You guys are all assuming Mage will be dead after the Lunacy nerf. It won’t come close to hurting them. I play Spell Mage and most times I win without ever drawing Lunacy. It’s got high explosive burn damage potential and is very quick.
I don't see how the non-C'thun version of control warrior has much to worry about with Tickatus.
But, if you're having a different experience, just play the Silas/Ashtongue win condition. Their armor vendors will help you get there. And yes, I'm aware you're totally dependent on drawing Silas, just as they are totally dependent on drawing Tickatus.
The reality of the matchup is warrior will come out over 50%.
Vicious Syndicate typically had Control/Galakrond Warlock favored over Control Warrior, whether ETC or Silas-based. It is easier for Warlock to draw Tickatus than for Warrior to draw period, particularly with Shield Block rotating. Losing Shield block / Bloodsworn has pretty much killed Silas OTK as a reasonably consistent win condition.
Bloodsworn has nothing to do with the OTK win condition and Shield Block has at least been replaced with the 4/5 Frenzy draw guy as far as amount of draw one can include in a deck.
There have been countless instances where the population of players' matchup stats don't jive with the upper levels of play, and I would have to conclude from my own experiences that this is one of them. Having watched C'thun mages throw the game multiple times against Tickatus after they had it conclusively won, I'm going to take my own record in the matchup more seriously than the population's . . . NOT because the sample size is big enough to draw conclusive proof, but because the population is filled with players who have no concept of what they have to do to maximize their chances in an individual matchup.
Also, now that I'm thinking of it, the 4/5 frenzy guy plus outrider's axe points towards a much more consistent draw engine than shield block and . . . Battle rage? I guess.
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The OP forgot the most important thing of the puzzle. How the heck can Warrior gain 30 armor in the current state? Playing a 6 mana 5/5 doing nothing to board is as bad as a criminal offense now, you not playing Classic mode for god sake
Of all the games I've dropped to Tickatus with Silas warrior, not a single one involved not being able to get to the requisite amount of armor.
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You guys are all assuming Mage will be dead after the Lunacy nerf. It won’t come close to hurting them. I play Spell Mage and most times I win without ever drawing Lunacy. It’s got high explosive burn damage potential and is very quick.
No, we're just counting on multiple Mage cards being nerfed.
I've had some success with Commencement Control Warrior, even against Mage. Warrior still has a ridiculously powerful suite of removal, and nobody is playing around Brawl. I think Warrior is better positioned than people suspect but I doubt it will be dominant in a (theoretical) post-Spell Mage meta.
I’m going to pile on. Anyone saying “build your warrior like this or that” to beat warlock is wrong. There’s no way to build the warrior that’s going to help you against control lock. Build the deck to be the best against other matchups, and hope they draw tick/jaraxxus late.
Warrior doesn’t have access to anything that does what jaraxxus brings in control v. Control. And that’s completely aside from the lock milling 10 cards off your deck. It’s never going to be favorable for the warrior, IF they are a control warrior. I need to clarify this inb4 people say “build your warrior cheaper and more aggressive.” Which becomes midrange and not control.
Also, everybody here seems to be under the impression that every Control Warrior game would be versus Warlock. Even if Control Warrior's matchup against Controllock is bad, there's still 9 classes OTHER than Warlock that exist and see some amount of play. "Control can't exist if Tickatus exists" is an almost insane - absolutist - statement that goes contrary to how card games even work. A deck being the best of its kind doesn't preclude other decks of its kind from existing. And the amount of nuance that could go into playing the Control Warrior mirror, or against any other class (nuance which I thought Control players would be excited about since they get to wrinkle their brains while they play Hearthstone) is totally lost because Tickatus has everybody so scared to even consider other control options.
Even if a change in approach is required to deal with Tickatus, which I've already talked about, it wouldn't be a variant on the deck itself, it would just be how you play the matchup. Every matchup requires a different approach for most decks.
