what I will attempt to do in this thread is explain why I think "forced synergies" which I define as cards like Cloud Prince and Counterspell, cards who have a symbiotic bound written in text fx (if you control a secret) is not only unjust powercreep but also bad play expirence.
I am an old school guy, I played from the day the game launched, took a break and came back a while back and it is a very different game. (I realize ill sound very old but here goes) back in the days a secret would not just be played because it was a secret and was a part of the "package of forced synergies" freeze mage would run iceblock and ice barrier for survival and tempo mage would run mirror entity and counterspell for tempo.
there was little to no incentive to just JAM all the secrets and cards with a symbiotic relationship to secrets into a deck and call it a day as we see today, when I face a secret mage and they play a secret I have little to no idea what sort of secret they could have played, they just stuff all the secrets that don't suck "dunkyass" into the deck and it makes it a clusterfuck to play agents and if that was not enough, they can even generate additional secrets which makes it such that even if you have popped counterspell 2 times, they can still have a 3th 4th and so on.
I dislike this very much and the playstyle is only possible because it is enabled by lazy blizzard card designers with the game philosophy that says - derp herp erm, it has a requirement so it can be powercreeped"
this could be fine if there was a limited pool of required cards to enable these power creeped cards but for secrets fx there are 16 not counting Ting Toss secrets and 17 cards with symbiotic relationship to secrets and that is just in standard, it is forced, uninventive and very disrupting to play versus.
what I think should be done by this is limiting the amount of playable secrets so you have a chance to guess which one it could be based on playstyle or knowledge of meta decks and also I would like to see a nerf to Counterspell, it punishes big spells too much compared to smaller spells, make it so it that it stops the spell and consumes the card but not the mana to cast it so fx if you bloodlust you lose to bloodlust but you dont loose the 5 mana.
Secret Mage runs very specific secrets that have good effects and not any random secrets just for the synergies (nobody plays Mirror Image, Effigy or Spellbender for example). The reason Secret Mage is not viable in standard is exactly because secrets in standard suck
They do limit the amount of playable secrets. It's limited by cycling old sets to Wild.
There are currently 8 secrets in Standard.
No one plays Vaporize, Mirror, Spellbender, or unless it's Freeze IB right now, so you can eliminate four off the bat.
If you have an empty board, the secret they drop is probably not Flame Ward. If you have multiple minions on board, the secret is probably not Faire Game.
Everyone who actually plays the game knows you have to test for secrets. If your opponent has a Counterspell and you don't use, say, a Lightning Bolt or something before burning Lust, that is 100% your fault.
This is literally just a thread about a bad player not knowing how to play the game.
They do limit the amount of playable secrets. It's limited by cycling old sets to Wild.
There are currently 8 secrets in Standard.
No one plays Vaporize, Mirror, Spellbender, or unless it's Freeze IB right now, so you can eliminate four off the bat.
If you have an empty board, the secret they drop is probably not Flame Ward. If you have multiple minions on board, the secret is probably not Faire Game.
Everyone who actually plays the game knows you have to test for secrets. If your opponent has a Counterspell and you don't use, say, a Lightning Bolt or something before burning Lust, that is 100% your fault.
This is literally just a thread about a bad player not knowing how to play the game.
currently I am top 2k legend and iv been legend in every season iv played even been up top 10 legend ranks, chances are I am a great deal better a player than you.
do you know what 8x2 is? maybe you are an exclusive singleton player and in that case my apologies
just JAM all the secrets and cards with a symbiotic relationship to secrets into a deck and call it a day as we see today, when I face a secret mage and they play a secret I have little to no idea what sort of secret they could have played
I think you were looking for the salt thread because you played your Bloodlust into a Couterspell.
Are you complaining about forced design in general or just secret mage? Every deck in the game has been "forced" for a long time already, as every card has to contribute to your win condition. Highlander decks have some more freedom, but even those are "forced" by the highlander rule.
Don't worry about secret mage. You probably haven't played Wild in a while to counter the play style, and you will get used to both that and the new secrets soon. There are even solid tech cards out there if Secrets become to rampant, which has happened several times in the past.
