Rogues straight up shouldn't be able to grab themselves multiple copies of this already problematic card, they already have ways of swinging the game with huge tempo turns and now with hakkar and wand thief they can potentially lock you out of interacting with their board at all while they laugh and lethal you on the next turn.
So they need to play hanar and a secret in order to discover a mage secret, there are like 8 mage secrets so rogue has a 12% chance to discover counter spell. If they don't discover it they need to play that mage secret, discover another secret, play it and try again to discover counter spell and on top of that pay 3 mana to cast it. Lol, rogue is fine. If they go all in on hanar that's how they lose and I'm talking from experience.
They can also discover it from wand thief. Not a big issue in my opinion. Druids used to play zixxor more than hunters, priests steal opponents cards as much too.
So they need to play hanar and a secret in order to discover a mage secret, there are like 8 mage secrets so rogue has a 12% chance to discover counter spell. If they don't discover it they need to play that mage secret, discover another secret, play it and try again to discover counter spell and on top of that pay 3 mana to cast it. Lol, rogue is fine. If they go all in on hanar that's how they lose and I'm talking from experience.
What is this math?
They can discover a secret from any class. Your 12% suggests they can only discover Mage secrets (of which there are 6 in Standard, not 8). The likelihood to discover Counterspell is 1/20 total secrets in Standard, or 5%.
So they need to play hanar and a secret in order to discover a mage secret, there are like 8 mage secrets so rogue has a 12% chance to discover counter spell. If they don't discover it they need to play that mage secret, discover another secret, play it and try again to discover counter spell and on top of that pay 3 mana to cast it. Lol, rogue is fine. If they go all in on hanar that's how they lose and I'm talking from experience.
What is this math?
They can discover a secret from any class. Your 12% suggests they can only discover Mage secrets (of which there are 6 in Standard, not 8). The likelihood to discover Counterspell is 1/20 total secrets in Standard, or 5%.
Are you for real? It's guaranteed to discover a mage secret as long as you play one from another class and yes, there are at least 8 mage secrets in standard. What about you look it up before commenting?
"Discover" gives you a choice between three sectrets, which are all from different classes. Let's suppose you have 10 mana to spare and nothing on board. Hanar costs 2 mana and on top of that you would probably pay 2 mana for any rogue secret. With 6 mana left, you will have (like someone mentioned) 1/8 (cuz there are 8 mage secrets in standard) so around 12% to get Counterspell. Let's suppose you didn't get it and took some Paladin secret, so that you're left with 5 mana and another 12% chance. This time though you will be offered secrets from other classes than Pally, so minimum 2 mana. Then you will have 1 more draw. So in short 3 draws, each of which has 12% chance to give you a counterspell. Yeah, considering that it has to be round 10 and it's not the most reactive play, I'd say the chances are pretty low.
Obviously, there are a few other ways to discover or just get a counterspell as rogue, but honestly I've seen it so rarely, that I'd hardly call it an issue. Surely, it can happen that your opponent gets some incredibly magical spin of luck and gets a few counterspells, which could wreck you if you're playing something Control or late-midrange. However, even for rogues it's not ideal to keep a few counterspells in hand, as it's a very slow play, which gives you no board advantage and most decks these days can easily play around counterspells.
so you're saying Rogue IS a problem or IS NOT a problem. I'm confused Let me try to decipher what you mean: "Rogues shouldn't have win conditions when I play against them and it's totally unfair they can win against me". Is that about right?
I heard that some guy in peru playd againt a Rouge, and the rouge won because he cheated with cheat cards like sap and shadowstep he got with cheatings and now rouge should be nerfed
Also a player used the coin agaist me and I did not like that and now we should nerf the coin
For those who don't know, Shadowjeweler Hanar has specific, custom rules for the Secrets offered. When you play a Secret, Hanar will always offer one Secret from each of the classes with Secrets, not including the one you just played. So if you start with a Rogue Secret (as you often will), the choices offered are always 1 Paladin, 1 Hunter, 1 Mage. It can be any valid Secret from each of those classes, but it will always be 3 different classes, with 1 choice from each. This means the player will often pick the Paladin Secret first, since it's cheapest. When you play the Paladin Secret, the choices offered are always 1 Rogue, 1 Hunter, 1 Mage. And so on. If you play a Mage Secret, you won't be able to discover a new Mage Secret that round.
And for the purpose of math, Mage currently has exactly 8 Secrets available: Counterspell, Flame Ward, Ice Barrier, Mirror Entity, Netherwind Portal, Rigged Faire Game, Spellbender and Vaporize. Therefore, each time you play a non-Mage Secret, you have a 12.5% chance to get Counterspell. Hanar does not factor in any Secrets already in play -- I've had turns where I was offered a Spellbender every single time, even though I already had one active.
Contrast this with Ring Toss -- that card does check what you already have active (since it puts them into play, not into your hand), so if you get a Ring Toss from something else, you can improve your chances of being offered a Counterspell by playing any other Secrets first, since their being in play would disqualify them from Ring Toss's discovery pool.