If anything, and people have mentioned this already, Lord Juraxxus is the far bigger issue for Control matchups. 2 mana for a 6/6 every turn is a far larger issue than Tick could impose, one that Warrior doesn't have the card generation to deal with for long if the game hits fatigue. Maybe we'll get some Dead Man's Hand retrain or something in the mini set, Blizzard is more aware than we think of things like this, they're just never preemptive.
Also, everybody here seems to be under the impression that every Control Warrior game would be versus Warlock. Even if Control Warrior's matchup against Controllock is bad, there's still 9 classes OTHER than Warlock that exist and see some amount of play. "Control can't exist if Tickatus exists" is an almost insane - absolutist - statement that goes contrary to how card games even work. A deck being the best of its kind doesn't preclude other decks of its kind from existing. And the amount of nuance that could go into playing the Control Warrior mirror, or against any other class (nuance which I thought Control players would be excited about since they get to wrinkle their brains while they play Hearthstone) is totally lost because Tickatus has everybody so scared to even consider other control options.
Even if a change in approach is required to deal with Tickatus, which I've already talked about, it wouldn't be a variant on the deck itself, it would just be how you play the matchup. Every matchup requires a different approach for most decks.
If anything, and people have mentioned this already, Lord Juraxxus is the far bigger issue for Control matchups. 2 mana for a 6/6 every turn is a far larger issue than Tick could impose, one that Warrior doesn't have the card generation to deal with for long if the game hits fatigue. Maybe we'll get some Dead Man's Hand retrain or something in the mini set, Blizzard is more aware than we think of things like this, they're just never preemptive.
It’s not that it can’t exist, it’s that it can’t be very competitive. There’s always fringe decks on ladder, that’s a given. It doesn’t mean they’re relevant or good. The moment a control deck gets played a reasonable amount, control lock will pop up to slap it down. That’s what we mean by oppressive.
20-11 against Tick lock with Silas. And counting . . .
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20-11 against Tick lock with Silas. And counting . . .
Can’t even find Silas Warrior on HS replay. The only deck on HS replay that uses Silas as far as I can tell is 1 version of control lock. It’s entirely possible your success is from people not knowing what they’re playing against. Kudos for that at the very least, but without more widespread data it’s hard to say with any certainty.
20-11 against Tick lock with Silas. And counting . . .
Can’t even find Silas Warrior on HS replay. The only deck on HS replay that uses Silas as far as I can tell is 1 version of control lock. It’s entirely possible your success is from people not knowing what they’re playing against. Kudos for that at the very least, but without more widespread data it’s hard to say with any certainty.
Just throwing this out there though, what you describe is a combo deck and not a control deck. Combo decks generally are good against control.
the devs are fine with Tickatus as long as you see him in less than 15% of all ladder games, once that's no longer the case they are nerfing him. Simple as that, no need to worry about him taking over the meta.
I don't see how the non-C'thun version of control warrior has much to worry about with Tickatus.
But, if you're having a different experience, just play the Silas/Ashtongue win condition. Their armor vendors will help you get there. And yes, I'm aware you're totally dependent on drawing Silas, just as they are totally dependent on drawing Tickatus.
The reality of the matchup is warrior will come out over 50%.
Vicious Syndicate typically had Control/Galakrond Warlock favored over Control Warrior, whether ETC or Silas-based. It is easier for Warlock to draw Tickatus than for Warrior to draw period, particularly with Shield Block rotating. Losing Shield block / Bloodsworn has pretty much killed Silas OTK as a reasonably consistent win condition.
Bloodsworn has nothing to do with the OTK win condition and Shield Block has at least been replaced with the 4/5 Frenzy draw guy as far as amount of draw one can include in a deck.
There have been countless instances where the population of players' matchup stats don't jive with the upper levels of play, and I would have to conclude from my own experiences that this is one of them. Having watched C'thun mages throw the game multiple times against Tickatus after they had it conclusively won, I'm going to take my own record in the matchup more seriously than the population's . . . NOT because the sample size is big enough to draw conclusive proof, but because the population is filled with players who have no concept of what they have to do to maximize their chances in an individual matchup.
Also, now that I'm thinking of it, the 4/5 frenzy guy plus outrider's axe points towards a much more consistent draw engine than shield block and . . . Battle rage? I guess.
