I understand that every game needs to have a strategy for earning money. And capitalism in itself has issues, and people need to earn their livings, but putting that aside: does it have to be built on the concept of "addiction"?
Recently, reports has come, at least in Sweden, that game addiction online has become a greater problem during the recent year. Mostly and generelly these reports are concerning poker and casino-games online. The issue has been adressed to the very companies that build their business on an addiction model. Some has responded in swedish media that "they will look into it". Yeah.. Anyhow. As a result of the pandemic, and an increasing number of desperate people, these "addiction" models are put into the spot light, as a growing societal problem. Of concern.
During this pandemic HS releases a new achievement model, and more opportunities have been added for buying skins, coins, different bundles etc. etc. More opportunities for anyone to spend money on this game. That has become more of luxury game, not quite so affordable anymore.
The new achievement model is based on the very same "addiction" model that poker games uses. Although adapted to the context of HS. I.e. constantly pinging in the left bottom corner; small reminders of the many, utterly pointless, goals. Most of them hardly give any XP, and those that do, very little. And, you will need the epic and legendary cards of the newest expansion to get those achievements.
From an ethical perspective, and from the perspective of many people's wallet, it is of great concern to launch a business model based on addiction. I mean, "sustainability" is actually a business concept that is becoming a way for companies to earn money by. Why going backwards? Sad?
Best antidote to my HS addiction: netdecks :) As a Wild player, how many Big Priests, Raza Priests, Secret Mages, Odd Pally's, Aggro Druid and King's Bane Rogues can I face in a day before needing to put it down? Got NOTHING against any of those decks. It's just the repetitiveness that kills my desire to play (i.e. breaks my addiction).
Sex Toys should be less pleasurable and appealing to sex addicts. Alcohol should taste terrible to be less appealing to alcoholics, Forget about vaping, that should just be outlawed...
Why are companies responsible for the ethical behavior of their clientele? When do people become responsible for their own actions?
This is the precursor to government oversight that deems its populace to inept to make their own decisions, and concludes they should be making decisions for everyone.
Should knife companies put plastic edges on all knives, because someone could stab someone else?
No more dangerous chemical cleaning agents, someone could swallow it!
People are responsible for themselves, and that's all there is to it. If a game is too "addictive" and you can't stop spending money on it, then that's a good sign you need help, and if it weren't this game, your behaviors would manifest somewhere else in life, with potentially worse consequences.
Edit: To add a bit of insight or authority to my views. I played online poker for years to supplement my $300/day heroin habit.
I feel like there are far more concerning issues in the world than businesses preying on people's inability to control themselves.
I think I do have a bit of card game addiction. It started when I first collected Pokemon cards. Then I battled with them. And every game I wanted to play one more. One more game. One more.
Maybe it's human nature to act like this to some degree? Does building a business model based off of human nature make a company bad?
I think we need our resident psychology experts to weigh in on this.
I think it's fine though. We do what we must, because we can.
Sex Toys should be less pleasurable and appealing to sex addicts. Alcohol should taste terrible to be less appealing to alcoholics, Forget about vaping, that should just be outlawed...
Why are companies responsible for the ethical behavior of their clientele? When do people become responsible for their own actions?
This is the precursor to government oversight that deems its populace to inept to make their own decisions, and concludes they should be making decisions for everyone.
Should knife companies put plastic edges on all knives, because someone could stab someone else?
No more dangerous chemical cleaning agents, someone could swallow it!
People are responsible for themselves, and that's all there is to it. If a game is too "addictive" and you can't stop spending money on it, then that's a good sign you need help, and if it weren't this game, your behaviors would manifest somewhere else in life, with potentially worse consequences.
Edit: To add a bit of insight or authority to my views. I played online poker for years to supplement my $300/day heroin habit.
I agree with this and this babying that people have gotten used to has lead to an absolute shit show of a pandemic. People don't know how to take responsibility for themselves at all. Don't punish those without the addiction, support those who do or at least have the support available. You can't just ban and outlaw everything because as people we're so different that almost every hobby or past time could be banned.
I'd add that you could say the exact same thing about Xbox achievements or PlayStation trophies. Xbox achievements even link into a reward system that generates points which you can spend on actual things, like vouchers etc. This isn't simply a hearthstone or poker thing, it's just an extremely common reward measurement that's employed on multiple platforms and across many different types of content.
