"because democracy basically means government by the people, of the people, for the people, but the people are retarded. So let us say: government by the retarded, for the retarded, of the retarded." - Osho Rajneesh
just because your deck loses to this shaman deck doesn't mean it needs changed. maybe another deck loses to your deck all the time but I'm sure you think that is alright. am I correct?
We may just have to wait till March or April for rotations, evolve shaman will die with the rotations. Just tech an ooze and board clears or play aggro. I am guessing Blizz wants shaman to be viable for a short time.
I rarely lose to Shaman with my Aggro DH. Just trade efficiently, then slam face. They usually concede because they have no board clears. But, as others have said, just tech against what you see most on ladder. No one wins all games, but if you can have a 51% or better winrate, that’s positive. good luck.
People tend to misunderstand how meta works. In fact we can compare meta to a terrorist organization. Everyone hates their leader, but even if you kill him, nothing will change. Someone new will take his place. If Blizzard kills Evolve Shaman, probably DH will be the next culprit, or maybe Paladin, who knows? Meta has always worked like that (even in the OG Vanilla times). There always are decks that are over- and underperforming and that's just natural, so we have to bear with it.
It's too early to call evolve Shaman overpowered and even if he is,l killing the deck is not the answer.
Let's not forget that before the latest expansion bogspine knuckles wasn't in anyone's mind as a dangerous card. If action needs to be taken, it should hit the supporting cast and allow the deck to be playable.
People tend to misunderstand how meta works. In fact we can compare meta to a terrorist organization. Everyone hates their leader, but even if you kill him, nothing will change. Someone new will take his place. If Blizzard kills Evolve Shaman, probably DH will be the next culprit, or maybe Paladin, who knows? Meta has always worked like that (even in the OG Vanilla times). There always are decks that are over- and underperforming and that's just natural, so we have to bear with it.
I agree and have two comments. 1) Before the nerfs in DH, I was playing with Evolve Shaman with 80% WR. When Evolve was move to the top, my WR feel a lot since 2 Kobold Stickyfinger was added in every deck. Sometimes you don't need kill a card to beat a top deck, just to adapt with few cards and evolve decks will not be so interesting. 2) In the other side, I think that meta is really good, you can see all classes in top 100.
Who cares if they nerf this deck into the ground? The deck's gameplan is garbage. I can't believe after all this time, the only way Blizzard can think to put Shaman back in the meta is board flood into evolve. The mana cheating is extreme, the RNG is extreme, but most importantly, the two combine to resulty in even a low roll on the evolve cheating huge amounts of stats.
Sometimes as early as turn 4...Weapon can be tutored so no later than turn 6.
The direct counter decks stopping this deck dominating the low end of comeptitive hearthstone (Diamond 5 all the weay to top 1000), and the entire ladder beneath it with all the casual Timmys (who love this kind of deck, I know, that is not lost on me) was aggro DH and Hunter. Both nerfed. Great. I predicted this (and made a ranty post on it, check history if you like) before they did and ...behold...I saw the future. The elements will destroy you!..well the elements or a flood of totally unfair, mana cheated random shit. Yay.
Blizzard should be doing all in it's power to keep this type of gameplay off the top of the pile, becasue it barely even qualifies as 'gameplay' - Ultra aggro, combo, control, zoo, spell damage, Mid range, OTK, tempo....whatever the fuck....just not this.... I'll be in battlegrounds.
just because your deck loses to this shaman deck doesn't mean it needs changed. maybe another deck loses to your deck all the time but I'm sure you think that is alright. am I correct?
Whilst I think the OP's suggested changes are way too much, I don't think you can just write off how strong and consistent this deck is. I personally feel that tweaking the knuckles to 6 mana would be enough. I do find that a good amount of games I lose to evolve shaman I'm left feeling like I was just a turn away from being able to stabilise a bit and potentially still lose but at least be able to have an extra push.
I understand that high rolls aren't the way to judge a deck but I've had more than just a couple of games where I've rinsed all the board clears I have as warrior and come turn 9 there's just one refill too many and I lose anyway.
I'm never behind killing a deck and rarely support nerfs but this just feels a bit too tight and consistent. I do typically play 'off meta' decks though so I do appreciate I may be causing some of my problems but still, upping it to 6 mana doesn't appear to me that the deck dies, it just might not steam roll as often by turn 5.
Anyone who thinks Evolve Shaman is fine right now is clearly running the deck themselves. I think you’re mistaken about these nerfs though. Obviously it’s Cagematch Custodian and to a certain extent Pit Master that are putting this deck over the edge, as Evolve Shaman was not nearly as prevalent before. Allowing a player to have Knuckles in hand almost every single game by turn 4 is a huge mistake and the consistency needs to be brought down a couple notches. Custodian should cost 3 or have overload, or both, I mean just something to delay the incoming massive boards that they can create. Pit Master is also noticeably stronger than Desert Hare because the tokens’ higher stats have more survivability, but I don’t think it’s as defining as the reliable weapon draw. I think the corrupt mechanic is actually a decent way to balance it on paper, though you can hardly tell from how hard the deck steamrolls anyway.
Yeah Kobold Stickyfiner just ruins shaman, because they can’t even reload off the 4/2 pirate (I forget what it’s called). People just need to learn how to tech for the meta and stop whining about every powerful deck.