IMO, secrets make for some interesting mind games. Some tips: a half decent mage player will never play the secrets they want to catch you with first, so generally don't even bother playing around them. I usually drop "ice block" first, just to mess with their mind, it works for a while. At higher levels, you might get into a "I know you know I know" territory.
Also, better players will drop "wrong" secrets very quickly to make it appear like an obvious choice when it is really a bluff. Random secrets are also cool imo, it felt very good to successfuly play around a random "eye for an eye" to win vs a paladin.
just JAM all the secrets and cards with a symbiotic relationship to secrets into a deck and call it a day as we see today, when I face a secret mage and they play a secret I have little to no idea what sort of secret they could have played
I think you were looking for the salt thread because you played your Bloodlust into a Couterspell.
it was an example that was suppose to be easy to understand, not something that happened, forgive me, i am struggling with explaining without being condescending.
This has a lot more to do with the overall crummy design of the old secrets, and a lot less to do with "forced synergies". Most of the new secret cards are good outside of their secret synergy. Mage isn't very good right now, so people aren't experimenting with it much, but Sayge and Rigged Faire game and a few of the other secrets are good in almost any mage deck, not just secret mage.
Rogue secrets as of Scholomance I think are kind of the model for what secret packages in Paladin, Rogue and Mage should look like. There's only a few of them, and there're like... 4 situations where there's a payoff. If you trade, you're potentially trading into something bigger, if the rogue has a secret and you make a big tempo turn, you potentially give them all of those resources, if you play a spell, you give them resources, if you play a minion, you give them something that can trade into that minion.
Also the "punishment" for messing up is not as debilitating as mirror entity or counterspell or freezing trap are. It's just better designed both for the person playing the secrets, and the person playing against them.
just JAM all the secrets and cards with a symbiotic relationship to secrets into a deck and call it a day as we see today, when I face a secret mage and they play a secret I have little to no idea what sort of secret they could have played
I think you were looking for the salt thread because you played your Bloodlust into a Couterspell.
it was an example that was suppose to be easy to understand, not something that happened, forgive me, i am struggling with explaining without being condescending.
Are you complaining about forced design in general or just secret mage? Every deck in the game has been "forced" for a long time already, as every card has to contribute to your win condition. Highlander decks have some more freedom, but even those are "forced" by the highlander rule.
Don't worry about secret mage. You probably haven't played Wild in a while to counter the play style, and you will get used to both that and the new secrets soon. There are even solid tech cards out there if Secrets become to rampant, which has happened several times in the past.
IMO, secrets make for some interesting mind games. Some tips: a half decent mage player will never play the secrets they want to catch you with first, so generally don't even bother playing around them. I usually drop "ice block" first, just to mess with their mind, it works for a while. At higher levels, you might get into a "I know you know I know" territory.
Also, better players will drop "wrong" secrets very quickly to make it appear like an obvious choice when it is really a bluff. Random secrets are also cool imo, it felt very good to successfuly play around a random "eye for an eye" to win vs a paladin.
I am talking about forced design and only using secret mage as an example because 25 cards out of 30 is an extreme example, another set of forced design could be the demon hunter and warlock soul fragment package, it is also a large package 11 cards with the soul fragment tag.
it is not so much the secrets themselves it is more all their symbiotic support cards that uses the excuse (if you got a secret in play be a powercreep card) or demon hunter (if you got a soul fragment in deck be a powercreep card) we also got a libram package and in druid a guardian animal package, forced synergy around a keyword like beast, secret, libram, soul fragment, I could even say overload... but it has downsides which the other keywords dont.
the issue is not the packages it is how large and good they are compared to other cards
I am talking about forced design and only using secret mage as an example because 25 cards out of 30 is an extreme example, another set of forced design could be the demon hunter and warlock soul fragment package, it is also a large package 11 cards with the soul fragment tag.
This... isn't a problem. Not every deck even wants every soul fragment card. Demon Warlock decks maybe run some of the soul fragment generators but don't run the 3 mana damage-dealing card because it's not a demon. (In fact I think this is common in current Tickatus builds)
I made a control demon hunter deck where I didn't want lapidary, just the healing/tempo from the fragment generators and the 3 damage AoE.