I'm the same. I've always been into card games (pokemon, spades, poker hearthstone) and it hasn't been a bad addiction until hearthstone. I've had to set limits on my phone to make sure I don't play. When it's impacting life, then it's time to slow it down or stop completely.
(...) During this pandemic HS releases a new achievement model, and more opportunities have been added for buying skins, coins, different bundles etc. etc. More opportunities for anyone to spend money on this game. That has become more of luxury game, not quite so affordable anymore. (...)
Nymug, I agree that preying on an addiction is despicable. Plain evil.
"(HS) that has become more of a luxury game, not quite so affordable anymore." No, I don't agree at all.
Ours is totally Not an expensive game!
Everybody can play it, 100% for free! Download the game, make a deck (full of basics :P ) and... dive right in! After a month or so, a beginning player has a couple of good cards, maybe even a crafted legendary - not that a leggy is necessary, for example in aggro dh, deeply beloved by all of us ..
I know, HS has a lot more to offer than 1 (agro dh) deck. Well, a f2p player can slowly accumulate the cards for a great deck that he or she has seen. Haven't we all gone through this same process? I remember I loved it in 2014, just starting out, barely having any good cards, deciding on what card was the best craft!
It doesn't help when you are playing a strong meta deck trying to get legend, and you have to play 10 extra games because the game is rigging the outcome in your opponent's favor (look up Kris O Five's video). The game is tricking your brain into craving that next reward and making you play until you achieve it, having no clue how long it's going to take. Sometimes you have to play for hours and hours to get legend, and the reward you get is ONE PACK more than diamond 5, which is trivial to achieve.
So, as a heroin addict, it always amuses me when the term addiction rolls into these discussions.
Inevitably, the analogy is made to gambling addiction, since Hearthstone is modeled after a physical card game, and we often think of poker or blackjack as the avatars of gambling as a pass time. It's important to remember the difference between gambling addiction or any other lifestyle addiction and physical addiction to a chemical substance like a narcotic. While BOTH types of addiction cause the classic dopamine hits in the brains of their sufferers, the "soft addictions" or "psychological addictions" to lifestyles almost exclusively are limited to psychological side effects such as anxiety and stress effects.
Meanwhile, the physical addictions carry an extra set of side effects that go beyond the lack of enjoyment experienced and/or expected by a pattern of lifestyle behavior. Those of us who try to break physical addictions are served up a list of horrible physical symptoms that, with surprising regularity, can be life threatening.
I don't draw this distinction to turn around and say, "therefore soft addictions aren't real addictions". That's not my point. However, it is INCREDIBLY difficult for psychologists to manage to attach any meaningful criteria that differentiates an "addict" to a game like Hearthstone from a person who simply enjoys the game a lot. Both groups of people experience dopamine increases when playing the game. Both groups of people are targeted by the methods the OP speaks of, as well as basically any advertising or other effort to encourage people to play the game. Some experts have hung their hat on the negative psychological symptoms to identify an addict, but how negative does the symptom have to be? If you forget to do a week's worth of weekly quests and you commit suicide as a result, most of us would probably call that an addiction. But of course, it's rarely if ever that extreme an example.
As a person who has experienced the ups and downs of hard addiction, I am somewhat amused by the OP's question: "does the business model HAVE TO BE based on addiction?" I think, once you appreciate the fine line between addict and enthusiast, the answer is actually "yes".
I don't see how it's possible to run a marketing program that doesn't leave oneself open to accusations of "exploiting" addictive behavior, while at the same time being a successful advertising effort.
Just a thought from a person who has lived it.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Helpful Clarification on Forbidden Topics for Hearthstone Forums:
Enjoying Americans winning in the Olympics is forbidden because it is political. A 14 plus page discussion of state-sponsored lawsuits against a multi-national corporation based on harassment, discrimination, and wrongful death allegations is apparently not political enough to raise an issue.
I don't think that Hearthstone is exactly in this case, but nearby. Hearthstone is not inside the perfect definition of pay-to-win like many mobile games based only on purchases.
But yes, probably the new achievement model is not random and they are trying to earn more bucks.