The guy who has been arguing against anecdotal evidence for years is now arguing that his own anecdotal evidence is more valid than actual data........the hypocrisy is amazing.
I don't see how the non-C'thun version of control warrior has much to worry about with Tickatus.
But, if you're having a different experience, just play the Silas/Ashtongue win condition. Their armor vendors will help you get there. And yes, I'm aware you're totally dependent on drawing Silas, just as they are totally dependent on drawing Tickatus.
The reality of the matchup is warrior will come out over 50%.
damn this dude is in every thread speaking nonsense. Just a simple internet troll
I don't see how the non-C'thun version of control warrior has much to worry about with Tickatus.
But, if you're having a different experience, just play the Silas/Ashtongue win condition. Their armor vendors will help you get there. And yes, I'm aware you're totally dependent on drawing Silas, just as they are totally dependent on drawing Tickatus.
The reality of the matchup is warrior will come out over 50%.
damn this dude is in every thread speaking nonsense. Just a simple internet troll
No he actually believes what he’s saying but he also doesn’t understand the difference between a combo deck and a control deck.
I don't see how the non-C'thun version of control warrior has much to worry about with Tickatus.
But, if you're having a different experience, just play the Silas/Ashtongue win condition. Their armor vendors will help you get there. And yes, I'm aware you're totally dependent on drawing Silas, just as they are totally dependent on drawing Tickatus.
The reality of the matchup is warrior will come out over 50%.
Vicious Syndicate typically had Control/Galakrond Warlock favored over Control Warrior, whether ETC or Silas-based. It is easier for Warlock to draw Tickatus than for Warrior to draw period, particularly with Shield Block rotating. Losing Shield block / Bloodsworn has pretty much killed Silas OTK as a reasonably consistent win condition.
Bloodsworn has nothing to do with the OTK win condition and Shield Block has at least been replaced with the 4/5 Frenzy draw guy as far as amount of draw one can include in a deck.
There have been countless instances where the population of players' matchup stats don't jive with the upper levels of play, and I would have to conclude from my own experiences that this is one of them. Having watched C'thun mages throw the game multiple times against Tickatus after they had it conclusively won, I'm going to take my own record in the matchup more seriously than the population's . . . NOT because the sample size is big enough to draw conclusive proof, but because the population is filled with players who have no concept of what they have to do to maximize their chances in an individual matchup.
Also, now that I'm thinking of it, the 4/5 frenzy guy plus outrider's axe points towards a much more consistent draw engine than shield block and . . . Battle rage? I guess.
The guy who has been arguing against anecdotal evidence for years is now arguing that his own anecdotal evidence is more valid than actual data........the hypocrisy is amazing.
No, but your streak of straw men is definitely intact, you keep winning those arguments no one is having.
The phrase "more valid" appears nowhere in my post in spirit or letter. I explained very specifically why I find my experience more relevant than the population data; nowhere in that do I question the validity of population data. But then again, we've already been thru the definition of bad faith posting. Just like your "this guy hasn't heard of libram" stuff, you can't even come up with something that isn't already addressed by the post you're quoting.
Apologies to the other folks who commented on what I said, 3nnui has continually misquoted and lied about my posts for days now. As to the combo vs control distinction, there are times when that distinction is relevant, but I don't really see why control warrior that chooses to win with a three-card combo is suddenly not a control deck but a deck that chooses to win with a four-card combo (C'thun) is still control. I've seen several folks include C'thun warrior as a control deck without comment, so I assume those who call me out for "not understanding" the difference agree with that characterization.
If there is a relevant difference between combo and control with regards to this particular topic, I'm interested. I don't really think that people are losing to me because they don't understand the matchup, though. I suppose it's possible, but against control decks who draw lots of cards, the first priority of Tick Lock is to get Tickatus online and try to make sure you have enough time to mill as many cards as possible. It's been my experience that no one is holding Tickatus against me, and they obviously know I don't have C'thun in my deck due to the lack of animation of the 4 pieces splitting at the beginning of the game.
Finally, as to the accusation of trolling, no, I'm very sincere in my posts. If I'm posting for a reaction, I'll tell you that's what I'm doing.