Also none of these synergies are broken. You can run decks without any synergy.
I am talking about forced design and only using secret mage as an example because 25 cards out of 30 is an extreme example, another set of forced design could be the demon hunter and warlock soul fragment package, it is also a large package 11 cards with the soul fragment tag.
This... isn't a problem. Not every deck even wants every soul fragment card. Demon Warlock decks maybe run some of the soul fragment generators but don't run the 3 mana damage-dealing card because it's not a demon. (In fact I think this is common in current Tickatus builds)
I made a control demon hunter deck where I didn't want lapidary, just the healing/tempo from the fragment generators and the 3 damage AoE.
Also none of these synergies are broken. You can run decks without any synergy.
Fundamentally I just don't see the issue myself.
maybe that is the difference between whatever rank you are and a top legend player who makes his own decks.
also Iv not stated obviously I am talking about viable competitive decks in the top theirs that I want to see preform with an average of at least above 51%...
this whole subject is maybe just to complex for a forum talk and ill not respond further because it has been rather disappointing
Sorry Mr 'Top Legend' player, it seems we are not good enough players to understand/agree with your point of view. By the way, isn't 2k legend in wild kind of 'dumpster legend' ?
Creating synergies is something that is viable - it's done in every CCG and ECCG I have ever seen.
That being said, My question for the OP, the idea of "forced synergy" does this mean you feel that Hearthstone, in it's current state, makes it difficult for players to create viable decks without using specific cards due to the synergies between them?
Personally the observation I have with "Forced synergy" is that only certain classes seem to suffer from that, however, that aspect is also what makes them top ranking. Odd-paladin, Kaza-priest, JadeDruid, (insert any deck named after a themed synergy).
Using secrets as your base does keep it simple, but that is a problem, synergies are necessary but how do you determine when it's a "powercreep" mechanic vs and actual good idea. Secret Mage, Secret Hunter, Secret Paladin, all classes using similar synergies does that mean all 3 should be nerfed on the synergy level?
What of dead synergies like Freeze Shaman, it's a dead idea, should it be fixed or removed completely?
I guess with all of these questions, I should pose this in a single question: How would you fix it?
Creating synergies is something that is viable - it's done in every CCG and ECCG I have ever seen.
That being said, My question for the OP, the idea of "forced synergy" does this mean you feel that Hearthstone, in it's current state, makes it difficult for players to create viable decks without using specific cards due to the synergies between them?
Personally the observation I have with "Forced synergy" is that only certain classes seem to suffer from that, however, that aspect is also what makes them top ranking. Odd-paladin, Kaza-priest, JadeDruid, (insert any deck named after a themed synergy).
Using secrets as your base does keep it simple, but that is a problem, synergies are necessary but how do you determine when it's a "powercreep" mechanic vs and actual good idea. Secret Mage, Secret Hunter, Secret Paladin, all classes using similar synergies does that mean all 3 should be nerfed on the synergy level?
What of dead synergies like Freeze Shaman, it's a dead idea, should it be fixed or removed completely?
I guess with all of these questions, I should pose this in a single question: How would you fix it?
I would need to spend a large amount of time analyzing in order to answer that question and frankly I am not that much invested that ill do that for free, so till the day that never comes that I get paid to fix the game ill just complain about the stuff I don't like and let other people sweat over how to fix it
Creating synergies is something that is viable - it's done in every CCG and ECCG I have ever seen.
That being said, My question for the OP, the idea of "forced synergy" does this mean you feel that Hearthstone, in it's current state, makes it difficult for players to create viable decks without using specific cards due to the synergies between them?
Personally the observation I have with "Forced synergy" is that only certain classes seem to suffer from that, however, that aspect is also what makes them top ranking. Odd-paladin, Kaza-priest, JadeDruid, (insert any deck named after a themed synergy).
Using secrets as your base does keep it simple, but that is a problem, synergies are necessary but how do you determine when it's a "powercreep" mechanic vs and actual good idea. Secret Mage, Secret Hunter, Secret Paladin, all classes using similar synergies does that mean all 3 should be nerfed on the synergy level?
What of dead synergies like Freeze Shaman, it's a dead idea, should it be fixed or removed completely?
