dont like the card, something is def wrong.
So no, control warrior and no other control deck will not "take over"
I'd agree with all of this I think. I seem to be on the more tolerant, optimistic side of this community but honestly, I'm really, really done with Tickatus.
I've been trying various priest, warrior, mage (non spell) decks to get a feel for frenzy, hero power mage, spell/control priest.
I'm at a truly miserable win rate vs warlock because I'm almost always milled twice over. Now I do think better players than me will have more success using the same decks I've tried but it really does destroy so many decks I try.
For the conversation at hand I’d say played win rate is better. We’re talking about the control matchup specifically and he’s a late game card. It doesn’t really matter if he was drawn, just that a game went long enough for him to be played.
dont care what anyone says warlock and tickitus are some of the most cancer thats in the game behind lunacy mage. people complain about pally but he isnt NEARLY as bad as the mage and lock
Paladin is stricly better than lock in the match. Also Tickatus is one of the cards that we need on the meta for actually punish mage if the nerf only slowdown the deck. I will said that you can hate Tickatus and i wont blame you for hating the card...i play Priest control (kinda auto lose to warlock for now) i understad perfectly how it feels losing to tickatus into jaraxxus into rustwix/Yshaar stuff. But paladin and mage are just stupidly busted. They win games even when they are losing on tempo/board/handsize. Because they cards are just too over the top. Not one card or two cards, half of their deck is stricly better than the cards of most classes in terms of value.
unless they don't manage to burn Rattlegore, card can single handedly hard carry Warrior in Ctrl vs Ctrl
Guys I am playing control warrior only since the expansion launched, I've played hundreds of games and tried every combination possible, even to try wins against mages, warlock, etc., those are my conclusions so far:
-Etc win condition does not exist anymore, too little damage avaiable
-Ash tongue\Sylas win condition is almost impossible unless very passive matchups such as control priest.
-Any random mid-range deck will keep you always way below the armor needed to make the combo and there are very little and sub-par armor gain tools after skipper said goodbye.
-Scrapped Golem are very sub-optimal, burst mages and aggro shamans use devolving missile and u wasted 8 mana for a 1\1.
Priest may copy or soul mirror them and he get 9 armor and make you combo harder. They are good vs rogues, hunters and demon hunters but you win those matchups without them anyway and without combo anyway so it is a wasted slot. Druids gain lot of armors they always use the double armor spell and go out combo range always.
Not to mention he screw up the buff combo if you have a swordeater in hand, and you need those not only because it is a very good minion but he provide activator for cutlass which help draw.
-The only win-condition I've found the most consistent is rattlegore in mid to late game. Polymorph spell have already been used on Kargath at that point, so they can't remove it.
Also, as an added bonus I will add a very nice card I've found pretty useful agains warlocks and paladins: the new troll that swap minion on board with one in hand, can't remember the name.
It silences paladins librams and also he pulled out multiple times a Tickatus, you always know they have in hand when they do the annkward turn 7 play to corrupt it,
Well written and I agree, Shadow Hunter Vol'jin has a lot of potential for trying to mess up Tick Lock and others.
However, I just hit 28-13 with Silas Warrior against Tick Lock. It's not that hopeless a match. It's my hope that by the end of this meta, I will finally have enough individual stats that it actually IS a relevant sample size, at which point we can finally draw some conclusions.
I'm keeping track of a few stats like at what turn was a corrupted Tickatus played, my highest armor and their lowest life in game (two stats that have an obvious relevance when paired together). The conversation above about how hard it is to get to 30 armor is basically never an issue against Tick Lock, both because they help with armor vendors, and they rarely stay at 30 life.
Helpful Clarification on Forbidden Topics for Hearthstone Forums:
Enjoying Americans winning in the Olympics is forbidden because it is political. A 14 plus page discussion of state-sponsored lawsuits against a multi-national corporation based on harassment, discrimination, and wrongful death allegations is apparently not political enough to raise an issue.
I was thinking about this myself, unfortunately that card isn’t super good in many other matchups.
How does your deck fair against, well everything else. It’s gotta be hard to maintain that armor level against aggro and mid range decks. Do you have a secondary win condition?
LoL, against aggro you don't need the combo, just survive and you automatically win
His list doesn’t seem to have much in the way of control though, which is why I’m curious
This is no argument. Played winrate is influenced by people playing cards when they already won the game. Example: I could play whisp in my deck and show you proof for it having a 100% played winrate just by always dropping it with lethal on board