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Helpful Clarification on Forbidden Topics for Hearthstone Forums:
Enjoying Americans winning in the Olympics is forbidden because it is political. A 14 plus page discussion of state-sponsored lawsuits against a multi-national corporation based on harassment, discrimination, and wrongful death allegations is apparently not political enough to raise an issue.
You guys are all assuming Mage will be dead after the Lunacy nerf. It won’t come close to hurting them. I play Spell Mage and most times I win without ever drawing Lunacy. It’s got high explosive burn damage potential and is very quick.
Bloodsworn has nothing to do with the OTK win condition and Shield Block has at least been replaced with the 4/5 Frenzy draw guy as far as amount of draw one can include in a deck.
There have been countless instances where the population of players' matchup stats don't jive with the upper levels of play, and I would have to conclude from my own experiences that this is one of them. Having watched C'thun mages throw the game multiple times against Tickatus after they had it conclusively won, I'm going to take my own record in the matchup more seriously than the population's . . . NOT because the sample size is big enough to draw conclusive proof, but because the population is filled with players who have no concept of what they have to do to maximize their chances in an individual matchup.
Also, now that I'm thinking of it, the 4/5 frenzy guy plus outrider's axe points towards a much more consistent draw engine than shield block and . . . Battle rage? I guess.
Helpful Clarification on Forbidden Topics for Hearthstone Forums:
Enjoying Americans winning in the Olympics is forbidden because it is political. A 14 plus page discussion of state-sponsored lawsuits against a multi-national corporation based on harassment, discrimination, and wrongful death allegations is apparently not political enough to raise an issue.
The OP forgot the most important thing of the puzzle. How the heck can Warrior gain 30 armor in the current state? Playing a 6 mana 5/5 doing nothing to board is as bad as a criminal offense now, you not playing Classic mode for god sake
Of all the games I've dropped to Tickatus with Silas warrior, not a single one involved not being able to get to the requisite amount of armor.
Helpful Clarification on Forbidden Topics for Hearthstone Forums:
Enjoying Americans winning in the Olympics is forbidden because it is political. A 14 plus page discussion of state-sponsored lawsuits against a multi-national corporation based on harassment, discrimination, and wrongful death allegations is apparently not political enough to raise an issue.
No, we're just counting on multiple Mage cards being nerfed.
I've had some success with Commencement Control Warrior, even against Mage. Warrior still has a ridiculously powerful suite of removal, and nobody is playing around Brawl. I think Warrior is better positioned than people suspect but I doubt it will be dominant in a (theoretical) post-Spell Mage meta.
This. Until Tick gets nerfed hard or rotates out, control is dead.
I’m going to pile on. Anyone saying “build your warrior like this or that” to beat warlock is wrong. There’s no way to build the warrior that’s going to help you against control lock. Build the deck to be the best against other matchups, and hope they draw tick/jaraxxus late.
Warrior doesn’t have access to anything that does what jaraxxus brings in control v. Control. And that’s completely aside from the lock milling 10 cards off your deck. It’s never going to be favorable for the warrior, IF they are a control warrior. I need to clarify this inb4 people say “build your warrior cheaper and more aggressive.” Which becomes midrange and not control.
Also, everybody here seems to be under the impression that every Control Warrior game would be versus Warlock. Even if Control Warrior's matchup against Controllock is bad, there's still 9 classes OTHER than Warlock that exist and see some amount of play. "Control can't exist if Tickatus exists" is an almost insane - absolutist - statement that goes contrary to how card games even work. A deck being the best of its kind doesn't preclude other decks of its kind from existing. And the amount of nuance that could go into playing the Control Warrior mirror, or against any other class (nuance which I thought Control players would be excited about since they get to wrinkle their brains while they play Hearthstone) is totally lost because Tickatus has everybody so scared to even consider other control options.
Even if a change in approach is required to deal with Tickatus, which I've already talked about, it wouldn't be a variant on the deck itself, it would just be how you play the matchup. Every matchup requires a different approach for most decks.