Contrast this with Ring Toss -- that card does check what you already have active (since it puts them into play, not into your hand), so if you get a Ring Toss from something else, you can improve your chances of being offered a Counterspell by playing any other Secrets first, since their being in play would disqualify them from Ring Toss's discovery pool.
You are missing something. As a rogue, you can't discover mage secrets from ring toss so it's unlikely they can get counter spell in another way except hanar and wand thief (not including plagiarize).
Contrast this with Ring Toss -- that card does check what you already have active (since it puts them into play, not into your hand), so if you get a Ring Toss from something else, you can improve your chances of being offered a Counterspell by playing any other Secrets first, since their being in play would disqualify them from Ring Toss's discovery pool.
You are missing something. As a rogue, you can't discover mage secrets from ring toss so it's unlikely they can get counter spell in another way except hanar and wand thief (not including plagiarize).
Oh, good catch. I didn't even think about that -- for some reason, I thought Ring Toss discovered Mage Secrets specifically. But you're right -- a Rogue with Ring Toss would be offered one or two sets of Rogue Secrets.
So they need to play hanar and a secret in order to discover a mage secret, there are like 8 mage secrets so rogue has a 12% chance to discover counter spell. If they don't discover it they need to play that mage secret, discover another secret, play it and try again to discover counter spell and on top of that pay 3 mana to cast it. Lol, rogue is fine. If they go all in on hanar that's how they lose and I'm talking from experience.
What is this math?
They can discover a secret from any class. Your 12% suggests they can only discover Mage secrets (of which there are 6 in Standard, not 8). The likelihood to discover Counterspell is 1/20 total secrets in Standard, or 5%.
Are you for real? It's guaranteed to discover a mage secret as long as you play one from another class and yes, there are at least 8 mage secrets in standard. What about you look it up before commenting?
I'm afraid that's incorrect. Mage secrets are primarily offered to mages, not Rogues. Also, there are six secrets from Mage. If you look at the total number of secrets in Standard, you will find multiple classes have secrets available, including mage. Total number of classes (9) minus number of classes that can use secrets (3) gives you total number of Mage secrets, which is six.
So they need to play hanar and a secret in order to discover a mage secret, there are like 8 mage secrets so rogue has a 12% chance to discover counter spell. If they don't discover it they need to play that mage secret, discover another secret, play it and try again to discover counter spell and on top of that pay 3 mana to cast it. Lol, rogue is fine. If they go all in on hanar that's how they lose and I'm talking from experience.
What is this math?
They can discover a secret from any class. Your 12% suggests they can only discover Mage secrets (of which there are 6 in Standard, not 8). The likelihood to discover Counterspell is 1/20 total secrets in Standard, or 5%.
Are you for real? It's guaranteed to discover a mage secret as long as you play one from another class and yes, there are at least 8 mage secrets in standard. What about you look it up before commenting?
I'm afraid that's incorrect. Mage secrets are primarily offered to mages, not Rogues. Also, there are six secrets from Mage. If you look at the total number of secrets in Standard, you will find multiple classes have secrets available, including mage. Total number of classes (9) minus number of classes that can use secrets (3) gives you total number of Mage secrets, which is six.
We're talking about Secrets generated from Shadowjeweler Hanar. This allows Rogues to generate Mage Secrets. Mage has 8 Secrets currently in Standard format -- I've listed them in a comment above (along with the special rules Hanar uses to populate its discovery pool). Eight, not six.
Also, I can't follow your last sentence. There are ten total classes, not nine. Demon Hunter is the tenth class. There are four classes that have Secrets, not three. Mages, Hunters and Paladins have always had Secrets, and Rogues have gotten Secrets in some sets starting with Kobolds & Catacombs. Regardless, the number of classes with Secrets has nothing to do with how many Mage Secrets there are (which, again, is 8 in Standard, not 6).
And for the record, there are 28 Secrets currently in Standard, not 20. I'm not sure where you're getting your numbers from.
Rogues straight up shouldn't be able to grab themselves multiple copies of this already problematic card, they already have ways of swinging the game with huge tempo turns and now with hakkar and wand thief they can potentially lock you out of interacting with their board at all while they laugh and lethal you on the next turn.
Seriously, who designs this shit?
So you saying Rogue is a problem in this meta? Wtf lol
No I'm saying rogues should not be able to access counterspell as easily as they are able to.
So they need to play hanar and a secret in order to discover a mage secret, there are like 8 mage secrets so rogue has a 12% chance to discover counter spell. If they don't discover it they need to play that mage secret, discover another secret, play it and try again to discover counter spell and on top of that pay 3 mana to cast it. Lol, rogue is fine. If they go all in on hanar that's how they lose and I'm talking from experience.
The paladin secret is much better with only 1 mana.
They can also discover it from wand thief. Not a big issue in my opinion. Druids used to play zixxor more than hunters, priests steal opponents cards as much too.
if you couldn’t play around a counter spell once you were probably going to lose anyway
I think we found the Demon-Hunter crybaby that lost "Skill of Gul'dan" against Rogue :D Well deserved.