I guess with all of these questions, I should pose this in a single question: How would you fix it?
I would need to spend a large amount of time analyzing in order to answer that question and frankly I am not that much invested that ill do that for free, so till the day that never comes that I get paid to fix the game ill just complain about the stuff I don't like and let other people sweat over how to fix it
Love the candidness XD Keep carrying on !
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Cute, ineffective, but cute.
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what I will attempt to do in this thread is explain why I think "forced synergies" which I define as cards like Cloud Prince and Counterspell, cards who have a symbiotic bound written in text fx (if you control a secret) is not only unjust powercreep but also bad play expirence.
I am an old school guy, I played from the day the game launched, took a break and came back a while back and it is a very different game.
(I realize ill sound very old but here goes) back in the days a secret would not just be played because it was a secret and was a part of the "package of forced synergies" freeze mage would run iceblock and ice barrier for survival and tempo mage would run mirror entity and counterspell for tempo.
there was little to no incentive to just JAM all the secrets and cards with a symbiotic relationship to secrets into a deck and call it a day as we see today, when I face a secret mage and they play a secret I have little to no idea what sort of secret they could have played, they just stuff all the secrets that don't suck "dunkyass" into the deck and it makes it a clusterfuck to play agents and if that was not enough, they can even generate additional secrets which makes it such that even if you have popped counterspell 2 times, they can still have a 3th 4th and so on.
I dislike this very much and the playstyle is only possible because it is enabled by lazy blizzard card designers with the game philosophy that says - derp herp erm, it has a requirement so it can be powercreeped"
this could be fine if there was a limited pool of required cards to enable these power creeped cards but for secrets fx there are 16 not counting Ting Toss secrets and 17 cards with symbiotic relationship to secrets and that is just in standard, it is forced, uninventive and very disrupting to play versus.
what I think should be done by this is limiting the amount of playable secrets so you have a chance to guess which one it could be based on playstyle or knowledge of meta decks and also I would like to see a nerf to Counterspell, it punishes big spells too much compared to smaller spells, make it so it that it stops the spell and consumes the card but not the mana to cast it so fx if you bloodlust you lose to bloodlust but you dont loose the 5 mana.
tldr: secrets are not fun to play versus
Secret Mage runs very specific secrets that have good effects and not any random secrets just for the synergies (nobody plays Mirror Image, Effigy or Spellbender for example). The reason Secret Mage is not viable in standard is exactly because secrets in standard suck
currently I am top 2k legend and iv been legend in every season iv played even been up top 10 legend ranks, chances are I am a great deal better a player than you.
do you know what 8x2 is?
maybe you are an exclusive singleton player and in that case my apologies
So you are a top 2k legend player but yet you spout such idiotic stuff like:
I think you were looking for the salt thread because you played your Bloodlust into a Couterspell.
Are you complaining about forced design in general or just secret mage? Every deck in the game has been "forced" for a long time already, as every card has to contribute to your win condition. Highlander decks have some more freedom, but even those are "forced" by the highlander rule.
Don't worry about secret mage. You probably haven't played Wild in a while to counter the play style, and you will get used to both that and the new secrets soon. There are even solid tech cards out there if Secrets become to rampant, which has happened several times in the past.
IMO, secrets make for some interesting mind games. Some tips: a half decent mage player will never play the secrets they want to catch you with first, so generally don't even bother playing around them. I usually drop "ice block" first, just to mess with their mind, it works for a while. At higher levels, you might get into a "I know you know I know" territory.
Also, better players will drop "wrong" secrets very quickly to make it appear like an obvious choice when it is really a bluff. Random secrets are also cool imo, it felt very good to successfuly play around a random "eye for an eye" to win vs a paladin.
Editor of the Heartpwn Legendary Crafting Guide:
https://www.hearthpwn.com/forums/hearthstone-general/card-discussion/205920-legendary-tier-list-crafting-guide
it was an example that was suppose to be easy to understand, not something that happened, forgive me, i am struggling with explaining without being condescending.
here is a top deck atm who runs 10 secret and 15 cards symbiotic with secrets
https://www.hearthstonetopdecks.com/decks/secret-mage-26-legend-ohtani3-darkmoon-faire/
This has a lot more to do with the overall crummy design of the old secrets, and a lot less to do with "forced synergies". Most of the new secret cards are good outside of their secret synergy. Mage isn't very good right now, so people aren't experimenting with it much, but Sayge and Rigged Faire game and a few of the other secrets are good in almost any mage deck, not just secret mage.
