Pen flinger should deal 1 damage to a random enemy and the weapon would be fine at 3 mana. Other than that no changes are needed to paladin
A good nerf is change the weapon to 2/3 and increase the cost to 4, what makes this weapon so broken is cheating mana and resources from the deck way earlier in the game, even MC is garbage in comparison.
I would possibly nerf librams, but really my issue is with penflinger. Its just so damn slow. Secrets can be played around - back when mysterious challenger was meta learning to play around the secrets, order of plays and such was actually quite fun IMO.
The main issue I have with Yogg, actually, is that it's looking for all spells to cast, not just the ones that CAN be cast. about 6-7 times out of 10 it picks a spell than can't be cast and so you get nothing. This becomes a 1-mana Counterspell, which costs 3. Make it so that the spell gets cast every time for some effect and perhaps even upgrade it by a level i.e. you cast 2-mana spell and get 3-mana instead. The point of this secret is to mess up your gameplan, which it would still do, but randomize the effect smartly, not like it's now.
The main issue I have with Yogg, actually, is that it's looking for all spells to cast, not just the ones that CAN be cast. about 6-7 times out of 10 it picks a spell than can't be cast and so you get nothing. This becomes a 1-mana Counterspell, which costs 3. Make it so that the spell gets cast every time for some effect and perhaps even upgrade it by a level i.e. you cast 2-mana spell and get 3-mana instead. The point of this secret is to mess up your gameplan, which it would still do, but randomize the effect smartly, not like it's now.
Would also prefer that it had the Solarian Prime mechanic of "targets enemies if possible". I would prefer not to fireball myself in the face.
Knowing Blizzard they'll probably do something like 'pen flinger can now only target minions' and then take a month or two to see if that solves the problem.
All jokes aside, the release of forged in the barrens has been one of the least enjoyable experiences I've had in hearthstone in a very long time. It's to be expected that some cards/archetypes are overtuned on release but currently they are so blatantly overpowered that I don't understand why nothing is being done about it immediately. I love the game but I have never been so discouraged to play standard.
Personally I think that Paladin is way too strong - it can have all packages played, which is so powerfull...
Libram paladin - one of the strongest packages in HS, extremely consistent. The issue is not libram package by itself, but that it is endless and even if you devolve/silence, they have card to give them back to you by Lady Liadrin.
Secret package - the weapon is the issue for me. Smoothing your deck so you dont draw them, but you play it automatically is just way too strong - it makes your draw much better with every swing. Dropping it to 1/2 would solve it a bit.
Dude paladin - not strong by itself, but has insane value from 1 mana spell give 1-3 minions +3 damage. Can snowball out of control quickly.
Thats my issue - all of those archetypes are strong, works well, while some other classes has nothing. It is reflected in winrate - Paladin has 57%, Mage 52%, the rest under 50% and some close to 40%.
If you check winrates, it is quite obvious:
Secret+libram - 63% on 120k games.
Secret - 59.5% on 95k games.
Dude - 60% on 6200 games.
Broom - 58.5% on 12k games.
Those are insane winrates for 4 different archetypes with most played decks. If you compare it with mage, he has 55% on 190k games or 60% on 60k games. Warlock has 56% winrate, Priest has 49.9%...
So yeah, I would say it is not about single card problem, but generally about insane synergy, which the class has across different archetypes while others got nothing.
I think the weapon should be changed so it draws a secret with each swing, rather than casting one from your deck. That would slow down the paladin early game a lot, no more curving from the weapon on two into Northwatch Commander on three.
Also I fully support penflinger being limited to minions, it's such an unfair card. And that's coming from someone who plays libram paladin.
It'll be hard for them to nerf anything without destroying the card or paladin when I think about it more.
If pen flinger goes to 2 mana, target minion only, face only or a random minion or has a limit on its return in any form it utterly deletes the card from the game.
Same with sword going to 3 mana or losing durability is basically deleting the card to unplayability.
Not sure what blizzard can really change without essentially removing the cards.
The secret weapon and Flinger will see nerf for sure, this alosne will lower the power level of librams.
the weapon nerf might make the entire secret package (including the 3/4 that draws) not good, as a result Libram synergy will decrease because there is no card cycle.
I dont think they will nerf Librams directly, without card draw the Librams becomes insufficient.
2 mana Watchpost to 3 health. Honestly just kill this card, I don't care. Just give a refund on the legendary if they kill it.
This. 2/4 for 2 mana and a busted effect is incredibly overpowered. It’s so hard to kill and if they get 2 on the board you just lose. There’s not many ways to come back from that. Losing games on turn 2 or 3 just isn’t fun at all.
Like most people are saying in this post Pen Flinger is the only card in my mind that needs to change. It's the only thing that gives pally any reach. Because of Pen Flinger they don't have to run consecration any more. A nerf to pen flinger won't make libram pally much worse it'll just require them to make necessary trades instead of an infinite cycle.
If the weapon were to be nerfed i would say just make it draw a secret not put it into play
Like most people are saying in this post Pen Flinger is the only card in my mind that needs to change. It's the only thing that gives pally any reach. Because of Pen Flinger they don't have to run consecration any more. A nerf to pen flinger won't make libram pally much worse it'll just require them to make necessary trades instead of an infinite cycle.
If the weapon were to be nerfed i would say just make it draw a secret not put it into play
EXACTLY!
Having infinite face damage should not be a thing for paladin. Still, a nerf will only cut those half ass wins, where the opponent has board control, but not 11+ health and massive burst to survive the flingers, so the deck will still be fine.
I thought of just cutting one durability, but maybe it's healthier to still have the card value, in a slower and more tactical way
2 mana Watchpost to 3 health. Honestly just kill this card, I don't care. Just give a refund on the legendary if they kill it.