And yes, these stuffs need for sure to be regulated.
In my opinion, the biggest injustice in in-game purchases is the refund. I don't know in your countries, but here in Italy refund is not allowed and I think that this is crazy. I mean, if I purchase a pair of pants in a shop, I have 14 days to ask for refund, even if I don't like them anymore. For in-game purchase no. Why? This thing make me crazy about in-game purchase. This is a thing that can be used by companies for scam. Here and example:
Hearthstone, new expansion, new cool overpowered cards, many pre-orders. 2 weeks after the expansion release, many nerfs that they kill most of the cards, therefore, they destroy the reason of your purchase. Wouldn't you like your money back? I would! Well, you cannot.
This is scam for me.
So, in this absurd situation what could be the trick? Presenting broken cards during the presentations, (because everyone loves to put money in broken cards, it is an investment, they will be used for a long time) increase your pre-order chances, nerf everything after, when people start to complain.
Sex Toys should be less pleasurable and appealing to sex addicts. Alcohol should taste terrible to be less appealing to alcoholics, Forget about vaping, that should just be outlawed...
Why are companies responsible for the ethical behavior of their clientele? When do people become responsible for their own actions?
This is the precursor to government oversight that deems its populace to inept to make their own decisions, and concludes they should be making decisions for everyone.
Should knife companies put plastic edges on all knives, because someone could stab someone else?
No more dangerous chemical cleaning agents, someone could swallow it!
People are responsible for themselves, and that's all there is to it. If a game is too "addictive" and you can't stop spending money on it, then that's a good sign you need help, and if it weren't this game, your behaviors would manifest somewhere else in life, with potentially worse consequences.
Edit: To add a bit of insight or authority to my views. I played online poker for years to supplement my $300/day heroin habit.
Not to mention where does OP get off shamelessly accusing Blizzard of intentionally building their game around addiction. I wonder where he is getting his info? Probably from deep up inside his ass if I had to guess.
Not to mention where does OP get off shamelessly accusing Blizzard of intentionally building their game around addiction. I wonder where he is getting his info? Probably from deep up inside his ass if I had to guess.
Aim Sparrow, isn't it obvious that blizz builds HS around addiction though?
Releasing a daily quest to have you return every (3) day(s) to build up a routine on your end, in fear of missing out? Installing the Rewards Track that informs you in detail how far you are from reaching that next pack/ leggy/ 200 gold?
Why would blizz show you (as OP mentioned, "constantly pinging in the left bottom corner") "Friend X has opened a Golden Edwin Van Cleef!" if it were not to urge You to go buy and open packs, for which you'd need more play-time, or pay up.
Oh wait, it is so that you can congratulate your in-game friend! :D
I understand that every game needs to have a strategy for earning money. And capitalism in itself has issues, and people need to earn their livings, but putting that aside: does it have to be built on the concept of "addiction"?
Recently, reports has come, at least in Sweden, that game addiction online has become a greater problem during the recent year. Mostly and generelly these reports are concerning poker and casino-games online. The issue has been adressed to the very companies that build their business on an addiction model. Some has responded in swedish media that "they will look into it". Yeah.. Anyhow. As a result of the pandemic, and an increasing number of desperate people, these "addiction" models are put into the spot light, as a growing societal problem. Of concern.
During this pandemic HS releases a new achievement model, and more opportunities have been added for buying skins, coins, different bundles etc. etc. More opportunities for anyone to spend money on this game. That has become more of luxury game, not quite so affordable anymore.
The new achievement model is based on the very same "addiction" model that poker games uses. Although adapted to the context of HS. I.e. constantly pinging in the left bottom corner; small reminders of the many, utterly pointless, goals. Most of them hardly give any XP, and those that do, very little. And, you will need the epic and legendary cards of the newest expansion to get those achievements.
From an ethical perspective, and from the perspective of many people's wallet, it is of great concern to launch a business model based on addiction. I mean, "sustainability" is actually a business concept that is becoming a way for companies to earn money by. Why going backwards? Sad?
Best antidote to my HS addiction: netdecks :) As a Wild player, how many Big Priests, Raza Priests, Secret Mages, Odd Pally's, Aggro Druid and King's Bane Rogues can I face in a day before needing to put it down? Got NOTHING against any of those decks. It's just the repetitiveness that kills my desire to play (i.e. breaks my addiction).