If anything, and people have mentioned this already, Lord Juraxxus is the far bigger issue for Control matchups. 2 mana for a 6/6 every turn is a far larger issue than Tick could impose, one that Warrior doesn't have the card generation to deal with for long if the game hits fatigue. Maybe we'll get some Dead Man's Hand retrain or something in the mini set, Blizzard is more aware than we think of things like this, they're just never preemptive.
please don't bully my son
It’s not that it can’t exist, it’s that it can’t be very competitive. There’s always fringe decks on ladder, that’s a given. It doesn’t mean they’re relevant or good. The moment a control deck gets played a reasonable amount, control lock will pop up to slap it down. That’s what we mean by oppressive.
20-11 against Tick lock with Silas. And counting . . .
Helpful Clarification on Forbidden Topics for Hearthstone Forums:
Enjoying Americans winning in the Olympics is forbidden because it is political. A 14 plus page discussion of state-sponsored lawsuits against a multi-national corporation based on harassment, discrimination, and wrongful death allegations is apparently not political enough to raise an issue.
Can’t even find Silas Warrior on HS replay. The only deck on HS replay that uses Silas as far as I can tell is 1 version of control lock. It’s entirely possible your success is from people not knowing what they’re playing against. Kudos for that at the very least, but without more widespread data it’s hard to say with any certainty.
Can’t even find Silas Warrior on HS replay. The only deck on HS replay that uses Silas as far as I can tell is 1 version of control lock. It’s entirely possible your success is from people not knowing what they’re playing against. Kudos for that at the very least, but without more widespread data it’s hard to say with any certainty.
Just throwing this out there though, what you describe is a combo deck and not a control deck. Combo decks generally are good against control.
the devs are fine with Tickatus as long as you see him in less than 15% of all ladder games, once that's no longer the case they are nerfing him. Simple as that, no need to worry about him taking over the meta.
The guy who has been arguing against anecdotal evidence for years is now arguing that his own anecdotal evidence is more valid than actual data........the hypocrisy is amazing.
damn this dude is in every thread speaking nonsense. Just a simple internet troll
New control decks won't be able to flourish until they nerf Tickatus. Simple as that.
No he actually believes what he’s saying but he also doesn’t understand the difference between a combo deck and a control deck.
No, but your streak of straw men is definitely intact, you keep winning those arguments no one is having.
The phrase "more valid" appears nowhere in my post in spirit or letter. I explained very specifically why I find my experience more relevant than the population data; nowhere in that do I question the validity of population data. But then again, we've already been thru the definition of bad faith posting. Just like your "this guy hasn't heard of libram" stuff, you can't even come up with something that isn't already addressed by the post you're quoting.
Apologies to the other folks who commented on what I said, 3nnui has continually misquoted and lied about my posts for days now. As to the combo vs control distinction, there are times when that distinction is relevant, but I don't really see why control warrior that chooses to win with a three-card combo is suddenly not a control deck but a deck that chooses to win with a four-card combo (C'thun) is still control. I've seen several folks include C'thun warrior as a control deck without comment, so I assume those who call me out for "not understanding" the difference agree with that characterization.
If there is a relevant difference between combo and control with regards to this particular topic, I'm interested. I don't really think that people are losing to me because they don't understand the matchup, though. I suppose it's possible, but against control decks who draw lots of cards, the first priority of Tick Lock is to get Tickatus online and try to make sure you have enough time to mill as many cards as possible. It's been my experience that no one is holding Tickatus against me, and they obviously know I don't have C'thun in my deck due to the lack of animation of the 4 pieces splitting at the beginning of the game.
Finally, as to the accusation of trolling, no, I'm very sincere in my posts. If I'm posting for a reaction, I'll tell you that's what I'm doing.
Helpful Clarification on Forbidden Topics for Hearthstone Forums:
Enjoying Americans winning in the Olympics is forbidden because it is political. A 14 plus page discussion of state-sponsored lawsuits against a multi-national corporation based on harassment, discrimination, and wrongful death allegations is apparently not political enough to raise an issue.
That depends Jaraxxus can take over Warrior in the late game pretty sure.