This. 2/4 for 2 mana and a busted effect is incredibly overpowered. It’s so hard to kill and if they get 2 on the board you just lose. There’s not many ways to come back from that. Losing games on turn 2 or 3 just isn’t fun at all.
With all due respect, it really sounds like your decks are built in a very strange way if you can't clear a 2/4 by turn 4. or if an increased mana cost on a few cards costs you the game. I have literally never had a problem with this card over a multitude of tempo and control decks.
Those nerfs are absolute batshit insane. Nerfs AND buffs have shown that the tiniest change to something, whether it's cost or effect, makes a massive difference. You're just destroying cards.
Nah, he doest. I dont see " your charge minions have +1 attack" anywhere in his suggestion
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A good nerf is change the weapon to 2/3 and increase the cost to 4, what makes this weapon so broken is cheating mana and resources from the deck way earlier in the game, even MC is garbage in comparison.
I would possibly nerf librams, but really my issue is with penflinger. Its just so damn slow. Secrets can be played around - back when mysterious challenger was meta learning to play around the secrets, order of plays and such was actually quite fun IMO.
Pen Flinger only hits minions, returns at end of turn.
Weapon to a 1/2
Libram of Hope to a 5/8
Maybe make Hand of A'dal +1/+2?
I don't know what else is really necessary.
The main issue I have with Yogg, actually, is that it's looking for all spells to cast, not just the ones that CAN be cast. about 6-7 times out of 10 it picks a spell than can't be cast and so you get nothing. This becomes a 1-mana Counterspell, which costs 3. Make it so that the spell gets cast every time for some effect and perhaps even upgrade it by a level i.e. you cast 2-mana spell and get 3-mana instead. The point of this secret is to mess up your gameplan, which it would still do, but randomize the effect smartly, not like it's now.
Would also prefer that it had the Solarian Prime mechanic of "targets enemies if possible". I would prefer not to fireball myself in the face.
Knowing Blizzard they'll probably do something like 'pen flinger can now only target minions' and then take a month or two to see if that solves the problem.
All jokes aside, the release of forged in the barrens has been one of the least enjoyable experiences I've had in hearthstone in a very long time. It's to be expected that some cards/archetypes are overtuned on release but currently they are so blatantly overpowered that I don't understand why nothing is being done about it immediately. I love the game but I have never been so discouraged to play standard.
I want to see these:
Animated Broomstick to 2 mana.
Secret Weapon to 2 Durability.
Pen Flinger can only target minions.
2 mana Watchpost to 3 health. Honestly just kill this card, I don't care. Just give a refund on the legendary if they kill it.
Secret Passage to 3 cards OR 2 mana.
Deck of Lunacy to 4 mana.
Tickatusrework not for being too powerful, but for being horrible card design.
Something to tone down secret mage in wild.
Personally I think that Paladin is way too strong - it can have all packages played, which is so powerfull...
Thats my issue - all of those archetypes are strong, works well, while some other classes has nothing. It is reflected in winrate - Paladin has 57%, Mage 52%, the rest under 50% and some close to 40%.
If you check winrates, it is quite obvious:
Those are insane winrates for 4 different archetypes with most played decks. If you compare it with mage, he has 55% on 190k games or 60% on 60k games. Warlock has 56% winrate, Priest has 49.9%...
So yeah, I would say it is not about single card problem, but generally about insane synergy, which the class has across different archetypes while others got nothing.
I think the weapon should be changed so it draws a secret with each swing, rather than casting one from your deck. That would slow down the paladin early game a lot, no more curving from the weapon on two into Northwatch Commander on three.
Also I fully support penflinger being limited to minions, it's such an unfair card. And that's coming from someone who plays libram paladin.
It'll be hard for them to nerf anything without destroying the card or paladin when I think about it more.
If pen flinger goes to 2 mana, target minion only, face only or a random minion or has a limit on its return in any form it utterly deletes the card from the game.
Same with sword going to 3 mana or losing durability is basically deleting the card to unplayability.
Not sure what blizzard can really change without essentially removing the cards.
The secret weapon and Flinger will see nerf for sure, this alosne will lower the power level of librams.
the weapon nerf might make the entire secret package (including the 3/4 that draws) not good,
as a result Libram synergy will decrease because there is no card cycle.
I dont think they will nerf Librams directly, without card draw the Librams becomes insufficient.
This. 2/4 for 2 mana and a busted effect is incredibly overpowered. It’s so hard to kill and if they get 2 on the board you just lose. There’s not many ways to come back from that. Losing games on turn 2 or 3 just isn’t fun at all.
Like most people are saying in this post Pen Flinger is the only card in my mind that needs to change. It's the only thing that gives pally any reach. Because of Pen Flinger they don't have to run consecration any more. A nerf to pen flinger won't make libram pally much worse it'll just require them to make necessary trades instead of an infinite cycle.
If the weapon were to be nerfed i would say just make it draw a secret not put it into play
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EXACTLY!
Having infinite face damage should not be a thing for paladin. Still, a nerf will only cut those half ass wins, where the opponent has board control, but not 11+ health and massive burst to survive the flingers, so the deck will still be fine.
I thought of just cutting one durability, but maybe it's healthier to still have the card value, in a slower and more tactical way
I don't think Libram of Hope is a problem really, the other nerfs you have listed should be enough
With all due respect, it really sounds like your decks are built in a very strange way if you can't clear a 2/4 by turn 4. or if an increased mana cost on a few cards costs you the game. I have literally never had a problem with this card over a multitude of tempo and control decks.
BTW, Oh My Yogg! shouldn't be casted on quests.
Nah, he doest. I dont see " your charge minions have +1 attack" anywhere in his suggestion