Sex Toys should be less pleasurable and appealing to sex addicts. Alcohol should taste terrible to be less appealing to alcoholics, Forget about vaping, that should just be outlawed...
Why are companies responsible for the ethical behavior of their clientele? When do people become responsible for their own actions?
This is the precursor to government oversight that deems its populace to inept to make their own decisions, and concludes they should be making decisions for everyone.
Should knife companies put plastic edges on all knives, because someone could stab someone else?
No more dangerous chemical cleaning agents, someone could swallow it!
People are responsible for themselves, and that's all there is to it. If a game is too "addictive" and you can't stop spending money on it, then that's a good sign you need help, and if it weren't this game, your behaviors would manifest somewhere else in life, with potentially worse consequences.
Edit: To add a bit of insight or authority to my views. I played online poker for years to supplement my $300/day heroin habit.
I feel like there are far more concerning issues in the world than businesses preying on people's inability to control themselves.
I think I do have a bit of card game addiction. It started when I first collected Pokemon cards. Then I battled with them. And every game I wanted to play one more. One more game. One more.
Maybe it's human nature to act like this to some degree? Does building a business model based off of human nature make a company bad?
I think we need our resident psychology experts to weigh in on this.
I think it's fine though. We do what we must, because we can.
I agree with this and this babying that people have gotten used to has lead to an absolute shit show of a pandemic. People don't know how to take responsibility for themselves at all. Don't punish those without the addiction, support those who do or at least have the support available. You can't just ban and outlaw everything because as people we're so different that almost every hobby or past time could be banned.
I'd add that you could say the exact same thing about Xbox achievements or PlayStation trophies. Xbox achievements even link into a reward system that generates points which you can spend on actual things, like vouchers etc. This isn't simply a hearthstone or poker thing, it's just an extremely common reward measurement that's employed on multiple platforms and across many different types of content.
wow you figured out the deep conspiracy of the freemium model, got a real Perry Mason over here
Nobody on here will know who Perry Mason is!
Wait, I know who Perry Mason is.
>_>
<_<
I'm the same. I've always been into card games (pokemon, spades, poker hearthstone) and it hasn't been a bad addiction until hearthstone. I've had to set limits on my phone to make sure I don't play. When it's impacting life, then it's time to slow it down or stop completely.
Nymug, I agree that preying on an addiction is despicable. Plain evil.
"(HS) that has become more of a luxury game, not quite so affordable anymore." No, I don't agree at all.
Ours is totally Not an expensive game!
Everybody can play it, 100% for free! Download the game, make a deck (full of basics :P ) and... dive right in! After a month or so, a beginning player has a couple of good cards, maybe even a crafted legendary - not that a leggy is necessary, for example in aggro dh, deeply beloved by all of us ..
I know, HS has a lot more to offer than 1 (agro dh) deck. Well, a f2p player can slowly accumulate the cards for a great deck that he or she has seen. Haven't we all gone through this same process? I remember I loved it in 2014, just starting out, barely having any good cards, deciding on what card was the best craft!
It doesn't help when you are playing a strong meta deck trying to get legend, and you have to play 10 extra games because the game is rigging the outcome in your opponent's favor (look up Kris O Five's video). The game is tricking your brain into craving that next reward and making you play until you achieve it, having no clue how long it's going to take. Sometimes you have to play for hours and hours to get legend, and the reward you get is ONE PACK more than diamond 5, which is trivial to achieve.
Tickatus isn't fun or interactive
That may have been true a year ago, but since they revived Perry Mason in a new 2020 TV series, even your average Hearthpwn scrub knows ;)
Reply to Josse:
Ha, yeah, I get your irony. Thanks.
Liked "After a month or so, [...] has a couple of good cards, maybe even a crafted legendary. "
Really points out the "addiction" in the "addiction model".
Thanks.
(As a side note to the post: Also, truly, I do enjoy the game, so far, good gameplay design. A bit concerned where they are headed though.)
Ha!!! Perry Mason! Love it!
We’ve got a regular Buddy Hackett over here!
Just one more thing ...
I got nothing, I just wanted a Columbo reference in here
So, as a heroin addict, it always amuses me when the term addiction rolls into these discussions.
