I think if you are going to go through all the work of making and supporting a new class, there should be a reason for doing so. That class should be fresh and novel. It should play differently than the classes already in the game.
Demon Hunter wasn't fresh and novel. It was just another tempo class. Well, with a little bit of eveything thrown on top.
I think it should have had more of a boutique focus. Be something new and specific, and not just a potpourri of existing cards/classes/playstyles. LIke what? Maybe a class focused on graveyard manipulation. Not just random stuff, but actual picking cards. Maybe something like a C'thun class, where your minions work synergistically together to drop a bomb later. Maybe your class has some great cards but suffers a drawback, mabye you start every match with 5 random legendaries in your deck. I don't know. Something that feels totally different than the other classes. You could still have outcast. That's a decent start. But, you needed to go further. The game really didn't need the Demon Hunter class you gave us. It needed something more outside the box.
I agree. The DH class as a whole feels pretty hollow and single-minded. That said though, I do often see people complaining about how Demon Hunter can do basically everything: tempo, heal, control, etc
So may there's something in that? I don't know. All I do know is that the class has never felt fun to either play or play against for the most part.
Big fan of DH. Don't main it, but think it's been a great addition to the game. Limited RNG, interesting flavour and good for new or returning players.
Starting HS now is a time-intensive and/or expensive endeavour. It took me the better part of two years to get a halfway decent standard collection. DH allows newbies to play competitive decks without too much difficulty.
It should play differently than the classes already in the game.
I agree that it should play differently.
I think they really had some interesting ideas, outcast being one of the better ones. But the problem was that so many of the class cards just work so well as tempo cards that it seems like you're not utilizing the class properly if you do anything other than swing face.
I would say the hero power is another big reason why it is the way it is. I mean, if the hero power instead was something like, "give a demon +1/+1" wouldn't it be safe to reason that playing a minion focused demon deck would be the strongest game plan?
Maybe the next class they add will be something more unique, more controlly and not designed around hero attacks at all.
Noone loves tempo. Ye olde shaman was the perfect example of TEMPO class, what blizzard did to him? Nerfed into pile of useless shit with weird mechanics.
AND THEN they added one more perfect example of tempo class called "dh" because shaman was no longer able to show that amount of tempo as he shown before. So they set up shaman from tempo class to SLOW AND WEIRD SHIT and just replaced it with a new class.
I don't love it and I don't hate it. I think it has some super interesting cards (mainly outcast cards, and especially Star Student Stelina), but also some super annoying and uninteresting cards (like Metamorphosis and Glaivebound Adept). But inherently, I don't think the class itself is a failure; I think it's how people have chosen to play it. There seem to be a lot of innovative DH decks and combos that exist, but that no one plays because they're more control-based than tempo.
I think it was a great addition to the game. I dropped hearthstone for over a year and came back for Ashes of Outland. Demon Hunter actually allowed me to play a strong fun deck without having to spend a bunch of money on the game. Additionally, a few of my friends decided to give the game a try when I got back into it and they all agree Demon Hunter was a big help for giving them a class to start out as with a clear gameplan and at an affordable cost
Full disclosure - I hate the DH class, but always try to be impartial and objective in things, so here's my two cents.
What counts as a failure? Plenty people play it, so it's no a failure on that front. If you assume there's only a small number of deck arcehtypes (control, aggro, tempo, combo) there's no reason to think that it would (or should) be different from those. The issue in this regard is that the only viable deck appears to be tempo (but is that any different from priest who can only really play control?).
Where I think it does fall down (aside from the OP cards that I still think remain) is that the random generated cards might be too predictable. Take Cobalt Spellkin - he only has a choice of 6 spells which gives a pretty good chance of getting whatever you were looking for. Compare that with mage who has 12 one mana cards (discounting quests) in standard and you can see where the issue lies. Aside from SHaman (who only has 7 one mana spells in standard) all the other classes have much more variability.
I think this limited deck choice create the main issue with the class. They just don't have enough cards to flesh out some other decent decks. I would love for "big demon" DH to be a thing, but it isn't. There just aren't enough cards to make it work.
I think after a couple of expansions and a few nerfs cough * Skull of Gul'dan, Blade Dance * cough it will seem like it's just another class.