Feels like OP is getting a lot of flak for suggesting changes, though I don’t agree with the sentiment that evolve is getting “tired.” Shaman has had no place in the meta for a long time, and it’s a little refreshing to see it present again albeit with a swingy RNG archetype. However, I feel like the super RNG decks have been fewer since DH, HL Hunter, and Libram Paladin came around and we could use a little excitement.
I don’t think it’s terribly skilled gameplay, but the Evolve shaman is something that can be teched against pretty proficiently by way of weapon removal, and if you focus on trading their early minions they dont have much of a board to evolve later.
Bogspine knuckles becomes a 2/2 with battlecry: Transform up to 3 random minions into ones that cost (1) more.
Shaman doesn't need the extra 2 dmg, plus transforming an entire board is becoming tired.
Hoard pillager becomes a 1/2.
This card is too strong already giving multiple classes 4 wields of their weapons. It doesn't need the attack on top of that.
lulz
"because democracy basically means government by the people, of the people, for the people, but the people are retarded. So let us say: government by the retarded, for the retarded, of the retarded." - Osho Rajneesh
There will always be something people complain about
just because your deck loses to this shaman deck doesn't mean it needs changed. maybe another deck loses to your deck all the time but I'm sure you think that is alright. am I correct?
Shaman is abit crazy atm, i teched in two kobold sticky fingers since half my games are against shaman.
We may just have to wait till March or April for rotations, evolve shaman will die with the rotations. Just tech an ooze and board clears or play aggro. I am guessing Blizz wants shaman to be viable for a short time.
Rotate it Early like Baku & Genn etc.
even before the mini-set comes out.,
I think we are getting another 40 cards next month as the mid set expansion. So a meta shift should be even earlier.
Just add 2 Kobold Stickyfinger in your deck problem solved. currently at rank 1 farming shaman and warrior lol!
Just add every tech card in the game to your deck and hey presto, you'll beat every deck ever created!
I rarely lose to Shaman with my Aggro DH. Just trade efficiently, then slam face. They usually concede because they have no board clears. But, as others have said, just tech against what you see most on ladder. No one wins all games, but if you can have a 51% or better winrate, that’s positive. good luck.
People tend to misunderstand how meta works. In fact we can compare meta to a terrorist organization. Everyone hates their leader, but even if you kill him, nothing will change. Someone new will take his place. If Blizzard kills Evolve Shaman, probably DH will be the next culprit, or maybe Paladin, who knows? Meta has always worked like that (even in the OG Vanilla times). There always are decks that are over- and underperforming and that's just natural, so we have to bear with it.
It's too early to call evolve Shaman overpowered and even if he is,l killing the deck is not the answer.
Let's not forget that before the latest expansion bogspine knuckles wasn't in anyone's mind as a dangerous card. If action needs to be taken, it should hit the supporting cast and allow the deck to be playable.
especially when the something they complain about it the same thing... random effects and extreme aggro
people didnt really complain before those features
I agree and have two comments. 1) Before the nerfs in DH, I was playing with Evolve Shaman with 80% WR. When Evolve was move to the top, my WR feel a lot since 2 Kobold Stickyfinger was added in every deck. Sometimes you don't need kill a card to beat a top deck, just to adapt with few cards and evolve decks will not be so interesting. 2) In the other side, I think that meta is really good, you can see all classes in top 100.
Whilst I think the OP's suggested changes are way too much, I don't think you can just write off how strong and consistent this deck is. I personally feel that tweaking the knuckles to 6 mana would be enough. I do find that a good amount of games I lose to evolve shaman I'm left feeling like I was just a turn away from being able to stabilise a bit and potentially still lose but at least be able to have an extra push.
I understand that high rolls aren't the way to judge a deck but I've had more than just a couple of games where I've rinsed all the board clears I have as warrior and come turn 9 there's just one refill too many and I lose anyway.
I'm never behind killing a deck and rarely support nerfs but this just feels a bit too tight and consistent. I do typically play 'off meta' decks though so I do appreciate I may be causing some of my problems but still, upping it to 6 mana doesn't appear to me that the deck dies, it just might not steam roll as often by turn 5.
Anyone who thinks Evolve Shaman is fine right now is clearly running the deck themselves. I think you’re mistaken about these nerfs though. Obviously it’s Cagematch Custodian and to a certain extent Pit Master that are putting this deck over the edge, as Evolve Shaman was not nearly as prevalent before. Allowing a player to have Knuckles in hand almost every single game by turn 4 is a huge mistake and the consistency needs to be brought down a couple notches. Custodian should cost 3 or have overload, or both, I mean just something to delay the incoming massive boards that they can create. Pit Master is also noticeably stronger than Desert Hare because the tokens’ higher stats have more survivability, but I don’t think it’s as defining as the reliable weapon draw. I think the corrupt mechanic is actually a decent way to balance it on paper, though you can hardly tell from how hard the deck steamrolls anyway.
Yeah Kobold Stickyfiner just ruins shaman, because they can’t even reload off the 4/2 pirate (I forget what it’s called). People just need to learn how to tech for the meta and stop whining about every powerful deck.
Feels like OP is getting a lot of flak for suggesting changes, though I don’t agree with the sentiment that evolve is getting “tired.” Shaman has had no place in the meta for a long time, and it’s a little refreshing to see it present again albeit with a swingy RNG archetype. However, I feel like the super RNG decks have been fewer since DH, HL Hunter, and Libram Paladin came around and we could use a little excitement.
I don’t think it’s terribly skilled gameplay, but the Evolve shaman is something that can be teched against pretty proficiently by way of weapon removal, and if you focus on trading their early minions they dont have much of a board to evolve later.