Inevitably, the analogy is made to gambling addiction, since Hearthstone is modeled after a physical card game, and we often think of poker or blackjack as the avatars of gambling as a pass time. It's important to remember the difference between gambling addiction or any other lifestyle addiction and physical addiction to a chemical substance like a narcotic. While BOTH types of addiction cause the classic dopamine hits in the brains of their sufferers, the "soft addictions" or "psychological addictions" to lifestyles almost exclusively are limited to psychological side effects such as anxiety and stress effects.
Meanwhile, the physical addictions carry an extra set of side effects that go beyond the lack of enjoyment experienced and/or expected by a pattern of lifestyle behavior. Those of us who try to break physical addictions are served up a list of horrible physical symptoms that, with surprising regularity, can be life threatening.
I don't draw this distinction to turn around and say, "therefore soft addictions aren't real addictions". That's not my point. However, it is INCREDIBLY difficult for psychologists to manage to attach any meaningful criteria that differentiates an "addict" to a game like Hearthstone from a person who simply enjoys the game a lot. Both groups of people experience dopamine increases when playing the game. Both groups of people are targeted by the methods the OP speaks of, as well as basically any advertising or other effort to encourage people to play the game. Some experts have hung their hat on the negative psychological symptoms to identify an addict, but how negative does the symptom have to be? If you forget to do a week's worth of weekly quests and you commit suicide as a result, most of us would probably call that an addiction. But of course, it's rarely if ever that extreme an example.
As a person who has experienced the ups and downs of hard addiction, I am somewhat amused by the OP's question: "does the business model HAVE TO BE based on addiction?" I think, once you appreciate the fine line between addict and enthusiast, the answer is actually "yes".
I don't see how it's possible to run a marketing program that doesn't leave oneself open to accusations of "exploiting" addictive behavior, while at the same time being a successful advertising effort.
Just a thought from a person who has lived it.
Helpful Clarification on Forbidden Topics for Hearthstone Forums:
Enjoying Americans winning in the Olympics is forbidden because it is political. A 14 plus page discussion of state-sponsored lawsuits against a multi-national corporation based on harassment, discrimination, and wrongful death allegations is apparently not political enough to raise an issue.
Cool Thread!
I don't think that Hearthstone is exactly in this case, but nearby. Hearthstone is not inside the perfect definition of pay-to-win like many mobile games based only on purchases.
But yes, probably the new achievement model is not random and they are trying to earn more bucks.
And yes, these stuffs need for sure to be regulated.
In my opinion, the biggest injustice in in-game purchases is the refund. I don't know in your countries, but here in Italy refund is not allowed and I think that this is crazy. I mean, if I purchase a pair of pants in a shop, I have 14 days to ask for refund, even if I don't like them anymore. For in-game purchase no. Why? This thing make me crazy about in-game purchase. This is a thing that can be used by companies for scam. Here and example:
Hearthstone, new expansion, new cool overpowered cards, many pre-orders. 2 weeks after the expansion release, many nerfs that they kill most of the cards, therefore, they destroy the reason of your purchase. Wouldn't you like your money back? I would! Well, you cannot.
This is scam for me.
So, in this absurd situation what could be the trick? Presenting broken cards during the presentations, (because everyone loves to put money in broken cards, it is an investment, they will be used for a long time) increase your pre-order chances, nerf everything after, when people start to complain.
Not to mention where does OP get off shamelessly accusing Blizzard of intentionally building their game around addiction. I wonder where he is getting his info? Probably from deep up inside his ass if I had to guess.
Aim Sparrow, isn't it obvious that blizz builds HS around addiction though?
Releasing a daily quest to have you return every (3) day(s) to build up a routine on your end, in fear of missing out? Installing the Rewards Track that informs you in detail how far you are from reaching that next pack/ leggy/ 200 gold?
Why would blizz show you (as OP mentioned, "constantly pinging in the left bottom corner") "Friend X has opened a Golden Edwin Van Cleef!" if it were not to urge You to go buy and open packs, for which you'd need more play-time, or pay up.
Oh wait, it is so that you can congratulate your in-game friend! :D
lol buying skins are addiction? most boring thing to spend money on.. skins and cardbacks