I do think the one mana hero power might problematic in the future though. Its fine balance wise compared to all the others, but it probably pushes the class too far towards tempo based decks in the same way that the hunter hero power pushes decks towards the aggro/face decks. That in itself might limit the options for the class.
Constructed has always just been a race to the most broken thing you can first. I mean you mention graveyard manipualtion?...Like that is what the game needs, more rez priest? ...more massive mana cheated minions all at once?
Atleast Demon Hunter is relatively honest in that respect - its fast and efficient (which is it's identity, for what its worth) and does everything fairly well, but it doesn't slap you from out of nowhere like a lot of the other classes.
Constructed has always just been a race to the most broken thing you can first. I mean you mention graveyard manipualtion?...Like that is what the game needs, more rez priest? ...more massive mana cheated minions all at once?
Atleast Demon Hunter is relatively honest in that respect - its fast and efficient (which is it's identity, for what its worth) and does everything fairly well, but it doesn't slap you from out of nowhere like a lot of the other classes.
It absolutely does slap you in the face - quite literally. I just played a game where I have a 6/12 on the board with lifesteal (and 30 health). He cleared it, developed a board (5/5) and did 12 damage to my face all for "8" mana.
I think that's the main issue with the class at the moment (as I see it).
He also drew 10 more cards than me during that game (which probably lasted a whole 11 turns) but that's a whole other issue with the classes.
Constructed has always just been a race to the most broken thing you can first. I mean you mention graveyard manipualtion?...Like that is what the game needs, more rez priest? ...more massive mana cheated minions all at once?
Atleast Demon Hunter is relatively honest in that respect - its fast and efficient (which is it's identity, for what its worth) and does everything fairly well, but it doesn't slap you from out of nowhere like a lot of the other classes.
Exactly, at least you know he will slap you in the face and play Kayn Sunfury if you have a taunt or clear your whole board and still slap you in the face. If you play against small spell mage you are in for a suprise every time and often get steamrolled by rng.
Well, I see your point, but I think Demon Hunter was a great addition to the game. I just wanted that one deck that is fast, but isn't braindead aggro and has little to no randomness and card generation. Demon Hunter is amazing for that. Also, for me at least, the flavor of the cards and heroes I play makes me feel better about the game, and Demon Hunter has lots of great flavor.
Target audienced, skill insulting, inhumane, cash cow. That sums it all up. In the realm of skill, balance and fairness only humanoids not humans could invent something like that. Exploiting base notions. What have we become in order to increase pack selling?
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Noone loves tempo. Ye olde shaman was the perfect example of TEMPO class, what blizzard did to him? Nerfed into pile of useless shit with weird mechanics.
AND THEN they added one more perfect example of tempo class called "dh" because shaman was no longer able to show that amount of tempo as he shown before. So they set up shaman from tempo class to SLOW AND WEIRD SHIT and just replaced it with a new class.
Which old shaman decks did you have in mind? Originally, Shaman was about overcosted overload cards. Later, Shaman has been tier 1 on the back of various OP cards (FF, TFB, Tunnel etc.) but I think Rogue has always played the pure tempo game better (clearing and building board on the same time.)
I feel DH is stepping on the toes much more than shaman, which is more about board presence and elemental spells. Heck, the "outcast" and weapon/attack synergies could be seamlessly introduced in rogue instead of making a new class.
Noone loves tempo. Ye olde shaman was the perfect example of TEMPO class, what blizzard did to him? Nerfed into pile of useless shit with weird mechanics.
AND THEN they added one more perfect example of tempo class called "dh" because shaman was no longer able to show that amount of tempo as he shown before. So they set up shaman from tempo class to SLOW AND WEIRD SHIT and just replaced it with a new class.
Shaman was never a tempo class by base design. It was a class that was/is heavily influenced by RNG (a natural by product of their hero power) as well as the unique mechanic of “borrowing” mana from future turns.
It had a spot where its tempo was insane via overtuned tunnel trog/totem golem/4 mana 7/7. Having this spurt of being the best tempo deck doesn’t make the class a tempo class though.
Noone loves tempo. Ye olde shaman was the perfect example of TEMPO class, what blizzard did to him? Nerfed into pile of useless shit with weird mechanics.