Rogue secrets as of Scholomance I think are kind of the model for what secret packages in Paladin, Rogue and Mage should look like. There's only a few of them, and there're like... 4 situations where there's a payoff. If you trade, you're potentially trading into something bigger, if the rogue has a secret and you make a big tempo turn, you potentially give them all of those resources, if you play a spell, you give them resources, if you play a minion, you give them something that can trade into that minion.
Also the "punishment" for messing up is not as debilitating as mirror entity or counterspell or freezing trap are. It's just better designed both for the person playing the secrets, and the person playing against them.
No, it runs 8 secrets total but only 5 different ones.
Remember they have tried to make secret mage viable in standard for a long time already, but only now printed strong enough cards (and synergies)
Editor of the Heartpwn Legendary Crafting Guide:
https://www.hearthpwn.com/forums/hearthstone-general/card-discussion/205920-legendary-tier-list-crafting-guide
I am talking about forced design and only using secret mage as an example because 25 cards out of 30 is an extreme example, another set of forced design could be the demon hunter and warlock soul fragment package, it is also a large package 11 cards with the soul fragment tag.
it is not so much the secrets themselves it is more all their symbiotic support cards that uses the excuse (if you got a secret in play be a powercreep card) or demon hunter (if you got a soul fragment in deck be a powercreep card) we also got a libram package and in druid a guardian animal package, forced synergy around a keyword like beast, secret, libram, soul fragment, I could even say overload... but it has downsides which the other keywords dont.
the issue is not the packages it is how large and good they are compared to other cards
This... isn't a problem. Not every deck even wants every soul fragment card. Demon Warlock decks maybe run some of the soul fragment generators but don't run the 3 mana damage-dealing card because it's not a demon. (In fact I think this is common in current Tickatus builds)
I made a control demon hunter deck where I didn't want lapidary, just the healing/tempo from the fragment generators and the 3 damage AoE.
Also none of these synergies are broken. You can run decks without any synergy.
Fundamentally I just don't see the issue myself.
maybe that is the difference between whatever rank you are and a top legend player who makes his own decks.
also Iv not stated obviously I am talking about viable competitive decks in the top theirs that I want to see preform with an average of at least above 51%...
this whole subject is maybe just to complex for a forum talk and ill not respond further because it has been rather disappointing
Sorry Mr 'Top Legend' player, it seems we are not good enough players to understand/agree with your point of view. By the way, isn't 2k legend in wild kind of 'dumpster legend' ?
Creating synergies is something that is viable - it's done in every CCG and ECCG I have ever seen.
That being said, My question for the OP, the idea of "forced synergy" does this mean you feel that Hearthstone, in it's current state, makes it difficult for players to create viable decks without using specific cards due to the synergies between them?
Personally the observation I have with "Forced synergy" is that only certain classes seem to suffer from that, however, that aspect is also what makes them top ranking. Odd-paladin, Kaza-priest, JadeDruid, (insert any deck named after a themed synergy).
Using secrets as your base does keep it simple, but that is a problem, synergies are necessary but how do you determine when it's a "powercreep" mechanic vs and actual good idea. Secret Mage, Secret Hunter, Secret Paladin, all classes using similar synergies does that mean all 3 should be nerfed on the synergy level?
What of dead synergies like Freeze Shaman, it's a dead idea, should it be fixed or removed completely?
I guess with all of these questions, I should pose this in a single question:
How would you fix it?
Cute, ineffective, but cute.
I would need to spend a large amount of time analyzing in order to answer that question and frankly I am not that much invested that ill do that for free, so till the day that never comes that I get paid to fix the game ill just complain about the stuff I don't like and let other people sweat over how to fix it
Love the candidness XD
Keep carrying on !
Cute, ineffective, but cute.