What is this math?
They can discover a secret from any class. Your 12% suggests they can only discover Mage secrets (of which there are 6 in Standard, not 8). The likelihood to discover Counterspell is 1/20 total secrets in Standard, or 5%.
Are you for real? It's guaranteed to discover a mage secret as long as you play one from another class and yes, there are at least 8 mage secrets in standard. What about you look it up before commenting?
"Discover" gives you a choice between three sectrets, which are all from different classes. Let's suppose you have 10 mana to spare and nothing on board. Hanar costs 2 mana and on top of that you would probably pay 2 mana for any rogue secret. With 6 mana left, you will have (like someone mentioned) 1/8 (cuz there are 8 mage secrets in standard) so around 12% to get Counterspell. Let's suppose you didn't get it and took some Paladin secret, so that you're left with 5 mana and another 12% chance. This time though you will be offered secrets from other classes than Pally, so minimum 2 mana. Then you will have 1 more draw. So in short 3 draws, each of which has 12% chance to give you a counterspell. Yeah, considering that it has to be round 10 and it's not the most reactive play, I'd say the chances are pretty low.
Obviously, there are a few other ways to discover or just get a counterspell as rogue, but honestly I've seen it so rarely, that I'd hardly call it an issue. Surely, it can happen that your opponent gets some incredibly magical spin of luck and gets a few counterspells, which could wreck you if you're playing something Control or late-midrange. However, even for rogues it's not ideal to keep a few counterspells in hand, as it's a very slow play, which gives you no board advantage and most decks these days can easily play around counterspells.
so you're saying Rogue IS a problem or IS NOT a problem. I'm confused
Let me try to decipher what you mean: "Rogues shouldn't have win conditions when I play against them and it's totally unfair they can win against me". Is that about right?
I heard that some guy in peru playd againt a Rouge, and the rouge won because he cheated with cheat cards like sap and shadowstep he got with cheatings and now rouge should be nerfed
Also a player used the coin agaist me and I did not like that and now we should nerf the coin
For those who don't know, Shadowjeweler Hanar has specific, custom rules for the Secrets offered. When you play a Secret, Hanar will always offer one Secret from each of the classes with Secrets, not including the one you just played. So if you start with a Rogue Secret (as you often will), the choices offered are always 1 Paladin, 1 Hunter, 1 Mage. It can be any valid Secret from each of those classes, but it will always be 3 different classes, with 1 choice from each. This means the player will often pick the Paladin Secret first, since it's cheapest. When you play the Paladin Secret, the choices offered are always 1 Rogue, 1 Hunter, 1 Mage. And so on. If you play a Mage Secret, you won't be able to discover a new Mage Secret that round.
And for the purpose of math, Mage currently has exactly 8 Secrets available: Counterspell, Flame Ward, Ice Barrier, Mirror Entity, Netherwind Portal, Rigged Faire Game, Spellbender and Vaporize. Therefore, each time you play a non-Mage Secret, you have a 12.5% chance to get Counterspell. Hanar does not factor in any Secrets already in play -- I've had turns where I was offered a Spellbender every single time, even though I already had one active.
Contrast this with Ring Toss -- that card does check what you already have active (since it puts them into play, not into your hand), so if you get a Ring Toss from something else, you can improve your chances of being offered a Counterspell by playing any other Secrets first, since their being in play would disqualify them from Ring Toss's discovery pool.
You are missing something. As a rogue, you can't discover mage secrets from ring toss so it's unlikely they can get counter spell in another way except hanar and wand thief (not including plagiarize).
Oh, good catch. I didn't even think about that -- for some reason, I thought Ring Toss discovered Mage Secrets specifically. But you're right -- a Rogue with Ring Toss would be offered one or two sets of Rogue Secrets.
I'm afraid that's incorrect. Mage secrets are primarily offered to mages, not Rogues. Also, there are six secrets from Mage. If you look at the total number of secrets in Standard, you will find multiple classes have secrets available, including mage. Total number of classes (9) minus number of classes that can use secrets (3) gives you total number of Mage secrets, which is six.
We're talking about Secrets generated from Shadowjeweler Hanar. This allows Rogues to generate Mage Secrets. Mage has 8 Secrets currently in Standard format -- I've listed them in a comment above (along with the special rules Hanar uses to populate its discovery pool). Eight, not six.
Also, I can't follow your last sentence. There are ten total classes, not nine. Demon Hunter is the tenth class. There are four classes that have Secrets, not three. Mages, Hunters and Paladins have always had Secrets, and Rogues have gotten Secrets in some sets starting with Kobolds & Catacombs. Regardless, the number of classes with Secrets has nothing to do with how many Mage Secrets there are (which, again, is 8 in Standard, not 6).
And for the record, there are 28 Secrets currently in Standard, not 20. I'm not sure where you're getting your numbers from.