AND THEN they added one more perfect example of tempo class called "dh" because shaman was no longer able to show that amount of tempo as he shown before. So they set up shaman from tempo class to SLOW AND WEIRD SHIT and just replaced it with a new class.
Which old shaman decks did you have in mind? Originally, Shaman was about overcosted overload cards. Later, Shaman has been tier 1 on the back of various OP cards (FF, TFB, Tunnel etc.) but I think Rogue has always played the pure tempo game better (clearing and building board on the same time.)
I feel DH is stepping on the toes much more than shaman, which is more about board presence and elemental spells. Heck, the "outcast" and weapon/attack synergies could be seamlessly introduced in rogue instead of making a new class.
Exactly this. It also made me laugh when people though DH had/has the best hero power in the game. It baffles me that people don’t realize that rogues HP is strictly DH’s but better, aside from the fact that it is “unusable” if you have a better weapon equipped.
If rogue had as many “after your/if your hero attacked this turn” cards, it would be much more apparent.
I think if you are going to go through all the work of making and supporting a new class, there should be a reason for doing so. That class should be fresh and novel. It should play differently than the classes already in the game.
Demon Hunter wasn't fresh and novel. It was just another tempo class. Well, with a little bit of eveything thrown on top.
I think it should have had more of a boutique focus. Be something new and specific, and not just a potpourri of existing cards/classes/playstyles. LIke what? Maybe a class focused on graveyard manipulation. Not just random stuff, but actual picking cards. Maybe something like a C'thun class, where your minions work synergistically together to drop a bomb later. Maybe your class has some great cards but suffers a drawback, mabye you start every match with 5 random legendaries in your deck. I don't know. Something that feels totally different than the other classes. You could still have outcast. That's a decent start. But, you needed to go further. The game really didn't need the Demon Hunter class you gave us. It needed something more outside the box.
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I have seen some really great fan created classes and cards. I wish Blizzard would offer to cut someone a check and adopt some of that content.
I agree. The DH class as a whole feels pretty hollow and single-minded.
That said though, I do often see people complaining about how Demon Hunter can do basically everything: tempo, heal, control, etc
So may there's something in that? I don't know.
All I do know is that the class has never felt fun to either play or play against for the most part.
Big fan of DH. Don't main it, but think it's been a great addition to the game. Limited RNG, interesting flavour and good for new or returning players.
Starting HS now is a time-intensive and/or expensive endeavour. It took me the better part of two years to get a halfway decent standard collection. DH allows newbies to play competitive decks without too much difficulty.
I agree that it should play differently.
I think they really had some interesting ideas, outcast being one of the better ones. But the problem was that so many of the class cards just work so well as tempo cards that it seems like you're not utilizing the class properly if you do anything other than swing face.
I would say the hero power is another big reason why it is the way it is. I mean, if the hero power instead was something like, "give a demon +1/+1" wouldn't it be safe to reason that playing a minion focused demon deck would be the strongest game plan?
Maybe the next class they add will be something more unique, more controlly and not designed around hero attacks at all.
Noone loves tempo. Ye olde shaman was the perfect example of TEMPO class, what blizzard did to him? Nerfed into pile of useless shit with weird mechanics.
AND THEN they added one more perfect example of tempo class called "dh" because shaman was no longer able to show that amount of tempo as he shown before. So they set up shaman from tempo class to SLOW AND WEIRD SHIT and just replaced it with a new class.
I don't love it and I don't hate it. I think it has some super interesting cards (mainly outcast cards, and especially Star Student Stelina), but also some super annoying and uninteresting cards (like Metamorphosis and Glaivebound Adept). But inherently, I don't think the class itself is a failure; I think it's how people have chosen to play it. There seem to be a lot of innovative DH decks and combos that exist, but that no one plays because they're more control-based than tempo.
I think it was a great addition to the game. I dropped hearthstone for over a year and came back for Ashes of Outland. Demon Hunter actually allowed me to play a strong fun deck without having to spend a bunch of money on the game. Additionally, a few of my friends decided to give the game a try when I got back into it and they all agree Demon Hunter was a big help for giving them a class to start out as with a clear gameplan and at an affordable cost
I honestly think they did a good job with the class, it feels unique to me, and it took a while, but it's also balanced now
Full disclosure - I hate the DH class, but always try to be impartial and objective in things, so here's my two cents.
What counts as a failure? Plenty people play it, so it's no a failure on that front. If you assume there's only a small number of deck arcehtypes (control, aggro, tempo, combo) there's no reason to think that it would (or should) be different from those. The issue in this regard is that the only viable deck appears to be tempo (but is that any different from priest who can only really play control?).
Where I think it does fall down (aside from the OP cards that I still think remain) is that the random generated cards might be too predictable. Take Cobalt Spellkin - he only has a choice of 6 spells which gives a pretty good chance of getting whatever you were looking for. Compare that with mage who has 12 one mana cards (discounting quests) in standard and you can see where the issue lies. Aside from SHaman (who only has 7 one mana spells in standard) all the other classes have much more variability.
I think this limited deck choice create the main issue with the class. They just don't have enough cards to flesh out some other decent decks. I would love for "big demon" DH to be a thing, but it isn't. There just aren't enough cards to make it work.
I think after a couple of expansions and a few nerfs cough * Skull of Gul'dan, Blade Dance * cough it will seem like it's just another class.
I do think the one mana hero power might problematic in the future though. Its fine balance wise compared to all the others, but it probably pushes the class too far towards tempo based decks in the same way that the hunter hero power pushes decks towards the aggro/face decks. That in itself might limit the options for the class.
Constructed has always just been a race to the most broken thing you can first. I mean you mention graveyard manipualtion?...Like that is what the game needs, more rez priest? ...more massive mana cheated minions all at once?
Atleast Demon Hunter is relatively honest in that respect - its fast and efficient (which is it's identity, for what its worth) and does everything fairly well, but it doesn't slap you from out of nowhere like a lot of the other classes.
It absolutely does slap you in the face - quite literally. I just played a game where I have a 6/12 on the board with lifesteal (and 30 health). He cleared it, developed a board (5/5) and did 12 damage to my face all for "8" mana.
I think that's the main issue with the class at the moment (as I see it).
He also drew 10 more cards than me during that game (which probably lasted a whole 11 turns) but that's a whole other issue with the classes.
Exactly, at least you know he will slap you in the face and play Kayn Sunfury if you have a taunt or clear your whole board and still slap you in the face. If you play against small spell mage you are in for a suprise every time and often get steamrolled by rng.
I guess if that was the objective of the class then i would agree it wasnt a failure.
But didnt we already have the Hunter class to fill this role?
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Demon Hunter is so aggro, it makes Hunter decks feel like mid range decks.
Well, I see your point, but I think Demon Hunter was a great addition to the game. I just wanted that one deck that is fast, but isn't braindead aggro and has little to no randomness and card generation. Demon Hunter is amazing for that. Also, for me at least, the flavor of the cards and heroes I play makes me feel better about the game, and Demon Hunter has lots of great flavor.
Target audienced, skill insulting, inhumane, cash cow. That sums it all up. In the realm of skill, balance and fairness only humanoids not humans could invent something like that. Exploiting base notions. What have we become in order to increase pack selling?
We make our world significant through the courage of our questions and the depth of our answers.
Which old shaman decks did you have in mind? Originally, Shaman was about overcosted overload cards. Later, Shaman has been tier 1 on the back of various OP cards (FF, TFB, Tunnel etc.) but I think Rogue has always played the pure tempo game better (clearing and building board on the same time.)
I feel DH is stepping on the toes much more than shaman, which is more about board presence and elemental spells. Heck, the "outcast" and weapon/attack synergies could be seamlessly introduced in rogue instead of making a new class.
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Shaman was never a tempo class by base design. It was a class that was/is heavily influenced by RNG (a natural by product of their hero power) as well as the unique mechanic of “borrowing” mana from future turns.
It had a spot where its tempo was insane via overtuned tunnel trog/totem golem/4 mana 7/7. Having this spurt of being the best tempo deck doesn’t make the class a tempo class though.
Exactly this. It also made me laugh when people though DH had/has the best hero power in the game. It baffles me that people don’t realize that rogues HP is strictly DH’s but better, aside from the fact that it is “unusable” if you have a better weapon equipped.
If rogue had as many “after your/if your hero attacked this turn” cards, it would be much more apparent.